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Thread: Tannenbaum's Biggest Mistakes?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Hindsight. At the time, it was the right pick and decision. Sometimes teh right decision at the time simply doesn't pan out. Thats Sanchez.



    Was a consensus pick at that spot. Now, alot of us thought "trade dwon" at that point, but most analysists and teams felt Ghost was guy at that spot, in a year where there was a legit top group, then Ghost. We were outside the top, and got Ghost.



    "Rex's Guys" and "Mangini's Guys".

    Agreed.



    Disagree. I think he generally is building the skill spots correctly, vets and draft picks to develop. I think this group gets more discredit than deserves because too many give Sanchez less discredit than HE deserves.

    Only mistake IMO is a big-long-deal for Holmes.



    Apparently, the Owner overruled, or so it sure seems now. The less tebow plays, the less believeable it is that Tanny/Rex ever wanted him in the first place.
    1 - Sorry fish but it was not hindsight in my eyes to not draft Sanchez. He never elivated the play of his team at USC, so what made anyone think he could in the pros.

    2 - Tanny is the GM and as such it's his Job to assemble the best talent he can on a yearly basis. The rex guys and the Mangini guys are a copout .

    3 - Agree totally. Although i disagree with the resigning of Holmes,Tanny has tried to keep a mixture of youth and Veterans at the WR position while improving the talent.

    4 - Everyone says it was not the owner and i have to take them at their word. Along time ago, someone told me if you're in command, Command. If the owner forced a player on the HC he didn't want, he should have resigned.It's impossible to do your job the way you want when you're being micro-managed.

    Tanny is a poser.
    Rex is a fraud
    Sanchez is a never was.


    One of the reasons i loved Cutler was because he made Vandy relevant in the SEC while he was there. It's the same reason i love Freeman coming out of K-State where he elivated that program for the 3 and 1 half seasons he was there. What did Sanchez do with all the talent he had around him at USC.

    There's another QB in the SEC coming out in 2013 that has elivated his program to bowl eligibility for the 1st time since the Tim Couch college years.I have been told by someone i respect that this player doesn't have the arm strength to drive the ball at the next level. I don't share that opinion. All i see when i watch this player is someone who understands offenses,reads defenses and makes plays when the opportunity arises. Because of Sean Renfree,Duke is probably going to a Bowl game for the 1st time in forever. On his team, there's probably not another player worth of drafting. These are the type of players u draft. Players that make others look great, not players who need others to look great.
    Last edited by Tinstar; 11-26-2012 at 12:05 PM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Hindsight. At the time, it was the right pick and decision. Sometimes teh right decision at the time simply doesn't pan out. Thats Sanchez.



    Was a consensus pick at that spot. Now, alot of us thought "trade dwon" at that point, but most analysists and teams felt Ghost was guy at that spot, in a year where there was a legit top group, then Ghost. We were outside the top, and got Ghost.



    "Rex's Guys" and "Mangini's Guys".

    Agreed.



    Disagree. I think he generally is building the skill spots correctly, vets and draft picks to develop. I think this group gets more discredit than deserves because too many give Sanchez less discredit than HE deserves.

    Only mistake IMO is a big-long-deal for Holmes.



    Apparently, the Owner overruled, or so it sure seems now. The less tebow plays, the less believeable it is that Tanny/Rex ever wanted him in the first place.
    The other thing about gholston is that, that year was an awful draft. Derrick Harvey was the other "pass rusher" on the board and he was equally as bad as gholston.

    One of the points of this thread is that no GM hits on every move, so to rip him for vlad ducasse and yet give mangini credit for drafting revis is ridiculous. Even pace - he had 15 sacks for us his first 2 years, and more importantly would not be nearly as ineffective as he is now, if we had a single other fast LB playing with him.

    Many of the "msitakes" that are going to cost tanny his job stem from the fact that he had a veteran team in a "win-now" situation with an owner moving to a new stadium. He had to mortgage the future for 2010 and 2011 and the only hope was that as the roster got older and less effective, the QB play would improve enough to make up the difference and remain competitive...unfortunately for him that didnt happen.

