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Thread: Don't Put Too Much Stock in Ryan's Disaster Season

  1. #21
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    IMO it's more about the QB than about the coach. Bill Belichick in Cleveland vs. New England. Peyton Manning taking Tony Dungy, Jim Caldwell and now John Fox to the playoffs.

    It's not a guarantee but I think a great coach often has a hard time winning with a mediocre QB....but I think a great QB can find ways to win with an average head coach.

    Does anybody think that Rex Ryan going 6-10 with Sanchez, a lack of offensive weapons (WR, RB, TE) and no Revis is actually a reasonable accomplishment? If Keller, Holmes and Revis were all healthy for the year I can guarantee AT LEAST 8 wins, probably closer to 9 or maybe 10. And with a good or very good QB???
    Last edited by jetstream23; 01-04-2013 at 07:08 PM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob0729 View Post
    This article is very misleading. Many of the coaches he list having multiple 10 loss seasons need clarification with them.

    Yes, Chuck Noll had two seasons where he lost 10 or more games, but that was in the mid-80s after the Steelers Curtain Defense rusted away and the team declined exponentially and he was a mediocre coach for his final 10 years.

    As for Belichick, two of his 10+ loss seasons were his first years in both Cleveland and New England and the other one was his last year in Cleveland where the team and fans quit because it was announced that they were moving to Baltimore midseason.

    Both of Holmgren's 10+ loss seasons were in Seattle and not Green Bay.

    Two of the three 10+ loss seasons for Shanahan were in Washington, not Denver. And the one in Denver was the first year post Elway when they were trying to find a new QB.

    Both Gibbs' 10+ loss seasons came when he came back to the NFL in 2004 where it was clear that the game had started to pass him by.

    I agree with the general premise that one bad season doesn't mean that Ryan or any other coach may be a bad coach, but I disagree with the evidence they back it up with. Guys like Noll and Gibbs got their 10+ loss seasons after their stars started to dim, not early in their head coaching careers. There is no comparison to Ryan's situation. Same with Belichick considering two of the three 10+ losing seasons were in clear rebuilding years where he inherited a mess and the other was the most unique season in NFL history.
    Ummm wrong

    What too many people forget is the injuries the team had this past year, which was the bigger reason Sanchez struggled, and the QB play regressed.

    As you said, even some of those HOF coaches had down seasons when they lost key players, or they started to dim. That very sentiment can be applied to players like Scott, Pace, and Thomas, amongst others.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetstream23 View Post
    IMO it's more about the QB than about the coach. Bill Belichick in Cleveland vs. New England. Peyton Manning taking Tony Dungy, Jim Caldwell and now John Fox to the playoffs.

    It's not a guarantee but I think a great coach often has a hard time winning with a mediocre QB....but I think a great QB can find ways to win with an average head coach.

    Does anybody think that Rex Ryan going 6-10 with Sanchez, a lack of offensive weapons (WR, RB, TE) and no Revis is actually a reasonable accomplishment? If Keller, Holmes and Revis were all healthy for the year I can guarantee AT LEAST 8 wins, probably closer to 9 or maybe 10. And with a good or very good QB???
    In Peyton's case he's his own OC he handles everything but the Defense and Special teams.. Brady is close to that level as well..

  4. #24
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    As for this thread, despite rmeyer52's obsession with starting new threads , it was a great read.

    But I'm not sure many on this board would even understand it.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Ray19 View Post
    Ummm wrong

    What too many people forget is the injuries the team had this past year, which was the bigger reason Sanchez struggled, and the QB play regressed.

    As you said, even some of those HOF coaches had down seasons when they lost key players, or they started to dim. That very sentiment can be applied to players like Scott, Pace, and Thomas, amongst others.
    what's the reason he struggled every other year, apologist
    You act as if he was a good QB headed into this year. Where have you been?

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santonio View Post
    what's the reason he struggled every other year, apologist
    You act as if he was a good QB headed into this year. Where have you been?
    No, I don't, not even close... Hater...

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Ray19 View Post
    Ummm wrong

    What too many people forget is the injuries the team had this past year, which was the bigger reason Sanchez struggled, and the QB play regressed.

    As you said, even some of those HOF coaches had down seasons when they lost key players, or they started to dim. That very sentiment can be applied to players like Scott, Pace, and Thomas, amongst others.
    LOL! I forgot Ryan is a rookie head coach or Woody announced that he was moving the team to Toledo this past October or Ryan came out of retirement after a decade long absence. Exactly how is his situation the same as Gibbs, Belichick, or Noll? Belichick's 10+ losses came in his first years with teams and one massively unique situation. Gibbs' came when he came out of retirement after a decade layoff with an owner who treats his team like a fantasy football team. Noll's came nearly a decade after the Steelers' Super Bowl teams (ok, 7 years and 9 years after the last Steelers Super Bowl win under Noll).

