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Thread: Palestine Wins U.N. Statehood, Next Up, War Crimes Trials Against Israel

  1. #21
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    People in this thread far more intelligent than I so correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't a large part of Jordan once Palestinian land? Where is the hue and cry for Jordan to "return" the land to the Palestinians?
    Last edited by PatriotReign; 12-04-2012 at 09:19 AM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatriotReign View Post
    People in this thread far more intelligent that I so correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't a large part of Jordan once Palestinian land? Where is the hue and cry for Jordan to "return" the land to the Palestinians?
    One big reason is because Jordan does not have the city of Jerusalem in it.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soberphobia View Post
    One big reason is because Jordan does not have the city of Jerusalem in it.
    That makes sense but it appears they have no problem with Jordan occupying their ancestoral land/territory.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatriotReign View Post
    That makes sense but it appears they have no problem with Jordan occupying their ancestoral land/territory.
    I guess this is true to an extent but the Israelis are not Arab for a start, and the Jordanians are obviously sympathetic to the Palestinians. The issues between the Arabs and the Jews in terms of Israel have gone on for around a century now (btw the Arabs have done some terrible things to the Jews in that time and visa versa). There's probably a wiki on this somewhere........and here it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli...inian_conflict

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soberphobia View Post
    I guess this is true to an extent but the Israelis are not Arab for a start, and the Jordanians are obviously sympathetic to the Palestinians. The issues between the Arabs and the Jews in terms of Israel have gone on for around a century now (btw the Arabs have done some terrible things to the Jews in that time and visa versa). There's probably a wiki on this somewhere........and here it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli...inian_conflict
    Right, and what all of that proves is the "they're on my ancestral land" argument is code for: "i hate Jews". Whether or not they have a good reason to hate Jews is another point entirely. It's disingenuous to represent the Palestinian "plight" as being about lost/stolen territory.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatriotReign View Post
    People in this thread far more intelligent than I so correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't a large part of Jordan once Palestinian land? Where is the hue and cry for Jordan to "return" the land to the Palestinians?
    Jordan is Palestine. It can not give back what it is anymore then Israel would. The West Bank was originally part of Trans Jordan. They abandoned it to Israel in 1967. Now the West Bank is part of Israel. The people here chiming about Israel building in Israels territory are clueless to the history and legalities. When the Palestinians went to the UN to bid for statehood they negated the Camp David accords which was the outline for an eventual Palestinian state. The areas being built up are not deep in the WB settlements, they are in a suburb of Jerusalem where 100's of thousands of Israelis live. Israelis do not consider the area a settlement.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soberphobia View Post
    I guess this is true to an extent but the Israelis are not Arab for a start, and the Jordanians are obviously sympathetic to the Palestinians. The issues between the Arabs and the Jews in terms of Israel have gone on for around a century now (btw the Arabs have done some terrible things to the Jews in that time and visa versa). There's probably a wiki on this somewhere........and here it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli...inian_conflict
    Here is a little fact that will blow your anti-Semitic perceptions up. You and your ilk hate Israel because you believe that a bunch of European Jews (obviously a group you despise) got up one day and decided to fly there and steal the land from the natives. The reality is that the majority of the Jews in Israel are Mizrachi or Eastern Jews. They are middle eastern and lived in Israel, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq and Iran and Libya etc for 1000's of years. These are dark skinned people of Middle Eastern birth no different from the Eqyptians and Syrians and Lebanese that today call themselves Palestinian. Those Mizrachi Jews that didn't migrate to Israel were kicked out of their homes and lands which they held for 1000's of years. Israel absorbed them. The overwhelming majority so called Palestinians were never kicked off their lands. The evidence are the 1+ million Israeli Arabs still living on their ancestral lands. It is all a bunch of BS really, the opinions of Jew hating Europeans and other are irrelevant and worthless. Your only motivation is your selfish and naive desire to appease the Arabs so they won't bother you. It won't happen and it wouldn't work regardless.