  3. #23
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    While I agree with all of the specific lists given by others in this thread I am going to try and provide a different take on the question.

    #1 Never meeting a microphone he didn't like

    This club and it's General manager have been media whores for his entire tenure. Always with an eye to the next splashy off season deal regardless of the consequences to the long term health of the franchise. Whether it is Tim Tebow, Brett Favre, the pursuit of Aso and/or Manning, or the acquisition of Santonio Holmes or, well you all know the list by this point.... All of these deals or near deals had the effect of ginning up the media interest, many times for the wrong reasons and almost always with a price to be paid later.

    I will gladly pay you next Tuesday for a hamburger today.

    #2 Undervaluing the draft
    Pretty simple really. We have drafted fewer players than any other team in the NFL during Mike Tanenbaum's tenure. We have done this by trading away our picks, often for expensive short term gains of dubious value.

    #3 Drafting badly
    There really is no way around it. If the strategy of your team is to get players in return for picks or be willing to send multiple picks out to move up in the draft then you better be really good with the few picks that you have left. We have not been really good or even somewhat good. We have been terrible. Sanchez, Wilson, Ducasse and Gholston are just some of the names on this particular wall of shame.

    #4 Managing the cap like a drunken sailor

    Stop believing your own press clippings Mike Tannenbaum. You have managed our cap like a man who p1sses away all of his paycheck on Friday night and then has to live on beans on toast all week and is borrowing from his friends by Sunday night. If we are at or over the cap which we are every year and we need to "restructure a few deals" to get under that is essentially code speak for guaranteeing a veteran more years in return for moving his dollars around. Look at Bart Scott. Sometimes we make these deals in order to create more room to go after the latest high profile signing du jour as happened with the pursuit of Aso.

    Good teams universally do not do this. They just do not. If you find a team that is doing this then it is typically the Redskins or the Raiders but now, under Mike Tannenbaum you can add us into this other wall of shame.

    In short we do not go for the right players IMO and then having made the mistake of targeting the wrong people, Mr T. manages to massively overpay them on a regular basis. All of this is part and parcel of trying to make sure we have the best damned party on the planet today and worry about the price tag sometime around next Tuesday.

    #5 Not having a plan
    I do not think he has a plan. i never thought he had a plan. I think he has rabbit ears and his plan is whatever it is that is polling the best today. So originally that meant shoring up the offensive line but I think that once we got that one done that he ran out of ideas beyond chasing the next high profile free agent. Pick a head coach and then convince the world that the sins of the team were the fault of the man you put into the job at the same time as asking them to forget who it was that put him in that job. I wonder if he can pull the same trick a second time with Rex when the time comes?

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Hindsight. At the time, it was the right pick and decision. Sometimes teh right decision at the time simply doesn't pan out. Thats Sanchez.



    Was a consensus pick at that spot. Now, alot of us thought "trade dwon" at that point, but most analysists and teams felt Ghost was guy at that spot, in a year where there was a legit top group, then Ghost. We were outside the top, and got Ghost.


    Most draft analysis and GM's had Freeman well ahead of Sanchez. Tanny and Wrecks fell in love with Sanchez during one workout at USC. Freeman was/is the more prototypical NFL QB. One of Pete Carroll's comments about Sanchez needing another year at USC was dead on when he said he felt the "NFL game will be too fast for Mark". That's exactly what happened.

    I agree, Gholston was the pick in that spot. He was just a bust in the NFL. That happens sometimes.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Hindsight. At the time, it was the right pick and decision. Sometimes teh right decision at the time simply doesn't pan out. Thats Sanchez.


    I don't know. I saw Sanchez as a college QB that played with a lot of elite talent at USC but had no specific measurable that screamed first round pick, be it height, arm, or mobility. Freeman was the more intriguing prospect and would not have required a trade up. We don't even know 100% for sure that Sanchez required a trade up, but at least you can say to Mike T's credit that we did not give up much to trade up.

  6. #26
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    It's not even debatable and the answer is drafting Sanchez...

    Has nothing to do with trading up either. Tanny thought he was going to be a great QB so the correct answer is trading up. He was just extremely wrong on his judgement. Also re-signing him was a mistake as well...

