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Thread: Tannenbaum's Biggest Mistakes?

  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Except we've established that there is an excuse.

    Consensus "right choice at that spot", a clear drop in potential from that guy and what else is left, and no option of trade down available despite trying to find one.

    The excuse is thats the only time it happens. If drafting is a conistent problem, thats another issue.

    Could we, in hindsight, have done better? Obviously. But we have highsight. Our viewpoints now cannot be seperated fromt he fact we KNOW he busted completely and totally. Proclaiming that we should have picked "insert good in hindsight lower spot choice here" guy instead is another case of highsight-based logic.
    Well, they could have avoided the bust by doing what other GMs do, stay away from combine pros & use the tape to pick "FOOTBALL PLAYERS".
    History has shown for every Gholston theres a Teddy Bruschi, guys that might not have all the measurables but just make plays each & every week that jump out at you.

    I remember I used to buy Joel Bushbaums draft previews.
    They were awesome. Obviously he didn't know everything but he went by what he saw.
    Lazy players for the most part don't "change" because you give them 20 million! They get lazier.
    I remember one year we were getting ready to pick in the 3rd round & going by Joels book a little guy with the heart of a lion was sitting there & we bypassed him.
    It was Zach Thomas who went on to be a helluva football player for the Fins.
    I can't even remember who we picked but more often than not the fans know as much as these geniuses picking.
    Did the Jets hear the chant for Warren Sapp?
    THEY SURE HAS HELL SHOULD HAVE!

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by AFCEastFan View Post
    I would have taken Gholston, of course. Just like every other armchair quarterback leafing through their Sporting News draft guide on draft day.

    But I am not an NFL GM. NFL GM's need to get a quality player with a top 10 pick. There is simply no excuse for wasting such a high pick. Tannebaum's job with the #6 pick is to at least draft a good player who can actually contribute. That might mean trading out of the spot or using the pick on someone a little off the radar (Jerod Mayo? Dominique R-C? Chris Johnson?) who can actually play. It certainly does not mean wasting the pick on a guy who can't play at all just because all the guys who publish draft guides said so.

    The 2001 Patriots needed a #1 WR like nobody's business. Need and BPA coincided perfectly when Gerard Warren and Justin Smith somewhat surprisingly went in the top 5. Everybody and their grandmother expected David Terrell to be the pick at #6. The Patriots got absolutely KILLED in the media for taking Richard Seymour there instead. But that's what good GM's are supposed to do with a top-6 pick -- think outside the box if necessary and get someone who can actually play.

    Tanny failed miserably by not getting a remotely competent player with such a high pick. Drafting Gholston over other successful NFL players (however they may have been ranked by pre-draft consensus) is no more excusable than drafting Terrell in 2001 would have been. The blame for screwing up a pick that high must fall squarely at the feet of the GM.
    When you go against the grain, you sure as sh!t better be right. Especially with the #6 pick overall. If the Jets were of the opinon that Gholston, more likely than not, would bust, then by all means, take DRC, or any of the other guys around there (most of whom busted as well). But, I'm sure they were of the same opinion as most other talent evaluators about Gholston and there was no other real choice.

    Busting on a top 10 pick hurts a lot. The Jets defense would be immeasurably better if they had an Aldon Smith-esque player added to the front 7. And GMs are charged with building a successful team, come hell or high water. Excuses are cheap. But, in the scheme of things, I would much prefer to criticize Tanny on fundamental choices he has made and not an individual player that didn't pan out despite having legitimate reasons (by every measure) for taking him. Its true - you can argue that a GM has to have the intestinal fortitude to go against the grain when necessary for the betterment of the team. But, that presumes there was a move that was against the grain here. Its more likely that a cigar is a cigar and practically every team and talent evaluator had Gholston there - including most every team behind the Jets. Being that's the case and BAP matched need, you can't trade out either.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    They should have.



    Because he's a #3 developmental QB prospect who means less than nothing. If he becomes something, awesome, if not, there are 10,000 other nobody JAG QB's in the wings waiting to be a well-paid NFL #3 clipboardholder and evelopmental pick.