  8. #28
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    sorry mate, very late here but I am not anti-Semetic and not anti-Jewish. I think the Jewish people have every right to have their own state etc......the problem is people like you call people like me anti-Semetic when we point out some of the contradictions in the Jewish position, when I'm far from that. The issues are on both sides, not just the Arab side....the Jews do not have the sun shining out of their behinds on this one and it does your arguments no favours to call people like me anti-semetic just because I am critical of the Israeli government.

    Edit: just reread your post - I "despise" Jewish people? Geez man, get a grip. You are going way over the top. Stick to the arguments and try not to attack the man. You argue pretty well, though obviously we have some disagreements on this particular topic.
    Last edited by Soberphobia; 12-04-2012 at 10:53 AM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefst2000 View Post
    Jordan is Palestine. It can not give back what it is anymore then Israel would. The West Bank was originally part of Trans Jordan. They abandoned it to Israel in 1967. Now the West Bank is part of Israel. The people here chiming about Israel building in Israels territory are clueless to the history and legalities. When the Palestinians went to the UN to bid for statehood they negated the Camp David accords which was the outline for an eventual Palestinian state. The areas being built up are not deep in the WB settlements, they are in a suburb of Jerusalem where 100's of thousands of Israelis live. Israelis do not consider the area a settlement.
    If you're contention is that the West Bank and East Jerusalem belongs to Israel why aren't these people afforded the right to vote, get benefits, Israeli passports and otherwise partake in Israeli society as equals?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post
    What's pretty clear is the current Israeli government and Hamas are both on board with a one State solution. This government has done everything it can to give Hamas Cred and destroy Abbas.

    Stealing land and then swapping it. Stop the bull****.
    You know what, Winston? That's good advice. I suggest you take it.

    You claim Israel "stole land"? Back up the claim.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soberphobia View Post
    sorry mate, very late here but I am not anti-Semetic and not anti-Jewish. I think the Jewish people have every right to have their own state etc......the problem is people like you call people like me anti-Semetic when we point out some of the contradictions in the Jewish position, when I'm far from that. The issues are on both sides, not just the Arab side....the Jews do not have the sun shining out of their behinds on this one and it does your arguments no favours to call people like me anti-semetic just because I am critical of the Israeli government.

    Edit: just reread your post - I "despise" Jewish people? Geez man, get a grip. You are going way over the top. Stick to the arguments and try not to attack the man. You argue pretty well, though obviously we have some disagreements on this particular topic.
    I am generalizing Europeans in this topic. The hatred of Israel that comes out of Europe is born of traditional European anti-Semitism. It is weaved throughout your politics and more so in your news coverage. I was recently in Mexico and for whatever reason I was watching BBC world news. It was interesting that this news program which was 1 hour long and supposedly covered news events all throughout the news spent over 10 minutes of their broadcast covering Israel. This was not during any Gaza operation or anything like that. Just a regular news night. They spent almost 20% of their airtime on Israel. Why? Is there not a genocide taking place in Africa somewhere? Syrians are dying by the hundreds each day. It is a big world out there. Lots of stuff to cover.

    We see it here in the forums as well. We have non-Americans that show up and go wild every time the topic of Israel comes up. In a way who can blame them. When you live in a country that night after night on every news broadcast deamonizes a country in a false way what would stop a sheeple already inclined to dislike Jews from buying in to the crap they are spewing. If the BBC world news spends 10 minutes of a 50 minute broadcast every night on a tiny 6 million person country in a planet of 7 billion people its no wonder why attitudes are the way they are. People are sick of it and just want the situation to go away. That is what the Palestinians are counting on and people fall for it easily. I am 100% confident that my position on the issue is the right one. I am equally clear on who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. There is no moral ambiguity here.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soberphobia View Post
    One big reason is because Jordan does not have the city of Jerusalem in it.
    Odd. Because Jordan did, in fact, "have the city of Jerusalem in it" from 1948-1967. On your theory, there should have been a movement to "reclaim Palestine from the Jordanian occupiers" during those years. Yet, there wasn't.

