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Thread: Just in Time

  1. #81
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    While I agree that Israel is totally within their rights and I actually think they should be commended for their restraint since they could easily wipe out the agressors the irony pointed out in this article is not surprising..

    "No country on Earth would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders,” Says Man Who Regularly Bombs Pakistan and Yemen

    Mike Riggs|Nov. 19, 2012 1:43 pm


    Speaking in Thailand Sunday, President Obama defended Israel's counter-assault on Hamas in the Gaza Strip by saying, "There's no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders.” More from MSNBC:
    "Let's understand what the precipitating event here that's causing the current crisis and that was an ever-escalating number of missiles that were landing not just in Israeli territory but in areas that are populated, and there's no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders,” Obama said at press conference in Thailand at the start of a three-nation tour in Asia.


    “So we are fully supportive of Israel's right to defend itself from missiles landing on people's homes and workplaces and potentially killing civilians."


    "Israel has every right to expect that it does not have missiles fired into its territory."
    That is a very interesting thing to say at a time when the U.S. is regularly raining missiles down on Pakistan and Yemen.


  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeanPatsFan View Post
    Israel need to tell the rest of the world to get bent and go in and annihilate these filthy unwashed savages....
    Yeah, and leave us out of it.

  3. #83
    Let Israel destroy Hamas by any means possible. Hamas is a band of cowards
    like the Iranian supporters!

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Soberphobia View Post
    So obviously you are saying the Jews have a mandate to take over Palestine? Because the Palestinians can move elsewhere?

    You could easily make an argument that the Israelis could move elsewhere or is it acceptable to you for the Palestinians to have their land taken just because its Israel and just because they have some sort of mandate written in a thousands year old religious book?

    Look, I think the Jews have a right to their own homeland, but since that's been granted they've taken it upon themselves to absorb as much of Palestine as possible.
    Israel in fact ANNEXED territory after it was attacked several times by its neighbors. Sort of like how the U.S. annexed a good piece of the Southwest. You attack, you lose, tough.
    Frankly, let Gaza continue. Much of the West Bank should be Israel, not some unattached part of another country. If those on the West Bank want to move to Gaza- fine. An area adjacent to Jordan should be part of Jordan.
    Israel, as configured in the U.N plan was obviously a stupid plan.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by chirorob View Post
    Because in WW II, both sides were not "carpet bombing" entire cities?
    Er.. am i missing sarcasm or something? Of course both sides were annihilating civilian populations.

    US: Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

    UK: Bombing of Dresden in World War II

    Germany: London Blitz

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Soberphobia View Post
    Let me be clear - I am talking about a specific time period, up until about 1937 and I'm not saying that what the Palestinians are going through matches exactly what the Jewish population of Germany went through at that time. There are some very broad parallels, which I posted above, and it would be silly of me to equate exactly two quite different historical situations in different centuries.
    And i reassert my contention that the differences are so extreme that "broad strokes" are about as useful as comparing the assassination of Martin Luther King to that of Osama bin Laden.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soberphobia View Post
    I agree that Hamas is a radical organization targeting civilians - but I think its pretty obvious the Israeli military is doing the exact same thing - unfortunately there are radicals on both sides which means they are a long long way from any long-term peace agreement.
    I'm sure there are radicals on both sides. I haven't seen one shred of evidence that Israel is targeting civilians. And no, killing civilians with bombs, next to a military target, where you have previously dropped leaflets warning them to GTFO, is not "intentionally targeting".

    Quote Originally Posted by Soberphobia View Post
    The Jews in Germany around that time were politically involved with the Communist Party (which was banned during the 1930's at one stage), the Nazis had huge running battles with the Communists even before they assumed power. The best books to read on the subject are the Richard J Evans works - he is an acknowledged international expert on the area and has testified as an expert witness against holocaust deniers in several courts.
    I'm just asking for a verifiable example of the Jews acting as a terrorist group, looking to kill German civilians. I'm not going to read the literature you suggest to go searching for one.

    Again i reject the notion that there are any meaningful parallel's between the modern day Palestinians and pre-WWII Jews. Furthermore since i am better versed on modern day Palestinians than pre-WWII Jews, if i could be convinced there were significant, meaningful parallel's, i would be reevaluating my position on pre-WWII Jews, not modern day Palestinians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soberphobia View Post
    I hope this makes my position clearer.
    Perhaps, but not any more tenable.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby2 View Post
    "Just in time" thread
    Mine was first... Gates of Hell... But Just in Time got traffic and mine didn't

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite View Post
    Mine was first... Gates of Hell... But Just in Time got traffic and mine didn't
    Also true

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby2 View Post
    Also true
    I generally like obvious self-descriptive thread titles. Mostly.