    Drafting Gholston was also a huge failure but you are going to miss on some picks...

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinstar View Post
    1 - Sorry fish but it was not hindsight in my eyes to not draft Sanchez. He never elivated the play of his team at USC, so what made anyone think he could in the pros.

    2 - Tanny is the GM and as such it's his Job to assemble the best talent he can on a yearly basis. The rex guys and the Mangini guys are a copout .

    3 - Agree totally. Although i disagree with the resigning of Holmes,Tanny has tried to keep a mixture of youth and Veterans at the WR position while improving the talent.

    4 - Everyone says it was not the owner and i have to take them at their word. Along time ago, someone told me if you're in command, Command. If the owner forced a player on the HC he didn't want, he should have resigned.It's impossible to do your job the way you want when you're being micro-managed.

    Tanny is a poser.
    Rex is a fraud
    Sanchez is a never was.
    This is it in a nutshell!
    I don't even watch college ball but I do read all about the players coming into the draft.
    When you look at Luck/RG3/Even Tannyhill, they had obvious intangables.
    Sanchez is short.
    Was not accurate.
    Played only 16 games.
    Is not a runner.
    Problem is what you CAN'T quantify & that is grit & mental toughness. This is where Sanchez lacks most.
    Had it been Sanchez that ripped Holmes a new one in that Miami game fans would have more respect for him. The problem is that the team doesn't respect him. They say all the right things but that's only because Tebow stinks & believe me they all know that if it's Tebow time, they might get 2 passes each per game.
    Macelroy is blackballed for opening his mouth about the disfunction going on. Rex is a horrible LEADER of men, the only thing he has in common with his father is his stubborness! I'll tell you this, his father would have yanked Sanchez azz out of the games a LONG TIME AGO!
    No way would Buddy have put up with a guy constantly putting his defense in bad positions.
    Rex is way more BUDDY BUDDY than Buddy.
    Buddy loved his defensive guys but he'd get in your face if you were effing up out there.
    Jets had to make the SPLASH at the draft, that's Tanny & Woodys MO.
    Instead they could have just let Freeman fall in their laps & who knows what would have happened with the picks they didn't have to give up?

    We all hoped Sanchez would work out but in hindsight, like usual this organization made the wrong decision & probably again more for the splash of the event than anything else.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinstar View Post
    1 - Sorry fish but it was not hindsight in my eyes to not draft Sanchez. He never elivated the play of his team at USC, so what made anyone think he could in the pros.
    Agree to disagree. He was viewed, in my memory, as something of a consensus pick at the spot he went. Given how little we paid to aquire him, a potential franchise QB, the only discredit I give Tanny is that he (like most) Missed on Sanchez's potential to develop and improve.

    Whats funny was I wasn't a big fan of the Sanchez pick at the time, seemed risky, and I got crucified on J.I. because I was a doubter. Lol.

    From an organizational viewpoint however, it should be reminded that he did have two AFCCG seasons, so he did in-effect pay for himself that way on a pure fiscal basis. He's not even a "whole miss" frankly.

    And of course, we only see what we see today, Sanchez is still a kid. This year should be his rookie year in the NFL, not year 4. He still has plenty of time to fix whats wrong, in the right place and the right hands. He probably won't, but he could.

    2 - Tanny is the GM and as such it's his Job to assemble the best talent he can on a yearly basis. The rex guys and the Mangini guys are a copout .


    You also have to work with the coaches you hire, and if that coach has "guys" who are fill-in players that cost very little and work decently well within a system, thats not a bad plan for a GM. You cannot have all-pro talent everywhere in a cap-limited league, so "Coach's Guys" are almost mandatory. I don;t fault Tanny for them as much as the Coaches for not properly evaluating declining "Their guys" we've had, too many to list, but Bart Scott is a prime example.

    Whats funny is how many Jets fans DEMAND we have a "Jets Fan's Guy" like a Woodhead or a Braylon Edwards, and don't see the irony when they also demnd we dump a Leonard or a Scott. Coach's Guys = Fan's Guys, except fan's Guys are often far more expensive to keep and watch fail.