    (In fact, here was the official PLO position on the West Bank and Gaza during that time frame, from Article 24 of the PLO Covenant: “This Organization (the PLO) does not exercise any regional sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, in the Gaza Strip or the Himmah area.”)

    Odd. One might almost think it had more to do with the fact that the Israelis are Jewish and the Jordanians are Arabs. But that can't be it, right? I await your clarification of the apparent contradiction

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axil View Post
    Right, and what all of that proves is the "they're on my ancestral land" argument is code for: "i hate Jews". Whether or not they have a good reason to hate Jews is another point entirely. It's disingenuous to represent the Palestinian "plight" as being about lost/stolen territory.
    This.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefst2000 View Post
    Jordan is Palestine. It can not give back what it is anymore then Israel would. The West Bank was originally part of Trans Jordan. They abandoned it to Israel in 1967. Now the West Bank is part of Israel. The people here chiming about Israel building in Israels territory are clueless to the history and legalities. When the Palestinians went to the UN to bid for statehood they negated the Camp David accords which was the outline for an eventual Palestinian state. The areas being built up are not deep in the WB settlements, they are in a suburb of Jerusalem where 100's of thousands of Israelis live. Israelis do not consider the area a settlement.
    All due respect, Chiefs, you've got the history wrong. Jordan was originally known as "Transjordan" when it was formed out of 80% of "Palestine", because it was the part of Mandatory Palestine which was across the Jordan river (hence "trans"). It dropped the "Trans" when it captured the West Bank during the 1948 war (illegally). Note that the 1948 war ended not with a truce or treaty and recognition of borders, but with an armistice that, at the insistence of the Arab states, expressly declared that all parties (including Israel) retained all rights and claims to the territory in dispute.

    Israel captured the land from Jordan in 1967. Jordan abandoned its claim to the West Bank when it entered into the treaty with Israel in the mid 90s

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by doggin94it View Post
    All due respect, Chiefs, you've got the history wrong. Jordan was originally known as "Transjordan" when it was formed out of 80% of "Palestine", because it was the part of Mandatory Palestine which was across the Jordan river (hence "trans"). It dropped the "Trans" when it captured the West Bank during the 1948 war (illegally). Note that the 1948 war ended not with a truce or treaty and recognition of borders, but with an armistice that, at the insistence of the Arab states, expressly declared that all parties (including Israel) retained all rights and claims to the territory in dispute.

    Israel captured the land from Jordan in 1967. Jordan abandoned its claim to the West Bank when it entered into the treaty with Israel in the mid 90s
    Hence why I said that Jordan is Palestine. The territory traditionally known as Palestine is mainly where Jordan is today. They took 80% and gave it to the Beduins in Jordan to control. Then sliced the last 20% up by giving the Jews of Palestine approximately 10% and the Arabs of Palestine got 80% plus the additional 10% encompassing Judea, Samaria and Gaza. This is semantics but since the Palestinian Arabs rejected the UN partition plan and chose war in 1948 Jordan took control of the West Bank. Egypt controlled Gaza.

    Looking back it was a mistake for the Israelis back in '67 to allow Jordan and Egypt to abandon those areas. Hindsight is 20/20 however and it would have been impossible to predict what was to come.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soberphobia View Post
    I guess this is true to an extent but the Israelis are not Arab for a start, and the Jordanians are obviously sympathetic to the Palestinians. The issues between the Arabs and the Jews in terms of Israel have gone on for around a century now (btw the Arabs have done some terrible things to the Jews in that time and visa versa). There's probably a wiki on this somewhere........and here it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli...inian_conflict
    Somewhere in my earlier post this point may have been lost. If an Arab is a person that hails from the Arabian peninsula then the majority of Israelis are in fact Arabian or Arab. The idea that Israelis are a bunch of European Colonialists that stole the land there on some sort of religious crusade is simply not factual.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by doggin94it View Post
    Agreed. After all, the Israelis are just as guilty as the Palestinians. They constantly educate their children to hate Palestinians, proclaim religious obligations to wipe out Palestinians, name streets and towns after the murderers of Palestinian civilians and indiscriminately lob rockets at Palestinian civilians.

