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Thread: Ground & Pound, one thing I want from the new NY Jets is...

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcola View Post
    I really don't think Gamble's offensive philosophy has been implemented yet in SF. Baalke, Gamble, and Harbaugh inherited an offense where the only skill position talent was Gore, Davis, and a raw Crabtree.

    If you look at the last two drafts, they took Kaepernick last year and took a very raw WR in Jenkins this year. I think if he had his way, we would have a very mobile QB and would implement a form of the pistol in certain situations.

    As far as the OC, I think with Rex being on the VERY hot seat, no OC worth a crap is going to come here unless they get a bucket of $. Reasons being, we sign them to a multi-year deal and they are stuck working with whoever the new coach is. Second, with the offense being so limited, with no cap availability and no blue chip prospects on the horizon, pretty good chance the offense holds the Jets back and the OC is to blame when the whole CS gets canned Jan. 2014.

    wasn't Capernicke a Harbaugh pick?

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by southparkcpa View Post
    wasn't Capernicke a Harbaugh pick?
    You never really know who to give credit or lay blame on for draft picks, tbh...

    Unless it's John Conner...

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by iahawkeyejet View Post
    There are more "run oriented" or balanced offensive teams in the playoffs than there are pass heavy teams.

    A good running game can still be the catalyst of a good offense, but if you don't have a capable QB to keep things balanced, that's where the problems come.

    And to base a statement off of the Vikings with their backup QB is pretty short sighted.
    Quote Originally Posted by McGinley View Post
    This. There are plenty of teams that are what you could call "ground & pound" that are successful. Ravens, 9ers, Seahawks, etc. The difference is that those teams have good QB play (usually) and so they just say they run the ball well. It's the ones like us who have some jagoff behind center that call themselves "ground & pound".
    And I'll take it a step further and point out that it takes good OL play to be successful with either a run-heavy, pass-heavy or balanced attack. Presently, the Jets do not possess a good OL, so talking about skill positions at this juncture is largely an exercise in Madden-esque futility.

    The OL needs to be addressed, badly. Brick appears to have settled back in, but Mangold needs to lose about 20 pounds. After that, it's marginal at best. Moore is as good as gone (fine) as is Slauson (would like to keep on a moderate contract) and Howard doesn't appear to be the answer at RT. Ducasse is only worthy of mention for the purpose of derision.

    Want running? The OL needs to be upgraded (unless you can find another Barry Sanders). Want passing? Someone better be able to provide whoever is throwing the ball more than 2-3 seconds of standing still to make a throw.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by iahawkeyejet View Post
    There are more "run oriented" or balanced offensive teams in the playoffs than there are pass heavy teams.

    A good running game can still be the catalyst of a good offense, but if you don't have a capable QB to keep things balanced, that's where the problems come.

    And to base a statement off of the Vikings with their backup QB is pretty short sighted.
    Agreed with you completely. To call a run oriented offense outdated based on Minnesota's backup qb who hadn't played a game all year is flimsy logic and just derails this thread. Of course you need a competent passer what else is new??? You also need competent OC and playcalling...

    What a concept!!

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetworks View Post
    And I'll take it a step further and point out that it takes good OL play to be successful with either a run-heavy, pass-heavy or balanced attack. Presently, the Jets do not possess a good OL, so talking about skill positions at this juncture is largely an exercise in Madden-esque futility.

    The OL needs to be addressed, badly. Brick appears to have settled back in, but Mangold needs to lose about 20 pounds. After that, it's marginal at best. Moore is as good as gone (fine) as is Slauson (would like to keep on a moderate contract) and Howard doesn't appear to be the answer at RT. Ducasse is only worthy of mention for the purpose of derision.

    Want running? The OL needs to be upgraded (unless you can find another Barry Sanders). Want passing? Someone better be able to provide whoever is throwing the ball more than 2-3 seconds of standing still to make a throw.
    Very good point - but an OL can be good at one thing and not so good at another. Take Brick as a case in point - great at pass blocking but average (at best) at run blocking. Fine, if that's what you want your line to do. But if you have a line that's great at pass blocking and have a ground and pound philosophy, you're not going to succeed.