    4 - Everyone says it was not the owner and i have to take them at their word. Along time ago, someone told me if you're in command, Command. If the owner forced a player on the HC he didn't want, he should have resigned.It's impossible to do your job the way you want when you're being micro-managed.
    Very easy to say in our position as fans who will never have a Head Coachign opportunity offered to them.

    In the real world, people very rarely take such a principled stand on such things. Especially if it's your first shot at the Head Coach job.

    One of the reasons i loved Cutler was because he made Vandy relevant in the SEC while he was there. It's the same reason i love Freeman coming out of K-State where he elivated that program for the 3 and 1 half seasons he was there. What did Sanchez do with all the talent he had around him at USC.
    Culter sucks, and Freeman is nothing special.

    Anything looks good comapred to Sanchez right now, so
    Last edited by Warfish; 11-26-2012 at 12:31 PM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglenj View Post
    There is a very good chance that Tanny will be gone after this year and most of the board here agrees with that. This team hasnt beat a team with a winning record in 2 years, an atrocious testament to futility that should get multiple people fired.

    That being said, what would the board consider to be Tannenbaum's top 5 biggest mistakes that led to the disasterous end to the 2011 season and the debacle that we have witnessed in 2012.
    1) The Sanchez extension

    2) Vernon Gholston

    3) Vladimir Ducasse

    4) Refusing to pay Pete Kendall

    5) Tim Tebow
    Last edited by Mainejet; 11-26-2012 at 12:50 PM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatsFanTX View Post
    Most draft analysis and GM's had Freeman well ahead of Sanchez. Tanny and Wrecks fell in love with Sanchez during one workout at USC. Freeman was/is the more prototypical NFL QB. One of Pete Carroll's comments about Sanchez needing another year at USC was dead on when he said he felt the "NFL game will be too fast for Mark". That's exactly what happened.

    I agree, Gholston was the pick in that spot. He was just a bust in the NFL. That happens sometimes.
    +1
    Like I've stated before most of what I gather before the draft comes from magazines & such.
    I read so much more about the upside of Freeman & didn't really see many glowing articles about Sanchez.
    I actually was hoping that Freeman would be there when we picked & then the announcement was made that we traded up.
    The funny thing I remember was the clips of the all the TDs he was throwing & the wideouts had no one within 5 yards of them! Little different in the NFL.

    Funniest thing is that this entire board owes those two brothers that were rueing the pick openly on camera an apology as they were called out time & again,lol!
    They get the last laugh! THEY WERE F*CKING RIGHT! it was a bad pick.

  11. #31
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    IMO the biggest problem that exists in this current regime is player evaluation. Aside from Gholston our drafts with "Tangini" were impressive. I know Clemens didn't do much either but when you look at Brick, Mangold, Revis, Harris, etc our drafts were ten fold better.

    The difference?

    Mangini knows how to evaluate talent. Rex is not anywhere near the level of talent evaluator that Mangini is. On the flip side Mangini can't touch Rex's ability as a football coach and leader of men.

    The problem.

    We have a money whiz at GM who has gathered a roster resembling The Replacements with no Shane Falco and no stick 'em, and a coach who is losing the team as a result of lack of talent.

    The solution.

    Either fire Mike T or demote him to a role better suiting his talents, salary cap crunching. Hire a GM with football knowledge that can get some talent on this roster so that Rex can do his job. 2009 and 2010 were seasons that ended in AFCCG berths, why? Because of the players that Mangini drafted! Revis was, in my opinion, the MVP of the 2009 season hand picked by Mangini. Say what you want about Mangini as a coach, you'll get no arguement from me. But the guy could evaluate talent, and now does for ESPN.

    Fire/demote Tanny, keep Rex, hire a GM who can evaluate talent. Get back on track.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Agree to disagree. He was viewed, in my memory, as something of a consensus pick at the spot he went. Given how little we paid to aquire him, a potential franchise QB, the only discredit I give Tanny is that he (like most) Missed on Sanchez's potential to develop and improve.