    Thanks Paulie (I assume it was you) for the merge.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    I generally like obvious self-descriptive thread titles. Mostly.

    Thanks Paulie (I assume it was you) for the merge.
    Yeah, a title change wouldn't hurt. The ambiguity in some of these thread titles causes me to forget which is which oft as not

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soberphobia View Post
    If you think there is much of a difference between the way the Palestinians are being currently treated and the way the Jewish population of Germany was treated from around 1931-37, you are sadly mistaken.
    The Nazi's didn't come to power until 1933. Also, why the 1937 cut-off date? Makes no sense....

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by VonRotten View Post
    The Nazi's didn't come to power until 1933. Also, why the 1937 cut-off date? Makes no sense....

    And under any circumstances the Jews had businesses seized and lost most rights. Citizenship was revoked.
    This is not the case in the Palestinian areas.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by palmetto defender View Post
    And under any circumstances the Jews had businesses seized and lost most rights. Citizenship was revoked.
    This is not the case in the Palestinian areas.
    The only people who equate what Israel does with what the Nazis did are anti-Semites. They won't admit to it, rather they fall back on being "anti-Zionist" what they don't understand is that in many ways, the 2 are the same...

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by chiefst2000 View Post
    Give me a break. The Palestinians bring all of their problems onto themselves. Jerusalem has been a majority Jewish city going back as far as the early 1800's. When Hertzel and the Zionists started moving back there in the late 1800 there were less than 200,000 people living on the land in total. Among them were Jews Christians and Muslims. Most of what you call Palestinians were migrants from Egypt and other neighboring countries that went to work for Jewish settlers there in the late 1800's. Arafat himself was born in Cairo. Spare me your moral relativism. The children dead in your photograph have their parents and political leaders to blame for their deaths. The Palestinians have the chance at peace every day. The Israelis want it. They want to exist in a peaceful country. You and your ilk are the problem. Referring to Israel as occupied land is exactly the problem with the Palestinian point of view. They should accept that Israel isn't going away. They will never succeed in eradicating the land of the Jewish majority. Only when they come to accept that fact will they be ready for a real peace. In the meantime they can suffer the consequences of their actions and the actions of their freely elected Hamas government.

    I commend you for going to Gaza to do your mission work. I suggest that now is a good time to go back there and help out. They are going to need you there.
    This. Mother****ing this.

    So long as the Palestinian narrative remains "Israel should never have existed and must be destroyed," so long as their well-meaning foreign defenders continue to blame Israel rather than pressure the Palestinians to stop firing rockets at Israeli civilians, there is and will be no hope for peace. Ever.

    When the day comes that the Palestinians stop being rewarded for terrorism, there will be the glimmer of a hope that they will abandon it. When that happens, peace will be at hand.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Soberphobia View Post
    Israel bears responsibility because they dropped bombs on kids? Those bombs are Israeli bombs that Israel dropped - what an absurd twist of logic to wholy blame the parents of dead children for this situation. Some parents have no choice but to stay in Gaza - its not as if you can up and move from country to country at will, especially if you have no money.

    Look I think Israel has a right to exist and to defend itself, but I also think that about the Palestinians, and whatever way you look at it Israel was formed on what used to be Palestine, and since Israel was formed it has been gobbling up as much of the rest of Palestine that it can get its hands on. The list of Jewish crimes against the Palestinians is a long one and to describe them as vermin or whatever as some posters have above falls into the same trap the Jews themselves suffered during the run up to World War Two in Germany. How tragically ironic it is that just generations ago the Jews were being treated in a somewhat similar manner to how they are treating the Palestinians now. All we need next is Palestinians being fed into gas ovens and the circle will be complete.
    Oh FFS. Lets go through this piece by piece.

    1) There was no "used to be Palestine" any more than you can say "Nebraska was formed on what used to be the Great Plains". "Palestine" was a geographic descriptor, not a nation or functional state. 87% of that geographic region is now known as "Jordan"

    2) Jews have lived in that region for thousands of years - their nation was the last independent state in that area - and to the extent that many jews moved there in the late 1800s and early 1900s, they did so legally and by purchasing land, often at exorbitant prices, to live there. There was no invasion or theft of land.

    3) In the 1920s, Arabs assaulted Jews, massacred them. In the 1930s and 40s, they sided with the Nazis and convinced the British to limit Jewish immigration.

    4) Nevertheless, in 1948, the Jews accepted the partition plan proposed by the UN, which would have created a small Jewish state on territory in which the Jews were the majority, more than 50% of the area of which would have been made up of the Negev dessert.

    5) The Arabs refused Partition, announced their intention to slaughter the Jews and prevent the creation of any Jewish state, and proceeded to attempt to do so.

