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Thread: NYP: Safety net: New Jets DBs brought in to stop Patriots TEs

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by CleatMarks View Post
    Not at all. BB has drafted what...12 TEs since he's been here (9 long before Revis and Cro)? He finally hit on a couple. This doesn't even count the 5 or 6 he's brought in during free agency.

    Dave Stachelski
    Jabari Holloway
    Arther Love
    Daniel Graham
    Spencer Nead
    Ben Watson
    Andy Stokes
    Dave Thomas
    Garret Mills
    Gronk
    Hernandez
    Lee Smith
    Gronk and Hernandez were higher picks than those other scrubs though right?

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by endgameeugenics View Post
    Gronk and Hernandez were higher picks than those other scrubs though right?
    Not at all. In fact, many were higher picks. I'd have to go back through but a couple were first rounders.

    Gronk was a second round and Hernandez was a 4th rounder.

    Graham and Watson were first rounders. Thomas was a 3rd rounder....there are others who are at least a round higher than Hernandez.

    If the Pats were drafting because of Revis and Gronk/Hernandez was the answer, they would have picked them earlier.

    Bottom line is that BB has always liked TEs... I think he's been looking for a combo like this but has never hit on it.
    Last edited by CleatMarks; 10-18-2012 at 01:52 PM.

  3. #23
    Other than Gronk and Hernandez, Graham and Watson are the only ones I remember

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by endgameeugenics View Post
    Other than Gronk and Hernandez, Graham and Watson are the only ones I remember
    He's had lots... as I said in the previous post, he drafts them and has for years. I think what he has now is what he's always wanted but missed on in the draft. Look how many TEs they've brought from free agency in just this year and they already have those two...he loves TEs.


    Don't read too much into it...it's his fetish.

    also, you didn't hear about the others because they washed out... if Gronk or Hernandez washed out, they would be unknown as well...nobody remembers the draft misses unless they were supposed to be all world coming in.
    Last edited by CleatMarks; 10-18-2012 at 02:00 PM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by CleatMarks View Post
    Not at all. In fact, many were higher picks. I'd have to go back through but a couple were first rounders.

    Gronk was a second round and Hernandez was a 4th rounder.

    Graham and Watson were first rounders. Thomas was a 3rd rounder....there are others who are at least a round higher than Hernandez.

    If the Pats were drafting because of Revis and Gronk/Hernandez was the answer, they would have picked them earlier.

    Bottom line is that BB has always liked TEs... I think he's been looking for a combo like this but has never hit on it.
    Right, but Gronk/Hernandez were not 2nd and 4th rounders based off talent. You're being a little misleading.

    Gronk fell to the 2nd because he had a neck issue, kind of like why Heath Miller went from consensus top 15 pick to bottom of the 1st round back in 2005.

    Hernandez fell because (correct me if I am partially or completely wrong) he failed a drug test and/or said in interviews that his family sold weed when he was younger.

    So basically Gronk was 1st round material and Hernandez 2nd/3rd material based on talent. The big draft negatives, injury and character concerns respectively, have not reared their ugly heads to this point.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Rexipus Rex View Post
    Right, but Gronk/Hernandez were not 2nd and 4th rounders based off talent. You're being a little misleading.

    Gronk fell to the 2nd because he had a neck issue, kind of like why Heath Miller went from consensus top 15 pick to bottom of the 1st round back in 2005.

    Hernandez fell because (correct me if I am partially or completely wrong) he failed a drug test and/or said in interviews that his family sold weed when he was younger.

    So basically Gronk was 1st round material and Hernandez 2nd/3rd material base on talent. The big draft negatives, injury and character concerns respectively, have not reared their ugly heads to this point.
    What's that got to do with Revis?
    If the league felt they were first round talent, they would have taken them...yes they both dropped because they were a risk.

    They weren't drafted specifically as the answer to anyone though. If they knew they would be the answer to anything, you would pick them higher and not risk losing them. BB has drafted more TEs than probably any other team. They were a risk and it worked out.

    If BB felt he *had* to answer Revis, he would have picked a sure thing and a lot higher than the 4th round...

    You guys are looking back and saying "these are the guys" when the only reason you even know their names is because they panned out. Ben Watson was supposed to be the greatest thing ever too...

    You guys think everything is about the Jets...It isn't. This is a case where BB likes TEs.