    Sorry, the injury excuse is bogus. Every team dealt with injuries this season. The Pats went 4-1 without Gronk who is more impactful than Holmes and almost as impactful as Revis (who wasn't missed nearly as much as people thought he would). The Patriots went to the Super Bowl last year so depleted in the secondary with injuries that they were playing a WR as their slot CB.

    The fact of the matter is the Jets are a bad team with very little talent. Maybe key injuries helped to expose how bad they truly are, but even with Holmes and Revis, this team probably doesn't win more than 7 or 8 games.

    Maybe Ryan can prove he is a good coach when he gets more talent, but I personally have some doubt since he seems so disinterested in the offense and seems to believe if he can a top defense that the offense is almost irrelevant (in an offense driven league). He could become a great head coach or show that he is really a great defensive coordinator who isn't suited for the head coach role. He is a players' coach and typically players head coach have short shelf lives to begin with because at some point the players tune out. Players' coaches tend to be far better coordinators.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob0729 View Post
    LOL! I forgot Ryan is a rookie head coach or Woody announced that he was moving the team to Toledo this past October or Ryan came out of retirement after a decade long absence. Exactly how is his situation the same as Gibbs, Belichick, or Noll? Belichick's 10+ losses came in his first years with teams and one massively unique situation. Gibbs' came when he came out of retirement after a decade layoff with an owner who treats his team like a fantasy football team. Noll's came nearly a decade after the Steelers' Super Bowl teams (ok, 7 years and 9 years after the last Steelers Super Bowl win under Noll).

    Sorry, the injury excuse is bogus. Every team dealt with injuries this season. The Pats went 4-1 without Gronk who is more impactful than Holmes and almost as impactful as Revis (who wasn't missed nearly as much as people thought he would). The Patriots went to the Super Bowl last year so depleted in the secondary with injuries that they were playing a WR as their slot CB.

    The fact of the matter is the Jets are a bad team with very little talent. Maybe key injuries helped to expose how bad they truly are, but even with Holmes and Revis, this team probably doesn't win more than 7 or 8 games.

    Maybe Ryan can prove he is a good coach when he gets more talent, but I personally have some doubt since he seems so disinterested in the offense and seems to believe if he can a top defense that the offense is almost irrelevant (in an offense driven league). He could become a great head coach or show that he is really a great defensive coordinator who isn't suited for the head coach role. He is a players' coach and typically players head coach have short shelf lives to begin with because at some point the players tune out. Players' coaches tend to be far better coordinators.
    It is not bogus

    When a QB doesn't have his WR's, his RB's or his TE's, that can hamper an offense. It's not rocket science.

    I'm not even suggesting the Jets need all pro talent, they didn't lose all pro talent everywhere either, but they lost their starting calliber talent all year long at all 3 skill positions, it was a rotational line-up of available players every week, and this was after losing Revis and Holmes.

  9. #29
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    i remember to listening to one of favre's pressers on sny. he described a play that was run during the game in such incredible detail. i can't remember if it was successful or not. the point is that some of these guys really understand the game and where players are supposed to be. i seriously doubt that sanchez has the same feel for the game. if he does then there may be some hope.

    Quote Originally Posted by Savage69 View Post
    In Peyton's case he's his own OC he handles everything but the Defense and Special teams.. Brady is close to that level as well..

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Ray19 View Post
    It is not bogus

    When a QB doesn't have his WR's, his RB's or his TE's, that can hamper an offense. It's not rocket science.

    I'm not even suggesting the Jets need all pro talent, they didn't lose all pro talent everywhere either, but they lost their starting calliber talent all year long at all 3 skill positions, it was a rotational line-up of available players every week, and this was after losing Revis and Holmes.
    Again, it is a different situation than the ones used as examples in the articles.

    The Jets fully healthy were were an 8-9 win team max and that may be generous. The Jets fully healthy barely have starters at any skill position on offense. Holmes and Keller are about it.

    You look at the playoff teams and you see plenty of teams that have lost tons of starters and still made the playoffs. The Pats lost plenty of starters from significant stretches including Gronk, Hernandez, Mankins, and Vollmer. The Packers have been decimated by injuries this season. The Redskins lost Brian Orakpo and Adam Carriker early in the season and lost several other starters and key role players on defense over the course of the season. The Texans lost Brian Cushing early, Brooks Reed and Jonathan Joseph for long stretches, and several other players during the course of the season.