    Tanny probably had dreams of Penningtonesque Goodness. It a recurrent disease.
    They didn't cut him because they didn't want another Woodhead problem.
    The little Rhodes Scholar would have driven up 95 to be Belichicks 3rd QB & personally draw up the Jets game plans from memory.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    This isn't Treblinka or Chełmno we're discussing old friend.

    In the real world, no career-long NFL assistent coach is turning down a Head Coaching Job in the NFL on the "principle" that an owner or GM may force a player on him on the roster.

    Just not happening.



    Culter is a horrible JAG. Sorry, he's Gus Ferotte. An argument for Cutler is not an argument against Sanchez, it's an argument for a different flavor dissapointing mediocrity.

    Freeman. We'll see. His resume to-date is nothing to get worked up over, but he has potential. So we'll see.
    Let me ask u a Question. What is Rex Ryan's reputation around the league today compared to what it was at the end of last year ? Can u imagine the reputation of this guy standing up to Woody Johnson and walking away from the Jets because of this Tim Tebow affair after taking the Jets to those 2 AFCCGs. If Woody fires him after this season, his best job offer will be as a DC and he will probably never get another shot as a HC again.

    I wanted Freeman because we didn't need to trade up and he needed time to get acclimated to the speed of the NFL. He was handled perfectly by his former HC and continues to be handled well by his new HC. He was never considered a better prospect by the experts, but he was special to me.

    Just Like Cutler. Fans don't understand Cutler but it is his mental makeup that makes him who he is and i happen to like it. He hold people accountable without killing them.As the QB,even with all his mistakes, he has to be unflappable because that is what is rquired of the position he plays. He's a leader of his team, respected even when he's the reason they lost.Why, because he doesn't let that stop him from making the next mistake.

    Has anyone notice that since the INT in the Miami game in the RED ZONE, the Jets now run draw plays on a consistant basis in that area taking the ball out of their supposed franchise QB hands.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by crasherino View Post
    When you go against the grain, you sure as sh!t better be right. Especially with the #6 pick overall. If the Jets were of the opinon that Gholston, more likely than not, would bust, then by all means, take DRC, or any of the other guys around there (most of whom busted as well). But, I'm sure they were of the same opinion as most other talent evaluators about Gholston and there was no other real choice.

    Busting on a top 10 pick hurts a lot. The Jets defense would be immeasurably better if they had an Aldon Smith-esque player added to the front 7. And GMs are charged with building a successful team, come hell or high water. Excuses are cheap. But, in the scheme of things, I would much prefer to criticize Tanny on fundamental choices he has made and not an individual player that didn't pan out despite having legitimate reasons (by every measure) for taking him. Its true - you can argue that a GM has to have the intestinal fortitude to go against the grain when necessary for the betterment of the team. But, that presumes there was a move that was against the grain here. Its more likely that a cigar is a cigar and practically every team and talent evaluator had Gholston there - including most every team behind the Jets. Being that's the case and BAP matched need, you can't trade out either.
    There were HUGE RED FLAGS regarding Gholston.
    I heard them all week leading up to the draft. Some people said the guy had 3/4 huge games & that was IT!
    Had they drafted Mayo they would have had a 10/12 year starter for gods sake.
    Whats wrong with getting the best LB in the draft?
    Turns out now that Mayo is better than Harris overall.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by crasherino View Post
    When you go against the grain, you sure as sh!t better be right. Especially with the #6 pick overall. If the Jets were of the opinon that Gholston, more likely than not, would bust, then by all means, take DRC, or any of the other guys around there (most of whom busted as well). But, I'm sure they were of the same opinion as most other talent evaluators about Gholston and there was no other real choice.