    No, wait, only the Palestinians do that. But, apparently, building houses is the rough equivalent.

    False equivalence helps nobody, and it's nothing more than lazy analysis. Certainly isn't "intelligent"
    Doggin, nothing shows more laziness then spewing the narrative of the main stream American media. And I can tell you with a great degree of certainty that the picture presented to us is not the full reality; not even close to it.

    The average citizens who are caught up in the endless cycle of violence are the true victims, and they are on both sides.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefst2000 View Post
    I am generalizing Europeans in this topic. The hatred of Israel that comes out of Europe is born of traditional European anti-Semitism. It is weaved throughout your politics and more so in your news coverage. I was recently in Mexico and for whatever reason I was watching BBC world news. It was interesting that this news program which was 1 hour long and supposedly covered news events all throughout the news spent over 10 minutes of their broadcast covering Israel. This was not during any Gaza operation or anything like that. Just a regular news night. They spent almost 20% of their airtime on Israel. Why? Is there not a genocide taking place in Africa somewhere? Syrians are dying by the hundreds each day. It is a big world out there. Lots of stuff to cover.

    We see it here in the forums as well. We have non-Americans that show up and go wild every time the topic of Israel comes up. In a way who can blame them. When you live in a country that night after night on every news broadcast deamonizes a country in a false way what would stop a sheeple already inclined to dislike Jews from buying in to the crap they are spewing. If the BBC world news spends 10 minutes of a 50 minute broadcast every night on a tiny 6 million person country in a planet of 7 billion people its no wonder why attitudes are the way they are. People are sick of it and just want the situation to go away. That is what the Palestinians are counting on and people fall for it easily. I am 100% confident that my position on the issue is the right one. I am equally clear on who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. There is no moral ambiguity here.
    You have it right that I'm non-American. I'm not from Europe however and have never been there. I don't really watch any mainstream news - sometimes I will watch FoxNews or NBC sometimes (which we have out here on payTV) to see how opininon is runing in the USA.

    You seem definitely convinced of the rightness of your opinion - but a lot of the friends of Israel do not agree with you. The groundswell of opinion swinging against Israel out here is summed up in this article published in today's Sydney Morning Herald:

    "Israel decisively lost the support of the [ruling] Australian Labor Party last week when the party effectively overruled its leader, Julia Gillard, to stop her casting Australia's vote in support of Israel in the UN.

    And the men who led Labor away from Israel on this were the same men who led Labor towards Israel a generation ago - Bob Hawke and Bob Carr......

    ...... But now the same pair has led a spontaneous upswell of Labor frustration, impatience and anger against Israel. Hawke's former foreign affairs minister, Gareth Evans, had a central role. He made a speech, wrote an essay, held a caucus briefing, all arguing the case for supporting Palestine's aspirations to be recognised as a state. And Evans enlisted Hawke in lobbying the caucus. Hawke's stance assured younger Labor MPs that it was OK for pro-Israel politicians to defy its wishes on this matter.

    These grand old men of Labor are not anti-Israel. They argue that they are trying to save Israel from itself.

    How so? The biggest single source of Labor frustration with Israel under its current Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, is its policy of continuously expanding Jewish settlements on territory claimed by the Palestinians. Hawke, Carr, and the bulk of the Labor caucus believe that Netanyahu is unreasoningly belligerent. They argue that he is sabotaging any prospect of peace.

    They see Netanyahu pandering to extremists and the ultra-Orthodox, creeping towards the de facto creation of a Greater Israel that swallows up the Palestinians and their land. The ultimate effect? A permanent annexing of Palestine.

    This would create two classes of citizens, and the Palestinians, voteless, would be the second class. The world would respond with accusations of ''apartheid'' and boycott Israel. It would be a pariah, a version of South Africa under apartheid. And this, they argue, is the fate from which they are trying to save Israel......."

    link

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by doggin94it View Post
    You know what, Winston? That's good advice. I suggest you take it.

