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Thread: Just in Time

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by doggin94it View Post
    If you want them to behave like a civilized nation, stop rewarding uncivilized behavior.
    Bomb the savages into the stone age.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post
    Bomb the savages into the stone age.
    You should save the sarcastic responses for me. Doggin has been well reasoned and factual in all of his posts on this topic. If it wasn't sarcasm then welcome aboard the team. It is nice that you have finally seen the light though the stone age may be a bit harsh. I'd send them back to the Bronze age myself. The trip back in time to the bronze age would only be about 100 years or so ago for the savages.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefst2000 View Post
    You should save the sarcastic responses for me. Doggin has been well reasoned and factual in all of his posts on this topic. If it wasn't sarcasm then welcome aboard the team. It is nice that you have finally seen the light though the stone age may be a bit harsh. I'd send them back to the Bronze age myself. The trip back in time to the bronze age would only be about 100 years or so ago for the savages.


    We have a difference in opinion. I don't believe doing the right thing is a reward anymore than doing the wrong thing is a punishment. Not settling property that is in dispute is not a stick or a carrot, it's simply wrong. I don't believe characterizing it as simply a punishment the way one would treat a petulant child is reasonable characterization of what those settlements are.

    As far as it goes I admire both you and Doggin for taking a position and arguing it rationally. We simply have a difference of opinion.

    As far as it goes while I'm disappointed that Israel has become more right wing, less secular and less inclined to really pursue a two state solution which I believe is in the best interest of Israel. I don't see Israel as a pariah state as they are often characterized, I view them as a strategic ally to the US on par with Great Britain and Canada. We should continue to support them and continue to be an honest broker for peace as long as those coming to the table are coming honestly which unfortunately doesn't exist on the other side at the moment. That said that should not prevent Israel from pursuing those goals even without a willing partner as long as they can maintain their security. I believe they can do both.

  4. #184
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    No person, country or group of mopes will ever "blow up' Israel with a nuclear bomb.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by WestCoastOffensive View Post
    No person, country or group of mopes will ever "blow up' Israel with a nuclear bomb.
    I notice you conveniently left out "extra-terrestrial attack drones".


    clever.....


    clever.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by WestCoastOffensive View Post
    No person, country or group of mopes will ever "blow up' Israel with a nuclear bomb.
    Given the opportunity, do you believe a person, country or group capable of carrying the act out?

    For example, Iran feeding weapons to Hamas isn't some radical right wing conspiracy... It's happening, including the newly acquired long range rockets that can hit Tel Aviv...

    A nuclear Iran is right around the corner... Who knows what would happen?

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by WestCoastOffensive View Post
    No person, country or group of mopes will ever "blow up' Israel with a nuclear bomb.
    Funny, not that long ago I would have said "no person, country or group of mopes will ever "blow up" the Twin Towers with an Airliner".

    In the 1930's, it was not unfamiliar to hear that Herr Hitler would "never start another European War after the Great War".

    Or that Stalin "would never starve millions of his own citizens to death, imprison and murder millions more, all in the name of industrialization and Socialism".

    The bar for what can happen gets raised daily, and those who trust in the good will of mankind often find themselves naked, bloody, kneeing before an open trench, with the cold steel of the barrel of a handgun on the base of their spine for having done so.

    There is no depth that man will not sink to when it comes to killing their fellow man over God, ideology or even the smallest issue. Anyone who thinks otherwise is naive of our species long and bloody history.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Funny, not that long ago I would have said "no person, country or group of mopes will ever "blow up" the Twin Towers with an Airliner".

    In the 1930's, it was not unfamiliar to hear that Herr Hitler would "never start another European War after the Great War".

    Or that Stalin "would never starve millions of his own citizens to death, imprison and murder millions more, all in the name of industrialization and Socialism".

    The bar for what can happen gets raised daily, and those who trust in the good will of mankind often find themselves naked, bloody, kneeing before an open trench, with the cold steel of the barrel of a handgun on the base of their spine for having done so.

    There is no depth that man will not sink to when it comes to killing their fellow man over God, ideology or even the smallest issue. Anyone who thinks otherwise is naive of our species long and bloody history.
    WW2 is a perfect example to use. Neville Chamberlain and the British left were of similar mind to left wingers here like WCO. They genuinely believed that Hitler could be appeased, he wouldn't dare start another war. He couldn't be capable of exterminating the Jews. Then you had Churchill, he was ridiculed for sounding the alarm on Hitler. He was called an extremist and a warmonger. The Neville Chamberlain types were not evil people they were simply naive, almost idealistic. It is no different IMO from the opinions here of posters like WCO and Winston that I believe a are genuinely pro Israel but still call for appeasement and weakness in their dealings with terrorists. It is a different philosophy in dealing with evil likely born from a lack of respect for /knowledge of historical events.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by acepepe View Post
    I guess teaching kids in schools throughout the middle east that Jews are the sons of monkeys and pigs is productive. Oh, that's right, we must show them our moral high ground and, of course they'll respect us and follow our ways. It's worked so far, way change now.
    Oh, ffs. It's not a question of moral high grounds or teaching by example. It's just a matter of doing the right thing because it's the right thing. And yes, avoiding false negative overgeneralizations about millions of people is the right thing.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite View Post
    Given the opportunity, do you believe a person, country or group capable of carrying the act out?