    Busting on a top 10 pick hurts a lot. The Jets defense would be immeasurably better if they had an Aldon Smith-esque player added to the front 7. And GMs are charged with building a successful team, come hell or high water. Excuses are cheap. But, in the scheme of things, I would much prefer to criticize Tanny on fundamental choices he has made and not an individual player that didn't pan out despite having legitimate reasons (by every measure) for taking him. Its true - you can argue that a GM has to have the intestinal fortitude to go against the grain when necessary for the betterment of the team. But, that presumes there was a move that was against the grain here. Its more likely that a cigar is a cigar and practically every team and talent evaluator had Gholston there - including most every team behind the Jets. Being that's the case and BAP matched need, you can't trade out either.
    I think the issue is how monumental of a bust Gholston was. This wasn't just a guy who got drafted and didn't live up to pre-draft expectations. He got drafted and was basically the worst player in the NFL while on our team. He was Jamarcus Russell/Ryan Leaf etc. When a guy is that bad at the pro level, you question how the scouts and GM could not have caught that during the scouting process. Like as much as we call Sanchez a bust, he did make some positive contributions in playoff games and has had good games in his career. So he's a bust, but not anywhere near Gholston. When the guy is an all-time notorious bust, it's fair to take a harder look at the guy who picked him.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by AFCEastFan View Post
    If we were talking about a late first rounder or a second-day pick, I would agree completely with you. When you are picking that high, though, the GM simply has to get it right. If he blows it -- even under the lens of hindsight -- he doesn't get off the hook IMO by saying "well Todd McShay, Mel Kiper and most other teams would have done the same thing."
    If that was his biggest mistake, and he had a resume of success, yes, he does "get off" on that reason.

    Tanny's future will be based on his whole resume, not just Ghost. And Ghost was picked because Ghost was, at that time in that circumstance, the absolute right pick for the board and the Jets needs.

    You can toss out any meaningless "have to get it right" fanspeak you like, it doesn't change that Ghost is not even in the top 20 of why Tanny will or will not lose his job.

    Quote Originally Posted by jetster View Post
    Well, they could have avoided the bust by doing what other GMs do, stay away from combine pros & use the tape to pick "FOOTBALL PLAYERS".
    History has shown for every Gholston theres a Teddy Bruschi, guys that might not have all the measurables but just make plays each & every week that jump out at you.
    I agree completely. But that is NOT a "Tanny Specific" problem. Thats an NFL GM Problem shared with the vast majority of NFL GM's today.

    No employed GM wants to be the guy who passed on some physical phenom could-be-a-HOF'er because Danny Woodhead or "Media" McElroy and their proven college resume is still on the board.

    The modern NFL is about measurables, not resume. I hate it too, but thats what the league is today.

    Quote Originally Posted by jetster View Post
    They didn't cut him because they didn't want another Woodhead problem.
    The little Rhodes Scholar would have driven up 95 to be Belichicks 3rd QB & personally draw up the Jets game plans from memory.
    Agreed. In my view, one of the Jets biggest weaknesses is an almost pants-pissing-fear of the ol' "What if teh Pats take this guy and...".

    We plan as much for what we don;t want the Pats to do as we do what WE should be doing. And thats an unpardonable sin, in War, and in Football. Act. Don't react or second guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinstar View Post
    Let me ask u a Question. What is Rex Ryan's reputation around the league today compared to what it was at the end of last year ? Can u imagine the reputation of this guy standing up to Woody Johnson and walking away from the Jets because of this Tim Tebow affair after taking the Jets to those 2 AFCCGs. If Woody fires him after this season, his best job offer will be as a DC and he will probably never get another shot as a HC again.
    Ha! If Rex quit and said "I didn't want Tebow, the Owner forced me to take him" not only would he never sniff a Head Coach jon in the NFL again, he'd be lucky to get a D-Co spot in the league again. I think you vastly over-value and over-estimate the value of this specific brand of "principle".

    I'm not going to prattle on about Freeman and the other dude, cause frankly it's a dead-end debate. We have who we have, those jags; are where they are. Woulda, shoulda, coulda with hindsight won't change it. You love the flake from Vandy, so be it. At least you have the Bears to enjoy the rest of this season, lol.
    Last edited by Warfish; 11-26-2012 at 03:55 PM.

  8. #88
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    Not a Bears fan. I am a Jet fan, not a player fan. I watched that game last week until the final snap . I am that much of a saap.