    Even within each aspect, you can have different needs - a run blocking line could be great because they have monster sized guards who blow everyone backwards, or equally you could have a smaller, more agile line where your guards do a lot of pulling. So it's far from a "one size fits all".

    Question is - do you find players to suit your philosophy, or a philosophy to suit your players?

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by JamesR View Post
    Very good point - but an OL can be good at one thing and not so good at another. Take Brick as a case in point - great at pass blocking but average (at best) at run blocking. Fine, if that's what you want your line to do. But if you have a line that's great at pass blocking and have a ground and pound philosophy, you're not going to succeed.

    Even within each aspect, you can have different needs - a run blocking line could be great because they have monster sized guards who blow everyone backwards, or equally you could have a smaller, more agile line where your guards do a lot of pulling. So it's far from a "one size fits all".

    Question is - do you find players to suit your philosophy, or a philosophy to suit your players?
    In my opinion this is the single biggest problem that we have with this organization. There are a multitude of problems that are all on sanchez, but this team in NO WAY helped him play to his strengths. He should be running misdirection/rollout plays 10-15 times a game, he is not a drop back passer.

    Whoever comes in as the OC needs to be able to adapt to whoever we wind up with at QB, and this is why I think norv turner is the polar opposite of what we actually need. What is he going to do....try to make sanchez or whatever rookie QB we have run a vertical offense? That is ridciulous and more importantly much more difficult to have success with.

    Personally I hope we draft a kid like nassib and implement as much of his college offense as possible to eash the transition....the coaches should be the ones learning and developing whatever offense suits their team, not forcing a team to adapt to their "philosophy".

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by eaglenj View Post
    In my opinion this is the single biggest problem that we have with this organization. There are a multitude of problems that are all on sanchez, but this team in NO WAY helped him play to his strengths. He should be running misdirection/rollout plays 10-15 times a game, he is not a drop back passer.

    Whoever comes in as the OC needs to be able to adapt to whoever we wind up with at QB, and this is why I think norv turner is the polar opposite of what we actually need. What is he going to do....try to make sanchez or whatever rookie QB we have run a vertical offense? That is ridciulous and more importantly much more difficult to have success with.

    Personally I hope we draft a kid like nassib and implement as much of his college offense as possible to eash the transition....the coaches should be the ones learning and developing whatever offense suits their team, not forcing a team to adapt to their "philosophy".
    The OC and QB coach should always create a comfort zone for a young QB that you're just starting out to develop. If he's a very mobile QB with good running and escape ability skills...use that to help start the player off with some confidence and success.

    Imagine what Russell Wilson would look like, if he was hounded by Schotty/Sparano and their playbook's demands...along with Rex and Cavanaugh's approval!?! Molding him into a statue in the pocket...going through reads and progressions.

    What ends up happening...is that you're separating the player's QB instincts from his play. Never a good idea. You'll possibly end up with a QBot. Which is what Sanchez is today.

    Whatever Sanchez had as potential, is never going to be realized anymore. Not even as some form of serviceable mediocre backup QB. He's done. But in 2009, Sanchez should've been schemed in plays using his mobility 40-70% of the time. The entire OL should've been prepared for this. Cause Sanchez only had 16 college starts. Instead they were clueless in how to handle such a raw QB prospect as Sanchez. And they would've ruined a much better prospect then Sanchez...if presented the opportunity. That's my real point!

    It starts with the new GM...he has to take a hands on approach in the QB prospect's development. That should be reflecting in his choice for OC and QB coach. And Rex must be open to all three in how the QB should be handled and the offense run. If Rex is not open to input from them...then he needs to be shown the door.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by eaglenj View Post
    In my opinion this is the single biggest problem that we have with this organization. There are a multitude of problems that are all on sanchez, but this team in NO WAY helped him play to his strengths. He should be running misdirection/rollout plays 10-15 times a game, he is not a drop back passer.

