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Thread: OLB/DE

  1. #1
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    OLB/DE

    Say we trade Revis to the Bucs for a 1st and 2nd

    Would anyone like the idea of drafting Ansah at 9 and Mingo/Jordan at 13

    then spend the rest of the draft on offensive players.

    fills our pass rush need and sets our defense for dominance

  2. #2
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    I love ansah at 9, but if we were gonna do something like that id rather see us take vaccaro at 13. Then go with a barret jones in the second and go from there.

    Those 3 would be excellent combinations of BPA and fill needs

  3. #3
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    This is a very deep OLB/DE draft I see no need to go crazy and draft 2 in the 1st. Last year yes but we didn't. OLB is a high priority but if we get one OLB #2 is less of a priority then RB, S, TE, G, or RT. I'd take Mingo in the 1st in a heart beat but there are so many good 2-4 round OLBs I see here I'd rather see us fill anther whole. If we had anther 1st. Yeah that high I am still NOT taking a G or TE but I don't think we will get that high of a pick and no way should this team be trading up unless it is for a QB.

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    I don't get the infatuation with Ansah at all. He is a Couples clone. I see a 4-3DE in him. We have holes at OLB and just drafted Wilk and Couples with consecutive 1st rounders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefst2000 View Post
    I don't get the infatuation with Ansah at all. He is a Couples clone. I see a 4-3DE in him. We have holes at OLB and just drafted Wilk and Couples with consecutive 1st rounders.
    While he can certainly fit as a 4-3 end, why cant you see him in the OLB/DE role that pace/suggs played in rex's defense?

    Furthermore, we have to remember that Idzik is getting final say here and there is a legitimate chance rex doesnt return, meaning we could easily have a 4-3 defense in 2014, so do you really pass on the highest upside pass rusher in this draft outside of damontre moore?

    Also, for the guys that want Mingo, do you not think he is "just a 4-3 end"? How would he be protected standing up at OLB in a 3-4 vs the run?

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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglenj View Post
    While he can certainly fit as a 4-3 end, why cant you see him in the OLB/DE role that pace/suggs played in rex's defense?

    Furthermore, we have to remember that Idzik is getting final say here and there is a legitimate chance rex doesnt return, meaning we could easily have a 4-3 defense in 2014, so do you really pass on the highest upside pass rusher in this draft outside of damontre moore?

    Also, for the guys that want Mingo, do you not think he is "just a 4-3 end"? How would he be protected standing up at OLB in a 3-4 vs the run?
    Mingo reminds me of Maybin a bit. Undersized for a DE and should be ok as a 3-4 OLB. I just see Ansah as a Couples clone. He is too big and does not have the cover experience for a 3 down LB. More of a hands in the dirt 4-3 DE. He actually would be a great fit in the Giants scheme taking over for Osi or Tuck. I like the player but we have taken a few high upside "raw" players the past few seasons with limited results. I don't see the point of grabbing a guy that doesn't fit the scheme.

  7. #7
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    The bucs gave up more than that for Gruden. I would at least ask for mike williams plus a 1 and 2 then we can maybe have some offense weapons.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefst2000 View Post
    Mingo reminds me of Maybin a bit. Undersized for a DE and should be ok as a 3-4 OLB. I just see Ansah as a Couples clone. He is too big and does not have the cover experience for a 3 down LB. More of a hands in the dirt 4-3 DE. He actually would be a great fit in the Giants scheme taking over for Osi or Tuck. I like the player but we have taken a few high upside "raw" players the past few seasons with limited results. I don't see the point of grabbing a guy that doesn't fit the scheme.
    I think we need to look at what our scheme really is. How often was Pace or more importantly terrell suggs in Baltimore in coverage? Very very rarely as they were too valuable rushing the passer. Suggs also was strong enough to play the run very well and fast enough to disrupt screens etc - basically exactly what we would ask ansah to do.

    Very rarely does Rex like to show a front with 3 down lineman and his OLBs standing up...usually one is standing and one is on the line.

    Also, while i definitely see where you see the cople comparison (both in the 6'5-6'6 area) but ansah is 270 (and he is a bit older so weight gain shouldnt be very big nor would we want him over 280) while coples is about 290 and will probably wind up playing at 295+. But more to their ability on the field, coples is a great 3-4 end as he is better on the interior then on the edge....he is more quick then fast and has ridiculous strength to play inside. Ansah was legitimately a track athlete at his size and can play off the line and chasing backside.