    You claim Israel "stole land"? Back up the claim.
    The current government of Israel is annexing the West Bank and East Jerusalem while maintaining a harsh occupation on the actual residents living in those areas. What do you call that if not theft?

    The current Israeli government and Hamas have the same goal, a one State solution.

    The US, England and Germany are all allies of Israel and all condemn these settlements and they are right to condemn them.
    Last edited by Winstonbiggs; 12-05-2012 at 07:18 AM.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soberphobia View Post
    You have it right that I'm non-American. I'm not from Europe however and have never been there. I don't really watch any mainstream news - sometimes I will watch FoxNews or NBC sometimes (which we have out here on payTV) to see how opininon is runing in the USA.

    You seem definitely convinced of the rightness of your opinion - but a lot of the friends of Israel do not agree with you. The groundswell of opinion swinging against Israel out here is summed up in this article published in today's Sydney Morning Herald:

    "Israel decisively lost the support of the [ruling] Australian Labor Party last week when the party effectively overruled its leader, Julia Gillard, to stop her casting Australia's vote in support of Israel in the UN.

    And the men who led Labor away from Israel on this were the same men who led Labor towards Israel a generation ago - Bob Hawke and Bob Carr......

    ...... But now the same pair has led a spontaneous upswell of Labor frustration, impatience and anger against Israel. Hawke's former foreign affairs minister, Gareth Evans, had a central role. He made a speech, wrote an essay, held a caucus briefing, all arguing the case for supporting Palestine's aspirations to be recognised as a state. And Evans enlisted Hawke in lobbying the caucus. Hawke's stance assured younger Labor MPs that it was OK for pro-Israel politicians to defy its wishes on this matter.

    These grand old men of Labor are not anti-Israel. They argue that they are trying to save Israel from itself.

    How so? The biggest single source of Labor frustration with Israel under its current Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, is its policy of continuously expanding Jewish settlements on territory claimed by the Palestinians. Hawke, Carr, and the bulk of the Labor caucus believe that Netanyahu is unreasoningly belligerent. They argue that he is sabotaging any prospect of peace.

    They see Netanyahu pandering to extremists and the ultra-Orthodox, creeping towards the de facto creation of a Greater Israel that swallows up the Palestinians and their land. The ultimate effect? A permanent annexing of Palestine.

    This would create two classes of citizens, and the Palestinians, voteless, would be the second class. The world would respond with accusations of ''apartheid'' and boycott Israel. It would be a pariah, a version of South Africa under apartheid. And this, they argue, is the fate from which they are trying to save Israel......."

    link
    A well presented counterpoint. I have heard the same types of things from leftist Jews in America that claim to be pro-Israel but say that Israel needs some "tough love". The argument is incorrect however as it is waged based on a straw man argument that Israel under Netanyahu or anyone else is trying to absorb the West Bank. They areas they approved for building are not in a zone that would ever be a part of a Palestinian nation. The Israelis have pulled their citizens out of the "outpost" types of settlements. Furthermore since Israel is a Democracy with voting rights for all her citizens including Arab, Jew and Christian there would never be any motivation to absorb the Palestinian Arabs into Israel as the Demographics would lead to the destruction of Israels character as a Jewish State. The Israelis are actually looking to do the opposite. They have a settlement just past the "armistice line" and there are arab villages on the Israeli side. The preference would be to put the arab village in what will be the new Palestinian State in exchange for shifting the Israeli Settlement to the Israeli side in a final negotiation. It's common sense and fair to all parties. The idea that the Israelis have a right wing government is also a stretch. Likud is a centrist party in Israel. They occupy the middle of the Israeli political spectrum. Yisrael Beitanu is the second largest party in Israel and they are to the right of Likud. Even they do not advocate annexing the West Bank. They prefer 2 states or giving the WB back to Jordan. There are ultra right wing parties that would prefer annexing the WB but they are religious based parties that get very little traction in Israel which (this may surprise you) is a mostly secular society.

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