    If the draft were held today, would Hernandez still be a 4th rounder?
    Last edited by CleatMarks; 10-18-2012 at 02:33 PM.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by CleatMarks View Post
    You guys think everything is about the Jets...It isn't. This is a case where BB likes TEs.
    BB is from Mark Bavaro days, took him to Cleveland after NYG.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by jetrider View Post
    BB is from Mark Bavaro days, took him to Cleveland after NYG.
    Right, that's just his thing. It just so happens, he got lucky on the draft this time...

    He drafted a TE this year. He'll draft one next year too if he likes one... that's just his thing.

    It's like Jon Gruden collecting qbs. Can never have enough.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by CleatMarks View Post
    What's that got to do with Revis?
    If the league felt they were first round talent, they would have taken them...yes they both dropped because they were a risk.
    Who said I said it had anything to do with Revis? Don't rope me into the rest of the crowd. I can view the Patriots objectively, even if I think they're the NFL equivalent of the Duke Blue Devils -- obnoxious yet illustrious coach surrounded by a bunch of punk white boys who all do their best to go to outrageous lengths to best (legally) manipulate the rules to their advantage.

    And I don't think you understand how the draft works then based off your second comment.

    - Why was Janoris Jenkins a second round draft pick this year?

    - Why did Dez Bryant fall to 24 in 2010? Carlos Dunlap to the second round that year too?

    - Heath Miller in 2005 like I previously mentioned?

    - Warren Sapp falling to #12 back in 1995?

    Quote Originally Posted by CleatMarks View Post
    They weren't drafted specifically as the answer to anyone though. If they knew they would be the answer to anything, you would pick them higher and not risk losing them. BB has drafted more TEs than probably any other team. They were a risk and it worked out.

    If BB felt he *had* to answer Revis, he would have picked a sure thing and a lot higher than the 4th round...

    You guys are looking back and saying "these are the guys" when the only reason you even know their names is because they panned out. Ben Watson was supposed to be the greatest thing ever too...

    You guys think everything is about the Jets...It isn't. This is a case where BB likes TEs.
    I've always known about Belichick drafting TEs.

    He tried to do the same thing as Gronkowski/Hernandez when he drafted Daniel Graham and Ben Watson both in the first round in two years apart from each other. The only problem was that Graham was too one-dimensional as a blocker and Watson, despite his athleticism, was an inconsistent pass-catcher.

    What I don't know is how you are so certain that Belichick was always adamant about running the style of offense he is now.

    They certainly weren't running that offense early in 2010 before they shipped off Randy Moss. Part of it was because Gronkowski and Hernandez were a bit green at the time, but it was also because they thought they could still be dominant vertically. The reason why they changed their offense midseason in 2010 is threefold:

    1) Moss's talent was declining and Belichick realized it before the rest of the league did.

    2) Tom Brady, while still outstanding in nearly every aspect, was slowly declining as a deep ball passer. I'll argue this one to the grave...for as amazing as Brady is and has been, his deep ball isn't what it once was.

    3) Belichick always tries to be ahead of the curve when it comes to offensive schemes. By the time the league started to catch up to the Pats offense of 2007-2009 (and the very beginning of 2010), Belichick morphed the offense and it took 10+ games before Rex was able to crack the riddle in the playoffs. If you don't think the play of Revis and the acquisition of Cromartie had any inkling of influence on Belichick's transformation, then you're a bigger homer than I thought.

    Was it a big influence? Probably not. He probably realized that certain teams have players that can cover outside the numbers, but nearly nobody had players (LBs/Ss mainly) that could cover shifty slot receivers or TEs. That's Belichick being ahead of the curve, but you're completely fooling yourself if you don't believe certain teams draft players while keeping the division rivals in the back of their minds...even your mighty Patriots.

    Quote Originally Posted by CleatMarks View Post
    If the draft were held today, would Hernandez still be a 4th rounder?
    Of course not if you taking the Aaron Hernandez based of the last 2.5 years of his professional career. I don't know what kind of hindsight is 20/20 question you're asking. If he went to a team like Cincinnati or Oakland back in 2010, who the hell knows how his career would have ended up...he could've easily ended up like Chris Henry or JaMarcus.

  10. #30
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    Jake Ballard is waiting also. Fells is decent blocker and actually laid out for a nice catch last week.

    Wonder what BB could do with a 4 TE set?

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Rexipus Rex View Post
    Who said I said it had anything to do with Revis? Don't rope me into the rest of the crowd. I can view the Patriots objectively, even if I think they're the NFL equivalent of the Duke Blue Devils -- obnoxious yet illustrious coach surrounded by a bunch of punk white boys who all do their best to go to outrageous lengths to best (legally) manipulate the rules to their advantage.