    For example, Iran feeding weapons to Hamas isn't some radical right wing conspiracy... It's happening, including the newly acquired long range rockets that can hit Tel Aviv...

    A nuclear Iran is right around the corner... Who knows what would happen?
    All good points, but let me stay on this side of the fence for 10 more seconds:

    What "unlimited resource" is going to "feed" that kind of weaponry to any fringe group; knowing that reprisal would be /game? No more HumVees with princesses, etc etc etc. Not saying it's theoretically impossible.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post
    We have a difference in opinion. I don't believe doing the right thing is a reward anymore than doing the wrong thing is a punishment. Not settling property that is in dispute is not a stick or a carrot, it's simply wrong.
    Well, let's talk this through for a bit. You believe that settlements in the West Bank are "wrong"? Why?

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefst2000 View Post
    WW2 is a perfect example to use. Neville Chamberlain and the British left were of similar mind to left wingers here like WCO. They genuinely believed that Hitler could be appeased, he wouldn't dare start another war. He couldn't be capable of exterminating the Jews. Then you had Churchill, he was ridiculed for sounding the alarm on Hitler. He was called an extremist and a warmonger. The Neville Chamberlain types were not evil people they were simply naive, almost idealistic. It is no different IMO from the opinions here of posters like WCO and Winston that I believe a are genuinely pro Israel but still call for appeasement and weakness in their dealings with terrorists. It is a different philosophy in dealing with evil likely born from a lack of respect for /knowledge of historical events.
    Funny I was waiting for the effete swipe of the Neville Chamberlain brush, thanks so much.

    I can't say it's not deserved, looking back through time. But I answered one guy, above.


    BTW, considering the Brits had "muddled through" the Blitz, they had no courage left to chase down Stalin. It wasn't personal distrust in Churchill.
    Last edited by WestCoastOffensive; 11-27-2012 at 04:20 PM.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post
    Bomb the savages into the stone age.
    BTW, it's really very simple. Just have Europeans and the left say, clearly, "we will not support a Palestinian state, and will not pressure Israel at all, unless and until the Palestinians abandon terrorism and accept the existence of Israel as a Jewish state"

    Do that, and follow through, and there's a real chance at peace.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by doggin94it View Post
    Oh, ffs. It's not a question of moral high grounds or teaching by example. It's just a matter of doing the right thing because it's the right thing. And yes, avoiding false negative overgeneralizations about millions of people is the right thing.
    You miss the psychological aspect of dealing with the 6 century heathen. ANY act of capitulation is seen as weakness and is to be exploited, no matter how small or insignificant. Your kids are "monkeys and pigs"Fine, and yours are the dung of the jackass. Childish and tit for tat, defiantly! But, It's the only way they understand, unfortunately.
    Last edited by acepepe; 11-27-2012 at 07:31 PM.

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by WestCoastOffensive View Post
    All good points, but let me stay on this side of the fence for 10 more seconds:

    What "unlimited resource" is going to "feed" that kind of weaponry to any fringe group; knowing that reprisal would be /game? No more HumVees with princesses, etc etc etc. Not saying it's theoretically impossible.
    Okay, I get the logic that no one should have the balls to try it with the world watching... Imagine the sanctions they'd have thrown their way, crippling their economy and 96% of their citizens...


  16. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite View Post
    Okay, I get the logic that no one should have the balls to try it with the world watching... Imagine the sanctions they'd have thrown their way, crippling their economy and 96% of their citizens...

    Ha! It is familiar, yes.

  17. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by WestCoastOffensive View Post
    Funny I was waiting for the effete swipe of the Neville Chamberlain brush, thanks so much.

    I can't say it's not deserved, looking back through time. But I answered one guy, above.


    BTW, considering the Brits had "muddled through" the Blitz, they had no courage left to chase down Stalin. It wasn't personal distrust in Churchill.
    Churchill sounded the alarm on Hitler in the mid 1930's. He was ignored and ridiculed. By 1938/39 around the annexation of Austria and invasion of Poland, Churchill was in an all out frenzy. Chamberlain was in denial of reality. Again I don't think he was a bad person per se' just tragically naive. His naivete cost the world hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of lives. That is the consequence of ignoring reality and underestimating the human capacity for evil. History is littered with these types. FDR himself was equally guilty. It is reprehensible that the USA waited years while Europe burned to wake up to what was happening there. It is a big reason why I can never be a pure libertarian. As much as I agree with most every social and fiscal libertarian stance, people that believe that the US should not get involved in world events or want "isolationism" simply don't understand the consequences of that type of attitude.