    The Jets are not the only team dealing with significant injuries this year. Teams deal with big injuries every year. The good teams overcome them and the bad teams don't.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob0729 View Post
    Again, it is a different situation than the ones used as examples in the articles.

    The Jets fully healthy were were an 8-9 win team max and that may be generous. The Jets fully healthy barely have starters at any skill position on offense. Holmes and Keller are about it.

    You look at the playoff teams and you see plenty of teams that have lost tons of starters and still made the playoffs. The Pats lost plenty of starters from significant stretches including Gronk, Hernandez, Mankins, and Vollmer. The Packers have been decimated by injuries this season. The Redskins lost Brian Orakpo and Adam Carriker early in the season and lost several other starters and key role players on defense over the course of the season. The Texans lost Brian Cushing early, Brooks Reed and Jonathan Joseph for long stretches, and several other players during the course of the season.

    The Jets are not the only team dealing with significant injuries this year. Teams deal with big injuries every year. The good teams overcome them and the bad teams don't.
    That is your opinion, and nothing more. There is no way to give credence to it either way, so save it.

    And nobody asked about the Patriots in this thread homer.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Ray19 View Post
    That is your opinion, and nothing more. There is no way to give credence to it either way, so save it.

    And nobody asked about the Patriots in this thread homer.
    So the fact that Mike Tannebaum was fired gives no credence either way? If the Jets were a playoff quality team without injuries, why was Tannebaum fired? He can't control injuries. Maybe Woody Johnson is Pats homer. It seems pretty clear to everyone except you and a few others that the Jets are not a very talented team especially on offense.

    BTW, I actually originally gave no opinion on the Jets in this thread. Just pointed out the faulty logic in the article to back up his opinion to not damn Ryan after one losing season. In fact, I said his overall theory could be correct. Your obsession with me just couldn't accept that I was not commenting on the Jets at all, but the data used to support an opinion.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob0729 View Post
    So the fact that Mike Tannebaum was fired gives no credence either way? If the Jets were a playoff quality team without injuries, why was Tannebaum fired? He can't control injuries. Maybe Woody Johnson is Pats homer. It seems pretty clear to everyone except you and a few others that the Jets are not a very talented team especially on offense.

    BTW, I actually originally gave no opinion on the Jets in this thread. Just pointed out the faulty logic in the article to back up his opinion to not damn Ryan after one losing season. In fact, I said his overall theory could be correct. Your obsession with me just couldn't accept that I was not commenting on the Jets at all, but the data used to support an opinion.
    The Jets had talent, it was hurt for much of the year, that's the point I'm making, you're saying it's an excuse, it's not. They were in transition at the WR position with young players, but their top player went out for the year in week 3, their second starter was hurt all year in and out of the line-up then was lost for the year by week 12, they've had various injuries all year long at TE and RB. The QB play regressed, the injuries were a HUGE reason for the Jets regression this year.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmeyer52 View Post
    Don't Put Too Much Stock in Ryan's Disaster Season

    By MICHAEL SALFINO (WSK New York section)

    The Jets' disastrous 2012 season has soured many fans on Rex Ryan's coaching future. But a number of legendary NFL coaches have had multiple seasons with double-digit losses—and a few have even gone on to win the Super Bowl.

    Since the NFL went to a 16-game schedule in 1978, 10 coaches with at least 100 wins and a Super Bowl ring also lost 10 or more games at least twice, according to Stats LLC. Ryan, whose 10-loss season this year was his first in four seasons, doesn't have to look far for an example. His MetLife Stadium co-tenant, Tom Coughlin, made the postseason four straight years as the Jaguars' head coach. Like Ryan, he even took his team to the conference championship twice, only to lose. Then three straight 10-loss seasons followed. Coughlin ended up with the Giants, found his quarterback in Eli Manning and beat Tom Brady and Bill Belichick for the Lombardi Trophy—twice.

    Another ex-Giants (and Jets) coach, Bill Parcells, also won a Super Bowl after finishing 3-12-1 in 1983, though that was his first season coaching. That year, he badly mismanaged the quarterback situation, benching Phil Simms for Scott Brunner. He later took the Patriots to the Super Bowl, falling to Green Bay, after two more double-digit-loss seasons. Besides Coughlin and Parcells, three other coaches since 1978 shook off double-digit-loss seasons to win the Super Bowl—Belichick, Dick Vermeil and Bill Cowher.