    And I don't think you understand how the draft works then based off your second comment.

    - Why was Janoris Jenkins a second round draft pick this year?

    - Why did Dez Bryant fall to 24 in 2010? Carlos Dunlap to the second round that year too?

    - Heath Miller in 2005 like I previously mentioned?

    - Warren Sapp falling to #12 back in 1995?



    I've always known about Belichick drafting TEs.

    He tried to do the same thing as Gronkowski/Hernandez when he drafted Daniel Graham and Ben Watson both in the first round in two years apart from each other. The only problem was that Graham was too one-dimensional as a blocker and Watson, despite his athleticism, was an inconsistent pass-catcher.

    What I don't know is how you are so certain that Belichick was always adamant about running the style of offense he is now.

    They certainly weren't running that offense early in 2010 before they shipped off Randy Moss. Part of it was because Gronkowski and Hernandez were a bit green at the time, but it was also because they thought they could still be dominant vertically. The reason why they changed their offense midseason in 2010 is threefold:

    1) Moss's talent was declining and Belichick realized it before the rest of the league did.

    2) Tom Brady, while still outstanding in nearly every aspect, was slowly declining as a deep ball passer. I'll argue this one to the grave...for as amazing as Brady is and has been, his deep ball isn't what it once was.

    3) Belichick always tries to be ahead of the curve when it comes to offensive schemes. By the time the league started to catch up to the Pats offense of 2007-2009 (and the very beginning of 2010), Belichick morphed the offense and it took 10+ games before Rex was able to crack the riddle in the playoffs. If you don't think the play of Revis and the acquisition of Cromartie had any inkling of influence on Belichick's transformation, then you're a bigger homer than I thought.

    Was it a big influence? Probably not. He probably realized that certain teams have players that can cover outside the numbers, but nearly nobody had players (LBs/Ss mainly) that could cover shifty slot receivers or TEs. That's Belichick being ahead of the curve, but you're completely fooling yourself if you don't believe certain teams draft players while keeping the division rivals in the back of their minds...even your mighty Patriots.



    Of course not if you taking the Aaron Hernandez based of the last 2.5 years of his professional career. I don't know what kind of hindsight is 20/20 question you're asking. If he went to a team like Cincinnati or Oakland back in 2010, who the hell knows how his career would have ended up...he could've easily ended up like Chris Henry or JaMarcus.

    Incredible post. A perfect summary of the evolution of the Patriots offense over the last several years. Can't believe I read it on a Jets board.

  12. #32
    That was the original point that was made if you go back. The poster said that Hernandez and Gronk were in response to Revis. His argument was how they were in response.

    They weren't. They just happened to work out. As far as the style of offense, I said "I think what he has now is what he's always wanted but missed on in the draft" (meaning TEs) that is now taken as certain?

    Since the discussion is degrading again with little jabs that have nothing to do with the topic, I'll leave it at that. I've already engaged in enough of those to fill my quota for the day.
    Last edited by CleatMarks; 10-18-2012 at 03:21 PM.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by CleatMarks View Post
    That was the original point that was made if you go back. The poster said that Hernandez and Gronk were in response to Revis. His argument was how they were in response.

    They weren't. They just happened to work out. As far as the style of offense, I said "I think what he has now is what he's always wanted but missed on in the draft" (meaning TEs) that is now taken as certain?

    Since the discussion is degrading again with little jabs that have nothing to do with the topic, I'll leave it at that. I've already engaged in enough of those to fill my quota for the day.

    Degrading? No need to crawl back into your shell when someone fairly and objectively observes and critiques Belichick. Man, you Patriots fans are more sensitive and obnoxious when it comes to your team than Yankees fans (and this is coming from a Yankees fan).

    As for me, I'll leave it as this:

    Quote Originally Posted by ASG0531 View Post
    Incredible post. A perfect summary of the evolution of the Patriots offense over the last several years. Can't believe I read it on a Jets board.

  14. #34
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    Not to hijack anything, but it makes sense that BB would appreciate Tebow - who's like a human Swiss Army knife with a couple more blades than a TE or whatever.

    BB looks for innovative ways to utilize talent. (see: Woodhead, Jeff Demps)

    And while Sparano sandbags Tebow, IMO, with vanilla from the Ricky Williams Ronnie Brown playbook, I'd be terrified to see TT in NE.

    Hate to say it, but NE is probably the ideal place for Tebow.

  15. #35
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    ... good read ...

    ... love the upgrade a S ... landry is my fav 2012 JET ...