  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefst2000 View Post
    Churchill sounded the alarm on Hitler in the mid 1930's. He was ignored and ridiculed. By 1938/39 around the annexation of Austria and invasion of Poland, Churchill was in an all out frenzy. Chamberlain was in denial of reality. Again I don't think he was a bad person per se' just tragically naive. His naivete cost the world hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of lives. That is the consequence of ignoring reality and underestimating the human capacity for evil. History is littered with these types. FDR himself was equally guilty. It is reprehensible that the USA waited years while Europe burned to wake up to what was happening there. It is a big reason why I can never be a pure libertarian. As much as I agree with most every social and fiscal libertarian stance, people that believe that the US should not get involved in world events or want "isolationism" simply don't understand the consequences of that type of attitude.
    Riddle me this, chiefman: How are we NOT involved?



  19. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by WestCoastOffensive View Post
    Riddle me this, chiefman: How are we NOT involved?


    I was just commenting as to why I personally am not a pure libertarian.

    An another note here is a feelgood story for you:

    This happened a couple of days ago. When the too soft Israeli government did what you and Winston suggested in this thread and lifted some of the restrictions on Gazans movements as part of the cease fire deal:

    Israeli Mother Vanquishes Knife-Wielding Terrorist Scum

    By

    Naomi Ragen

    When Yael Ram-Matzpon * heard the door open at 3:30 a.m., she thought it
    was her husband returning from his job in the IDF. But when the door flung
    open and the light flicked on, she found herself face to face with a
    knife-wielding Palestinian terrorist from Gaza. Lying next to her in bed
    was her four and half year- old daughter and two year- old son. In a room
    close by, her eight and nine year old daughters lay sleeping.

    "'What do you want, I asked him. Money, food?' I got up. He told me to get
    down on the floor. I knew I wasn't doing that."

    And so began a fight to the death between an unarmed 39 year- old mother of
    four and an armed terrorist in Sde Avraham, a neighborhood in southern
    Israel's Eshkol region near Gaza; a mother who knew that only she stood
    between him and the slaughter of her innocent children. "He pushed me down
    and started to slash me," she told Israel's evening news. "And I thought:
    'Now I'm going to feel what it's like to be slashed, just like you see on
    television.'" As she speaks, we notice the long scar on her cheekbone, the
    tear in her skin under her eye and on her chin, evidence of the deadly
    weapon which sought to take away her life and the lives of her children.

    Yael, an Olympic-level horse trainer in dressage, who learned kravmagah
    during her army service, didn't panic. Instead, she threw everything she
    had at him, punching him in the face and eyes and nose, scratching and
    jabbing him --not as if, but because --her life, and the lives of her
    children depended on it. He began to throw things at her, a mirror, a
    scale, but missed. She took the moment to lead her small children to
    safety, sending her daughter to her sisters, and putting her little boy into
    the bomb shelter and locking the door. She picked up a large heavy metal
    bell, used to start horse competitions, and used it to pummel him out of
    the room and into the adjoining shower. She then locked and barricaded the
    door, flying to the kitchen to call her husband and a neighbor who was a
    sharpshooter.

    Probably realizing he had stumbled on a tigress he couldn't overcome, the
    terrorist jumped out of the window and ran. He was soon spotted and shot by
    the IDF, which although it responded with lightning speed, had allowed the
    terrorist to infiltrate in the first place. Ynet has revealed that a section
    of the security fence guarding neighborhoods close to Gaza was left open and
    unmanned, allowing the terrorist free access. New 'agreements' with Gaza now
    allow Palestinians to work the fields right up to the security fence. Such
    is the decision of our politicians.

    If not for the courage, strength, and level-headedness of this Israeli
    woman, the photos of Jewish children butchered in their beds would be
    splashed across the Israeli papers instead of the photos of campaigning
    politicians. Only Maariv put Yael and her heroic battle on its front page.
    Yediot Aharonot put it on page 25. As for the foreign press, I didn't read
    a single word about how an unarmed mother fought off a knife-weilding
    terrorist to save herself and her children. And what could be more
    newsworthy than that? Except, of course, if your paper doesn't really
    rejoice in such a victory and would rather print the blood. I have two
    words for them, and they aren't happy birthday.

    God bless Yael Ram-Matzpon and all our Israeli women, mothers and soldiers,
    who are sometimes forced to be both at the same time in order to protect
    themselves and their children with bare hands, from marauding, barbaric
    terrorist murderers who seek out babies in their beds. This time, though,
    the murderer got more than he bargained for.