    I think they would be very complementary players.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglenj View Post
    I think we need to look at what our scheme really is. How often was Pace or more importantly terrell suggs in Baltimore in coverage? Very very rarely as they were too valuable rushing the passer. Suggs also was strong enough to play the run very well and fast enough to disrupt screens etc - basically exactly what we would ask ansah to do.

    Very rarely does Rex like to show a front with 3 down lineman and his OLBs standing up...usually one is standing and one is on the line.

    Also, while i definitely see where you see the cople comparison (both in the 6'5-6'6 area) but ansah is 270 (and he is a bit older so weight gain shouldnt be very big nor would we want him over 280) while coples is about 290 and will probably wind up playing at 295+. But more to their ability on the field, coples is a great 3-4 end as he is better on the interior then on the edge....he is more quick then fast and has ridiculous strength to play inside. Ansah was legitimately a track athlete at his size and can play off the line and chasing backside.

    I think they would be very complementary players.
    If he can play the OLB position then I'd be all for it. I'm just not sure.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglenj View Post
    I think we need to look at what our scheme really is. How often was Pace or more importantly terrell suggs in Baltimore in coverage? Very very rarely as they were too valuable rushing the passer. Suggs also was strong enough to play the run very well and fast enough to disrupt screens etc - basically exactly what we would ask ansah to do.

    Very rarely does Rex like to show a front with 3 down lineman and his OLBs standing up...usually one is standing and one is on the line.

    Also, while i definitely see where you see the cople comparison (both in the 6'5-6'6 area) but ansah is 270 (and he is a bit older so weight gain shouldnt be very big nor would we want him over 280) while coples is about 290 and will probably wind up playing at 295+. But more to their ability on the field, coples is a great 3-4 end as he is better on the interior then on the edge....he is more quick then fast and has ridiculous strength to play inside. Ansah was legitimately a track athlete at his size and can play off the line and chasing backside.

    I think they would be very complementary players.
    Exactly what i was thinking and if we can land Jordan he has the versatility to cover and put his hand in the dirt which would give us one of the most dynamic fronts in the league

  11. #11
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    @ProFootballWkly: One scout on BYU DE Ziggy Ansah: "He's a one-year wonder and a tweener." More in PFW's Draft Audibles - http://t.co/Tam2Nj8U

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    Quote Originally Posted by C Mart View Post
    @ProFootballWkly: One scout on BYU DE Ziggy Ansah: "He's a one-year wonder and a tweener." More in PFW's Draft Audibles - http://t.co/Tam2Nj8U

    Don't see how he fits in our defense.

    Even if we were a 4-3 base team, we'd have 3 guys who would either play the 3T tackle position or LE -- all first rounders. That'd be moronic.

    I'm all for getting an edge rusher, but we are in desperate need of a speed rusher, not another length and strength guy who would be a highly questionable fit at OLB.

  13. #13
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    Interesting article about Mingo and Montgomery.

    http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/...ersion-10.html


    As many NFL teams prepare to hold pre-combine draft meetings there will be a lot of debates going on about different player’s value as their skill sets are evaluated and compared to others who play their position. Obviously, the top players at each position will be compared as team’s try to determine which players best fit their offensive and defensive schemes. Today we compare LSU’s two junior defensive ends/pass rushers Barkevious Mingo and Sam Montgomery and try to determine where they fit best in the NFL.

    From their physique to the way they play the game, they are drastically different in nearly every area. Although both are estimated (As they are both underclassmen their actual height will not be determined until they are measured at the Combine) to be 6’5, they have different physiques. Mingo is a long and linear looking athlete with a wiry muscular appearance, while Montgomery is a thick and muscular defender who looks like he spends a lot of time in the weight room and definitely is a guy you want leading you team off the bus. Their appearances directly correlate to the style that they play.