    ... i'm sure rex has been all over landry's *$$ this week about taking down gronk ... like parcells did with mawae regards that NT buff had back then ... believe it was sam adams ... WE BROUGHT YOU IN TO TAKE OUT/DOWN gronk ...










    l_j_r

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Bachelors III View Post
    You don't think that drafting (Gronk-A.Hern) and scheming multiple tight ends sets had anything to do with Revis already being here and Cro traded a month before their draft?
    BOoM!!!!

  17. #37
    Who cares about Gronk and Hernandez. Landry is going to be wearing their knee caps around his neck like trophies next week.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Rexipus Rex View Post
    Degrading? No need to crawl back into your shell when someone fairly and objectively observes and critiques Belichick. Man, you Patriots fans are more sensitive and obnoxious when it comes to your team than Yankees fans (and this is coming from a Yankees fan).

    As for me, I'll leave it as this:


    I just can't see anything wrong with what Rexipus said.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetrider View Post
    Not to hijack anything, but it makes sense that BB would appreciate Tebow - who's like a human Swiss Army knife with a couple more blades than a TE or whatever.

    BB looks for innovative ways to utilize talent. (see: Woodhead, Jeff Demps)

    And while Sparano sandbags Tebow, IMO, with vanilla from the Ricky Williams Ronnie Brown playbook, I'd be terrified to see TT in NE.

    Hate to say it, but NE is probably the ideal place for Tebow.
    Its been 6 games - the universe of plays and ways to use him haven't been fully established yet.

    Plus, his role as Personal Protector and the 3 fakes out of that alignment have been very creative. Westhoff has really found something here....the 4th and short snap to Tebow is extremely effective. I have no doubt that the rule prohibiting defenses from putting a man over Center will enable that play to be run over and over.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rexipus Rex View Post
    Who said I said it had anything to do with Revis? Don't rope me into the rest of the crowd. I can view the Patriots objectively, even if I think they're the NFL equivalent of the Duke Blue Devils -- obnoxious yet illustrious coach surrounded by a bunch of punk white boys who all do their best to go to outrageous lengths to best (legally) manipulate the rules to their advantage.

    And I don't think you understand how the draft works then based off your second comment.

    - Why was Janoris Jenkins a second round draft pick this year?

    - Why did Dez Bryant fall to 24 in 2010? Carlos Dunlap to the second round that year too?

    - Heath Miller in 2005 like I previously mentioned?

    - Warren Sapp falling to #12 back in 1995?



    I've always known about Belichick drafting TEs.

    He tried to do the same thing as Gronkowski/Hernandez when he drafted Daniel Graham and Ben Watson both in the first round in two years apart from each other. The only problem was that Graham was too one-dimensional as a blocker and Watson, despite his athleticism, was an inconsistent pass-catcher.

    What I don't know is how you are so certain that Belichick was always adamant about running the style of offense he is now.

    They certainly weren't running that offense early in 2010 before they shipped off Randy Moss. Part of it was because Gronkowski and Hernandez were a bit green at the time, but it was also because they thought they could still be dominant vertically. The reason why they changed their offense midseason in 2010 is threefold:

    1) Moss's talent was declining and Belichick realized it before the rest of the league did.

    2) Tom Brady, while still outstanding in nearly every aspect, was slowly declining as a deep ball passer. I'll argue this one to the grave...for as amazing as Brady is and has been, his deep ball isn't what it once was.

    3) Belichick always tries to be ahead of the curve when it comes to offensive schemes. By the time the league started to catch up to the Pats offense of 2007-2009 (and the very beginning of 2010), Belichick morphed the offense and it took 10+ games before Rex was able to crack the riddle in the playoffs. If you don't think the play of Revis and the acquisition of Cromartie had any inkling of influence on Belichick's transformation, then you're a bigger homer than I thought.

    Was it a big influence? Probably not. He probably realized that certain teams have players that can cover outside the numbers, but nearly nobody had players (LBs/Ss mainly) that could cover shifty slot receivers or TEs. That's Belichick being ahead of the curve, but you're completely fooling yourself if you don't believe certain teams draft players while keeping the division rivals in the back of their minds...even your mighty Patriots.



    Of course not if you taking the Aaron Hernandez based of the last 2.5 years of his professional career. I don't know what kind of hindsight is 20/20 question you're asking. If he went to a team like Cincinnati or Oakland back in 2010, who the hell knows how his career would have ended up...he could've easily ended up like Chris Henry or JaMarcus.
    Wow, that's a damn good, and accurate post.

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