    None of this means Ryan (34-30 in his career) is ticketed for coaching greatness. But one bad season doesn't necessarily rule it out. And there's no discounting the chance a coaching change may actually end up being best for Ryan. After all, Coughlin, Belichick and Vermeil all won their Super Bowls with new teams—and new quarterbacks.

    Here are Super Bowl-winning coaches with 100-plus career wins who lost 10 games or more multiple times (since 1978).

    COACH 10+ LOSS SEASONS CAREER RECORD SUPER BOWL WINS
    1 Mike Ditka 5 121-95
    2 Bill Parcells 4 172-130-1
    3 Tom Coughlin 4 151.121
    4 Bill Belichick 3 187-101
    5 Mike Shanahan 3 167-125
    6 Dick Vermeil 3 111-90
    7 Mike Holmgren 2 161-111
    8 Joe Gibbs 2 154-94
    9 Bill Cowher 2 149=90
    10 Chuck Noll 2 119-97
    Source: Stats LLC

    *won Super Bowl after double-digit-loss season
    Quote Originally Posted by BamaJets View Post
    Salfino does a good job. He always researches his articles to the absolute extreme before writing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mainejet View Post
    This article make way too much sense for anybody on this board to want to read.

    Message to all Rex haters...

    STFU
    I don't pay much attention to personalities on this board, but Mainejet your aggressive defense of Rex Ryan is ridiculous.

    The premise of this article is so flawed and biased I'd be embarrassed to post it here, let alone see it published anywhere.

    Good research?!

    Mike Ditka's record goes like this:
    3-6, 8-8, 10-6, 15-1 and a Super Bowl
    Bill Parcels:
    3-12, 9-7, 10-6, 14-2 and a Super Bowl
    Tom Coughlin:
    4-12, 9-7, 11-5, 11-5

    Notice a trend there?

    I know some of you guys think that sitting on 8-5 only to drop to 8-8 in 2011 is not a disaster but it is. Some arbitrary rule that only 10 losses is a disaster is silly.

    Also note that most of the guys on the list were canned after two equally bad or downward trending losing seasons in a row.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinny Testaverde's Niece View Post
    Rex has never bragged about himself. Ever. What coach wouldn't and shouldn't brag about his players? The legend and myth making continues.
    Rex called himself the best defensive coach in the NFL,before the season

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Ray19 View Post
    The Jets had talent, it was hurt for much of the year, that's the point I'm making, you're saying it's an excuse, it's not. They were in transition at the WR position with young players, but their top player went out for the year in week 3, their second starter was hurt all year in and out of the line-up then was lost for the year by week 12, they've had various injuries all year long at TE and RB. The QB play regressed, the injuries were a HUGE reason for the Jets regression this year.
    Yes the Jets had injuries this yr,however they remained mostly healthy along both offensive and defensive line or the heart of the team. Yes we were injuried more than normal this yr,however just a little worst than avg, for the league

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Ray19 View Post
    The Jets had talent, it was hurt for much of the year, that's the point I'm making, you're saying it's an excuse, it's not. They were in transition at the WR position with young players, but their top player went out for the year in week 3, their second starter was hurt all year in and out of the line-up then was lost for the year by week 12, they've had various injuries all year long at TE and RB. The QB play regressed, the injuries were a HUGE reason for the Jets regression this year.
    It is absolutely an excuse. 100% an excuse. The Jets were a .500 team at best coming into the season 100% healthy. They might have had a losing record because of injuries, but this team wasn't making the playoffs unless at least 5 or 6 of the top teams in the AFC left the NFL to reform the AFL.

    The Jets are a QB, RB, WR corp, TE, RT, and LB corp away from being a talented team and that is before free agency where you can add two starting guards and both safeties.

    I said before the season this was a 7-9 team. You claimed the fact the offense couldn't score a TD in the preseason was a media creation and the offense was fine. The reality is that even before Holmes went down (and is really that good anyway), the offense sucked except for a fluke game vs. a bad Bills' defense where Stephen Hill pretty much outproduced his production for the entire season in that one game .

    You really need to accept the fact that, other than a handful of players, the Jets are really devoid of talent and are going to massive rebuild mode this offseason. Other than Cromartie, Revis, Mangold, Wilkerson, Landry, and maybe Ferguson; none of the Jets players would be guaranteed starters on more than half the teams in the NFL. From a Pats' fan's point of view, those are the only ones I could see starting on the Patriots in any circumstance.
    Last edited by Rob0729; 01-05-2013 at 03:23 PM.

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