  20. #200
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    Here is an interesting article for our European posters.

    November 27, 2012
    What I Saw During Operation Pillar of Defense
    By Nira Lee


    Four years ago, watching the coverage of Operation Cast Lead from the comfort of my dorm, I was a conflicted college student. As supportive as I was of Israel, I still found it painful any time I heard about civilian casualties in Gaza. What I saw portrayed in the media didn't add up: on the one hand I knew that the IDF was engaged in careful efforts to prevent civilian casualties, despite Hamas's strategy of fighting from amongst its own civilian population. Yet the media made it seem like the IDF was actively targeting civilians.
    Back then, I understood Israel's efforts at protecting civilians as a something akin to a talking point -- I had no personal involvement in the conflict. Yet I had no idea how true it is until I myself participated in last week's Operation "Pillar of Defense" as an officer in the IDF.
    When I moved to Israel and enlisted, I joined a unit called the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories (COGAT), which is devoted to civilian and humanitarian issues.
    As an International Liaison Officer in the Gaza office, my job primarily entails coordinating transfers of goods, aid, and delegations into Gaza. I work closely with representatives of the international community, and although our perspectives may differ, we maintain relationships of mutual respect born of a common goal; I am here to help them succeed in their work improving the quality of life in Gaza.
    While the day-to-day work is challenging in Gaza, I learned over the past ten days that the true test comes with crisis. At exactly the point where most militaries would use the heat of war to throw out the rulebook, we worked harder than ever to provide assistance wherever and whenever possible.
    The eight days of Operation "Pillar of Defense" have been some of the hardest I have ever known physically and emotionally. The college student from Arizona would never have thought it possible to work 20 hours a day, fueled only by adrenaline and longing for just an hour of sleep on a shelter floor -- wearing the same filthy uniform because changing, much less showering, wouldn't allow me to get to a shelter in time when the next rocket barrage hit. And no, wearing the green uniform does not mean that you aren't afraid when the sirens sound.
    Had you told me four years ago that there were IDF officers who stayed up all night under a hail of rockets, brainstorming ways to import medical supplies and food to the people of Gaza, I am not sure I would have believed you. But I can tell you it is true because I did it every night.
    What amazed me the most was the singular sense of purpose that drove everyone from the base commander to the lowest ranking soldier. We were all focused completely on our mission: to help our forces accomplish their goals without causing unnecessary harm to civilian lives or infrastructure.
    It is harder to explain the emotional roller-coaster -- how proud and relieved I felt every time a truck I coordinated entered Gaza, and how enraging it was when we had to shut down the crossing into Gaza after Hamas repeatedly targeted it. Or how invigorating it was help evacuate two injured Palestinians from the border area, only to be informed minutes later that a terrorist had detonated a bomb on a bus near my apartment in Tel Aviv.
    So after all that I see and do, nothing frustrates me more than the numbers game that is played in the media. The world talks about "disproportionate" numbers of casualties as the measure of what is right and wrong -- as if not enough Israelis were killed by Hamas for the IDF to have the right to protect its own civilians from endless rocket attacks.
    In my position, I see the surgical airstrikes, and spend many hours with the UN, ICRC, and NGO officers reviewing maps to help identify, and avoid, striking civilian sites. One of our pilots who saw a rocket aimed at Israel aborted his mission when he saw children nearby -- putting his own civilians at risk to save Gazans. At the end of the day, what these "disproportionate numbers" show is how we in Israel protect our children with elaborate shelters and missile defense systems, whereas the terror groups in Gaza hide behind theirs, using them as human shields in order to win a cynical media war.
    What's really behind the headlines and that picture on the front page? Every day, I coordinate goods with a young Gazan woman who works for an international aid organization. Last month we forged a bond when we had to run for cover together when Hamas targeted Kerem Shalom Crossing -- attacking the very aid provided to its own people. During the eight days of Operation "Pillar of Defense", not one passed without a phone call, just to check in. "Are you ok?" I would ask. "I heard they fired at your base. Please stay safe", she would reply. And every night I made her promise to call me if she needed anything. These are the things that the media fails to show the world, just as they underplay how Hamas deliberately endangers civilians on both sides of the border -- by firing indiscriminately at Israel from Gaza neighborhoods.
    Maybe stories such as these make for less exciting headlines, but if they received more attention there would perhaps be more moral clarity, and thus more peace in the Middle East.
    2nd Lt. Nira Lee is an Arizona native. She moved to Israel in 2010 and has been serving in the IDF for the past two years. She works as a liaison officer to international organizations out of the Gaza Coordination and Liaison Administration


    Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/...#ixzz2DXweHbOe

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