    Whoever comes in as the OC needs to be able to adapt to whoever we wind up with at QB, and this is why I think norv turner is the polar opposite of what we actually need. What is he going to do....try to make sanchez or whatever rookie QB we have run a vertical offense? That is ridciulous and more importantly much more difficult to have success with.

    Personally I hope we draft a kid like nassib and implement as much of his college offense as possible to eash the transition....the coaches should be the ones learning and developing whatever offense suits their team, not forcing a team to adapt to their "philosophy".
    Excellent point. The sooner we get a change of mindset including new GM and Oc the better it is.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by jetswin View Post
    ...to leave this in the dust

    Anyone who watched yesterday's awful playoff games can plainly see that in today's NFL you have to throw the ball. Look at Minnesota owner's an all world RB who ran extremely well and a QB that has no right being in the league (where were the stats and talk of his horrendous play last night, if that had been Sanchez lol).

    Think back to the most successful NY Jet teams, early Namath hurling bombs, O'Brien outdueling Marino in aerial shows, Testaverde shredding D's. Sanchez led trips to Championship games were more a function of parity than good offenses imho and it's time to try another way.

    If for no other reason than for the fan's, who has a ridiculously high vested interest in their team today, entertainment put this G&P nonsense to sleep, forever.

    thanks for listening

    Talk about using the worst example ever! Your theory may be right, but dont use an example like this to prove your point. They were playing with a backup QB who has barely ever played before and who found out he was starting literally minutes before game time.

  10. #110
    Id agree that with the rule changes look at the qb's whove won since then all pretty damn good qb's..teams have recently won a super bowl having the worst running attack in the league..

    Problem is its not easy to get a elite qb so until you find one might as well try buildign a great defense first and a team that can run..

    Plus last year if not for a few fluke plays super bowl could have been Niners Ravens which means theyres still room for those types of teams to thrive even in todays NFL

    An elite QB makes it so much easier because it can hide and mask other wekanesses on your team but finding one is extremely hard..

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johhny Johnson View Post
    Id agree that with the rule changes look at the qb's whove won since then all pretty damn good qb's..teams have recently won a super bowl having the worst running attack in the league..

    Problem is its not easy to get a elite qb so until you find one might as well try buildign a great defense first and a team that can run..

    Plus last year if not for a few fluke plays super bowl could have been Niners Ravens which means theyres still room for those types of teams to thrive even in todays NFL

    An elite QB makes it so much easier because it can hide and mask other wekanesses on your team but finding one is extremely hard..
    Good post, well said!

  12. #112
    No we need to go back to this. We need better qb play when asked to. Alex Smith would fit perfectly. 2 afc championships. Do what got you to the dance. The problem is this team has no identity other then a above average defense this team is awful just flat out bad. Rex needs to find a way to bring back the identity this team had chip on it's shoulder in 09-10.The big apple took a bite out of everyone here now it's just a bunch of loud mouth punks. Sanchez has to go it has to be done he does not have the mental toughness nor the smarts to handle NY. Or a lights out offensive coordinator who has the history of developing qbs.

  13. #113
    Agree with the thread premise. No Ground n' Pound team has won a SB since Tampa in 2002. Why? Goodell changed the pass interference rules so DB's really could no longer do their job unless they were amazing like Revis. After that 2004 playoff game when there was backlash about the Pats holding Indy's receivers the entire AFCG Goodell was forced to change the rules and it transformed the NFL into a passing league.

  14. #114
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    Thank you for listening Rex...

    "Ground & Pound worked for'09"
    "We will be an attacking offense"

    Woohoo

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 2

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetswin View Post
    Thank you for listening Rex...

    "Ground & Pound worked for'09"
    "We will be an attacking offense"

    Woohoo

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 2
    Assuming he isn't lying he did admit he went to ground and pound after evaluating the roster.

    Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

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