    6) They lost.

    7) They then kept the refugees from that war from rebuilding their lives, using them as a weapon.

    8) Between 1948 and June 67, Israel controlled exactly no part of Gaza or the West Bank. There was no movement for a Palestinian state in those territories. On the contrary, the Palestinians expressly disclaimed any interest in such a state, and only had eyes for one thing - the obliteration of Israel.

    9) After the 6 Day War - when the Arabs tried again, lost again, and lost more land as a result - Israel was ready to engage in peace negotiations. The arabs responded with the Khartoum Declaration.

    7) Palestinians under Israeli rule had the highest living standard in the Middle East, and the most political freedom.

    8) Hamas not only targets Israeli civilians, it brags about doing so. Check out the Qassam Brigades' twitter feed, as they celebrate rocket launches aimed at civilian cities.

    9) They fire those missiles from within Gaza's civilian population. Check, say, John Donnison's twitter feed, which will sporadically report the fire of missiles from within Gaza City.

    10) The end result of those latter two points is that Israel must strike at Hamas military targets - and that when it does, civilian death is inevitable.

    11) That said, Israel has done a more than admirable job of limiting civilian death. Roughly a third of the dead in this go round are civilians. While any civilian death is tragic, simple comparison of that result to the average civilian casualty count in wars since 1950 - 91% - provides a stark demonstration of how well Israel is doing in minimizing civilian casualties to the extent possible.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Soberphobia View Post
    LOL at a graphic that claims the mainly uninhabited Negev desert was "Palestinian" in 1946

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Soberphobia View Post
    So obviously you are saying the Jews have a mandate to take over Palestine? Because the Palestinians can move elsewhere?

    You could easily make an argument that the Israelis could move elsewhere or is it acceptable to you for the Palestinians to have their land taken just because its Israel and just because they have some sort of mandate written in a thousands year old religious book?

    Look, I think the Jews have a right to their own homeland, but since that's been granted they've taken it upon themselves to absorb as much of Palestine as possible.
    Damn those Jews for winning when they were attacked in 1948 or when they were about to be in 1967 . . .

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Ciaran View Post
    It's not the perfect position, but it's much easier to comprehend than that of the American government. Or the position of the guy who said that Israel should "annihilate these filthy unwashed savages." But you didn't have a problem "comprehending" that one, did you?

    They're human beings. It's not a video game. If it was, it would be a pretty terrible one. And there is no moral side. But there is a side with agency and there is a side without agency.
    Bull****. The Palestinians are perfectly capable of acting in moral, legal, and defensible ways, and it is outright racist to pretend otherwise.

    They choose to attack civilians and call for the slaughter of Jews. They live with the results.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Please site your source for this claim. Specificly that "Jews fought" Germans prior to any Anti-Jewish laws being passed, forced relocations being implemented, etc.

    To put it bluntily, I do not believe your claim is backed by history. Jews "fought back" well after the Reich had moved well into the "expropriate, expel, exterminate" stage, but they did not have any actions that could be construed as an equal to the ongoing Hamas-driven rocket attacks into civillian Israel. Your explaination that the "Communists vs. Nazi" street fights in the Wiemar Republic was "Jews fighting back" is both overly simplistic, and only very partially accurate, and absolutely oes not rise to the level of rocket attacks on civillians.

    In addition, clearly the Israelis have not done the vast majority of what the Reich did. No Anti-Palestinian Laws along the line of the Anti-Jew laws in Germany, no Kristallnacht, no Israels Dictator writing books about how the world would be better off without Arabs/Muslims/Palestinians, no Israeli concentration camps, no Israeli extermination camps.

    However, if we'd like to explore historic ties to Nazi Germany, a number exist between Palestine/Palestinians and the Reich.

    For example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haj_Amin_al-Husseini

    And http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Wa..._(1st_Croatian)
    Pretty sure I've addressed this above - as I said, I do agree that Hamas is a radical organisation targetting civilians, but you have to ask yourself why Hamas has support among Palestinians apart from the reason given in this thread that the Palestinians are "vermin".

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by chiefst2000 View Post
    Of course there is no such evidence. People that hate Jews often try to subtly infer that the Jews deserved what they got or at least deserved some part of the blame. For Europeans it helps assuage their guilt.
    I don't think anyone is making that claim in this thread, certainly not me - but some of the statements in this thread about Palestinians being vermin or whatever does actually match the antisemitic propaganda that Jews encountered after about 1890 in what is now Germany. In fact there were cartoons drawn and widely disemminated in the Weimar Republic where Jews were caricatured as rats. It was from this environment that the Nazis sprang from.

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