    To win the big game in the NFL, you need 1 of 2 type of QB.

    1 - Someone who can make a play when a play needs to be made. Those r the Franchise QBs.

    2 - Someone who can manage the down and distances of the game and protect the ball. Those r the game managers.


    Mark Sanchez is neither.
    Last edited by Tinstar; 11-26-2012 at 04:03 PM.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinstar View Post
    Not a Bears fan. I am a Jet fan, not a player fan. I watched that game last week until the final snap . I am that much of a saap.
    Don't be so serious Tin, was a joke old friend.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglenj View Post
    Austin Howard does not make or break a team. You can win a SB with him as your RT....
    +1

    On a line that includes a couple of Pro Bowlers you can do well with an average RT and one average OG.

    The things that have the running game stuck in the mud are:

    1. Lack of talent and game-breaking ability at RB. Greene is okay but there are few, if any, other teams in the NFL where he'd be starting right now.

    2. Mediocre passing attack (at best).

    When you don't have a strong passing attack and your RB is a JAG it won't be hard for a defense to stop the run, regardless of how great the OLine is.

  11. #91
    The worst mistakes:
    1) Drafting Gholston: we are still paying for this and the lack of a pass rusher overall; would have been better off reaching for this pick. Work-out warrior, looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane. We knew from the first preseason he was a bust (just as we knew from the first preseason that John Abraham wasn't)

    2) Brett Favre; This was a circus-like desperation move. this may have been the owner, but he was the GM; if you wanted a QB, he should have drafted one to develop behind Pennington. Which leads me to 2B) Kellen Clemens, wasted 2 picks to move up to the middle of the second round to get him.

    3) The Holmes Contract: Sure, talent-wise, keeping Holmes made sense, but guaranteeing a turd all that money and tieing in for several years. Shame on you Mike... should have been an incentive-laden contract, or should have let him walk.

    4) The lack of any bonafide pass rushers in over a decade. We have not seen a draft the likes of Abraham and Ellis since before the millenium. Calvin Pace was the best they could do on a spending spree (and he gave us a year or so, and then became a dinosaur).

    5) The deterioration of offensive line and offensive skill positions. Good teams draft ahead of vets leaving; the Jets did not. Look at the Giants drafting receivers almost every year; also RB's.

    6) The Tebow trade, what a waste

    Honorable mention:
    1) The Lito Sheppard trade, indicative of blowing picks for 1-year stop-gaps that amounted to very little.
    2) The Schlagel and "Sanchez buddy" picks, indicative of mid to lower round head-scratchers
    3) Refusal to draft any skill position offensive players high ever (excepting Sanchez)



    But, to give him some credit where credit is due:
    1) The Revis/Harris draft: came up short on picks, but at the time, got high quality
    2) D'Brick/Mangold draft: solid o-line investment, D'brick's play has fallen off, but no doubt for the first few years, this was solid
    3) Some key moves in FA: Damien Woody, Jim Leonhard, Ladanian Tomlinson, Laron Landry
    4) A couple of good trades (Braylon and Holmes trades, did not give up much at the time)
    5) The Sanchez pick... here me out... they gave up nothing (a couple of scrubs and a 2nd round pick to move up to get him). He didn't work out, but they won the draft on that heist they executed on Mangini and the Browns. It just hasn't worked out the way they might have hoped.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by phillyjet View Post
    3) The Holmes Contract: Sure, talent-wise, keeping Holmes made sense, but guaranteeing a turd all that money and tieing in for several years. Shame on you Mike... should have been an incentive-laden contract, or should have let him walk.
    Or 3b.) Not Re-signing Braylon : We'll never know the true story of why he wasn't re-signed but his non-signing has turned out to be the beginning of the downward-spiral of the Rex-Ryan/Tanny regime. Some people say to me that it might've been his "knee issues" but I say if that was the case, why was he re-signed for the 2010 season? I have yet to receive a proper response to that to this day.... Regardless, combine this with the Holmes contract and that's all she wrote.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by chirorob View Post
    Everyone talks about Edwards. Edwards has done NOTHING since leaving the Jets. Holmes was the Jets only threat, and No One here blamed Tanny at the time.