    Whats funny was I wasn't a big fan of the Sanchez pick at the time, seemed risky, and I got crucified on J.I. because I was a doubter. Lol.

    From an organizational viewpoint however, it should be reminded that he did have two AFCCG seasons, so he did in-effect pay for himself that way on a pure fiscal basis. He's not even a "whole miss" frankly.

    And of course, we only see what we see today, Sanchez is still a kid. This year should be his rookie year in the NFL, not year 4. He still has plenty of time to fix whats wrong, in the right place and the right hands. He probably won't, but he could.





    You also have to work with the coaches you hire, and if that coach has "guys" who are fill-in players that cost very little and work decently well within a system, thats not a bad plan for a GM. You cannot have all-pro talent everywhere in a cap-limited league, so "Coach's Guys" are almost mandatory. I don;t fault Tanny for them as much as the Coaches for not properly evaluating declining "Their guys" we've had, too many to list, but Bart Scott is a prime example.

    Whats funny is how many Jets fans DEMAND we have a "Jets Fan's Guy" like a Woodhead or a Braylon Edwards, and don't see the irony when they also demnd we dump a Leonard or a Scott. Coach's Guys = Fan's Guys, except fan's Guys are often far more expensive to keep and watch fail.



    Very easy to say in our position as fans who will never have a Head Coachign opportunity offered to them.

    In the real world, people very rarely take such a principled stand on such things. Especially if it's your first shot at the Head Coach job.



    Culter sucks, and Freeman is nothing special.

    Anything looks good comapred to Sanchez right now, so
    If you don't have principles, what do u have ? If you don't stand for something, u will fall for anything. For 2 straight yrs Cutler was taken away from the Bears while that team was leading the NFC North . What happen to the team without that QB u say sucks. Freeman with zero talent around him 2 yrs ago had the type of Season Sanchez can only dream about. With some talent around him he's having the type of season Jet fans keep telling me Sanchez could have given talent. If the Bucs had any defense this yr, i wonder what they record would be.

    Sanchez has played with talent, his #s were awful but atleast he was the starting QB when the jets went to 2 AFCCG. Scott Perdue has a few NBA championship rings playing with Michael Jordan.Does that make him a better NBA Center than say Patrick Ewing who never won any ?

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by JETS2417 View Post
    IMO the biggest problem that exists in this current regime is player evaluation. Aside from Gholston our drafts with "Tangini" were impressive. I know Clemens didn't do much either but when you look at Brick, Mangold, Revis, Harris, etc our drafts were ten fold better.

    The difference?

    Mangini knows how to evaluate talent. Rex is not anywhere near the level of talent evaluator that Mangini is. On the flip side Mangini can't touch Rex's ability as a football coach and leader of men.

    The problem.

    We have a money whiz at GM who has gathered a roster resembling The Replacements with no Shane Falco and no stick 'em, and a coach who is losing the team as a result of lack of talent.

    The solution.

    Either fire Mike T or demote him to a role better suiting his talents, salary cap crunching. Hire a GM with football knowledge that can get some talent on this roster so that Rex can do his job. 2009 and 2010 were seasons that ended in AFCCG berths, why? Because of the players that Mangini drafted! Revis was, in my opinion, the MVP of the 2009 season hand picked by Mangini. Say what you want about Mangini as a coach, you'll get no arguement from me. But the guy could evaluate talent, and now does for ESPN.

    Fire/demote Tanny, keep Rex, hire a GM who can evaluate talent. Get back on track.
    I don't want Rex & his staff here anymore & here's why. Rex is terrible at DEVELOPING talent.
    He's really bad. When he was just a DC it was easy when he had Lewis/Reed/Ngata that team was loaded.
    Now he's got aging vets & he seems to have no clue how to incorporate the young guys.
    He's not alone in this, many players get found after injuries force the coach into playing them.
    Why do you think Parcells always wanted "his guys"?
    Veterans are easy
    Doing what Pete Carroll is doing in Seattle is HARD! & it's a lot of work & teaching.
    I'll give Carroll this, his move to Wilson after paying Flynn was BALLSY!
    Something our current group would NEVER DO!

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinstar View Post
    If you don't have principles, what do u have ?
    This isn't Treblinka or Chełmno we're discussing old friend.

    In the real world, no career-long NFL assistent coach is turning down a Head Coaching Job in the NFL on the "principle" that an owner or GM may force a player on him on the roster.

    Just not happening.

    ......blah blah Cutler Freeman blah blah.......
    Culter is a horrible JAG. Sorry, he's Gus Ferotte. An argument for Cutler is not an argument against Sanchez, it's an argument for a different flavor dissapointing mediocrity.

    Freeman. We'll see. His resume to-date is nothing to get worked up over, but he has potential. So we'll see.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatsFanTX View Post
    Most draft analysis and GM's had Freeman well ahead of Sanchez. Tanny and Wrecks fell in love with Sanchez during one workout at USC. Freeman was/is the more prototypical NFL QB. One of Pete Carroll's comments about Sanchez needing another year at USC was dead on when he said he felt the "NFL game will be too fast for Mark". That's exactly what happened.

    I agree, Gholston was the pick in that spot. He was just a bust in the NFL. That happens sometimes.
    Sorry but that is just not true. People were going back and forth between Stafford and Sanchez with most for Stafford, but a few for Sanchez.

    Freeman was always considered the #3 by pretty much everyone.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetster View Post
    I don't want Rex & his staff here anymore & here's why. Rex is terrible at DEVELOPING talent.
    He's really bad. When he was just a DC it was easy when he had Lewis/Reed/Ngata that team was loaded.
    Now he's got aging vets & he seems to have no clue how to incorporate the young guys.
    He's not alone in this, many players get found after injuries force the coach into playing them.
    Why do you think Parcells always wanted "his guys"?
    Veterans are easy
    Doing what Pete Carroll is doing in Seattle is HARD! & it's a lot of work & teaching.
    I'll give Carroll this, his move to Wilson after paying Flynn was BALLSY!
    Something our current group would NEVER DO!
    If Rex is 1. bad at developing talent, 2. not a good game manager (clock, timeouts etc), 3. too loyal to veteran players, 4. doesnt require accountability from his players, and 5. is a constant media abomination then why should he not be fired?

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatsFanTX View Post
    Most draft analysis and GM's had Freeman well ahead of Sanchez. Tanny and Wrecks fell in love with Sanchez during one workout at USC. Freeman was/is the more prototypical NFL QB. One of Pete Carroll's comments about Sanchez needing another year at USC was dead on when he said he felt the "NFL game will be too fast for Mark". That's exactly what happened.

    I agree, Gholston was the pick in that spot. He was just a bust in the NFL. That happens sometimes.
    Thats not true at all. Sanchez was ranked as a better prospect than Freeeman by virtually every draft analyst.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetster View Post
    Rex is terrible at DEVELOPING talent.
    What talent? My whole arguement was the about the lack of talent brought in, you can't get blood out of a stone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Culter is a horrible JAG. Sorry, he's Gus Ferotte. An argument for Cutler is not an argument against Sanchez, it's an argument for a different flavor dissapointing mediocrity.
    Cutler is the most underrated QB in the NFL. Guy has absolutely no protection and outside of Marshall has zero weapons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglenj View Post
    If Rex is 1. bad at developing talent, 2. not a good game manager (clock, timeouts etc), 3. too loyal to veteran players, 4. doesnt require accountability from his players, and 5. is a constant media abomination then why should he not be fired?
    Rex will be gone... if not this year, then next year

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    This isn't Treblinka or Chełmno we're discussing old friend.

    In the real world, no career-long NFL assistent coach is turning down a Head Coaching Job in the NFL on the "principle" that an owner or GM may force a player on him on the roster.

    Just not happening.



    Culter is a horrible JAG. Sorry, he's Gus Ferotte. An argument for Cutler is not an argument against Sanchez, it's an argument for a different flavor dissapointing mediocrity.

    Freeman. We'll see. His resume to-date is nothing to get worked up over, but he has potential. So we'll see.
    Jay Cutler is so much better than Sanchez it is laughable to compare them.

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