    Sanchez's extension, absolutely.

    Wasting mid to late round picks, absolutely. #1, you lose the ability to fill out the roster with younger, cheaper players. #2, you can't find a diamond in the rough if you sell off the rough for Tim Tebow.


    My problem with Tanny is his general principal of a few stars/ high priced players and a ton of cheap guys. If players feel there is no competition for their job, they will lose their edge to keep it. Security in the NFL is not always a good thing.
    I have said this for 3 years and most people call me nuts and talk about how 4th round and later are a crap shoot.well the risk is higher no doubt but look at the teams that win. They make value of these picks. Not all..but better than the JETS.
    Last edited by southparkcpa; 11-26-2012 at 06:47 PM.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Vin View Post
    Or 3b.) Not Re-signing Braylon : We'll never know the true story of why he wasn't re-signed but his non-signing has turned out to be the beginning of the downward-spiral of the Rex-Ryan/Tanny regime. Some people say to me that it might've been his "knee issues" but I say if that was the case, why was he re-signed for the 2010 season? I have yet to receive a proper response to that to this day.... Regardless, combine this with the Holmes contract and that's all she wrote.
    Braylon was damaged goods, history has proven that. Have to give Mr. T some credit for that. Most guys he has let go were truly done.

  15. #95
    Biggest mistakes

    Rhodes
    Leon Washinton
    Woodhead
    Bigby
    Vilma
    Jones
    Edwards
    Lowery
    McKenzie
    Garey(spell)
    Goodwin
    Cotchery

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetster View Post
    more often than not the fans know as much as these geniuses picking.
    Did the Jets hear the chant for Warren Sapp?
    THEY SURE HAS HELL SHOULD HAVE!
    Have to agree. With the number of professional websites out there, you have several different looks qt a player. We have access to film and all the stats you could ask for. You can google write ups that quote coaches, opposing players, etc. commenting on given players.

    The only thing we don't have access to would be their personality. And most of the time you can find that.

    Well at least for the first two days of the draft.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by phillyjet View Post
    Braylon was damaged goods, history has proven that. Have to give Mr. T some credit for that. Most guys he has let go were truly done.
    Agree to disagree.

    History has not proven that Braylon had "knee issues" until the RUMORS(around HERE, I might add) began after he wasn't re-signed.

    There was no such "history" when he was a Cleveland Brown, nor was there any when he was a Jet.



    Braylon only became "damaged goods" when he collided with Vernon Davis(in San Fran) in practice and f'ed up his knee, IMO.


    That would not have happened had he remained a Jet.


    Otherwise, like I asked before, if he had "Knee Issues", why was he re-signed for 2010 at all?

    Something ELSE was the issue whether it was Woody's call or Tanny's call.....Bottom Line is that when he left, the Offense began to slowly(but surely) deteriorate into the sh-t sandwich we're seeing now.
    Last edited by Vin; 11-26-2012 at 08:43 PM.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by eaglenj View Post
    So the pats hit once and you are saying its an exact science to get a great player? Brandon Merriweather, laurence Maroney, ty warren, and daniel graham all say HI!
    Ty Warren was a great pick. The other three were drafted in the 20s not #6

  19. #99
    I think it trading away so many draft picks leaving no chance to find depth. Shonn Greene is a good example. Why trade away picks just to move up. Same could be said for Sanchez. Whytrade picks to draft a clone of Trent Dilfer. You could find game managers in later rounds or off waivers. There is no depth
    Quote Originally Posted by eaglenj View Post
    There is a very good chance that Tanny will be gone after this year and most of the board here agrees with that. This team hasnt beat a team with a winning record in 2 years, an atrocious testament to futility that should get multiple people fired.

    That being said, what would the board consider to be Tannenbaum's top 5 biggest mistakes that led to the disasterous end to the 2011 season and the debacle that we have witnessed in 2012.

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