    Mingo is a premier athletic talent who combination of explosiveness, quickness, agility, balance and flexibility give him the talent to defeat blocks easily when he has space to move. He relies on his initial quickness off the ball and speed to threaten the corner as an edge rusher. His agility allows him to change directions in a flash and he combines that with his good hand use to try and beat the pass blocker with a variety of secondary pass rush moves. The big issue is that that Mingo tends to get upright and gives up leverage often and combined with his thin frame he can be tied up and easily eliminated from the play if the offensive tackle can “get a good fit” on him. Much more effective rushing the passer from a wide alignment and chasing down running plays in pursuit, he is does not consistently produce when he does not attack the play aggressively which is too often. Additionally, if the pass blocker stops his initial attack, he has a tendency to get upright, does not stay after pass rush consistently and ends up “chicken fighting” with OT. Mingo’s lack of ideal bulk (He reportedly played in the high 230’s and low 240’s in 2012) hinders his ability to get a push when he bull rushes and to hold ground vs run blocks. While Mingo’s game is based around his athleticism and he flashes game changing production, Montgomery plays a different, but more consistent game.

    Thickly built with long arms, Montgomery is much more of a power player than an explosive one. Although his first step off the ball is good, he lacks the elite burst and speed to threaten the corner consistently and does not show burst out of change of direction to beat OT back inside. Rather than trying to beat OT with speed and quickness, he is much more productive when as a power rusher when he maintains leverage and uses hands aggressively. While he lacks the explosive secondary pass rush moves to cleanly beat OT if his initial rush is stopped, he consistently keeps feet moving and stays after rush which allows him to get some pressure on the QB through sheer effort and hustle. Although Montgomery is a drastically differently pass rusher than Mingo, the biggest difference between the two is against the run. Montgomery does a good job of taking on run blocks on running plays to his side, maintains his responsibility, uses his long arms to keep blocker at an arm’s length and can free up to make the tackle. While he lacks Mingo’s uncommon chase speed, he was consistently productive coming down the line to make tackles on running plays within the tackle box.

    There is no doubt in my mind that based on film evaluation, Montgomery has the better chance of being a solid, dependable starting defensive end in the NFL, but Mingo has the potential to be a more impactful player because of his rare physical talent. I believe Mingo would be best suited to playing outside linebacker in a 34 scheme where he could line up wider and farther away from the OT, which would allow him to rely upon his athleticism to defeat pass blocks. Additionally, lining up wide and in a two point stance would allow Mingo time to read and react to the play before having to take on and defeat a block. While I am confident that Montgomery could be a productive outside linebacker in a 34 scheme because he would be outstanding against the run and a solid pass rusher, his best position would be as a base 43 defensive end who can shut down the run to his side of the field and will get pressure on the QB through effort, technique and strength despite lacking elite athletic traits. Mingo is likely to be drafted higher, but if I were making the selection I would choose Montgomery as I feel he is a more complete all-around player who should be able to challenge for a starting job as a rookie. Mingo reminds me a little of former Titans' pass rusher Jevon Kearse and current Bengals' pass rusher Aaron Maybin, while Montgomery is more like the Ravens Paul Kruger.

  14. #14
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    I really don't understand why so many are so obsessed with building some kind of superunit on defense when our offense struggles just to score 10 points a game.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
    I really don't understand why so many are so obsessed with building some kind of superunit on defense when our offense struggles just to score 10 points a game.
    True, but at #9 if the Jets go offense it should be a OT, not a guard.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
    I really don't understand why so many are so obsessed with building some kind of superunit on defense when our offense struggles just to score 10 points a game.
    I'm not.

    My point is this:

    1) If a top edge rusher is available in the top ten -- Moore, Jones, Mingo -- I want him over Warmack. I'd rather have an edge rusher capable of 2-3 Pro Bowls over a guard capable of 5-6 Pro Bowlers. Why? Because after QB, no position is more important than edge rusher. It's a much more impactful position than guard, even if the guard is the best to come out since John Doe.

    2) If we take one of these edge rushers, we don't have to do d!ck with our defense for the rest of this draft and we can devote the rest to the offense, picking up a RB/TE/possible QB to groom/etc. We could also devote a large majority of the 2014 to the offense as well.

    Face it, even if we use a top 10 pick on offense this year, our offense is still going to suck. It's going to take more than one year to turn this turd ship around. As good as Warmack can be from the get go, he's not going to catalyze the offense himself.

    Going back to my earlier point in 2) ... if we get an edge rusher, we've now just built the nucleus to our defense for at least the next 4 years...and they'd all be getting paid on the cheap! Wilkerson, Coples, and the rookie OLB would all be making <$4MM/year. If they were veterans on the open market, those three guys would all be making double that. Having those guys at bargain prices would give us immense flexibility, meaning next offseason we could afford to make a free agent pickup or two to retool the offense and finally make it competitive in 2014, whether that be an offensive lineman, TE, WR, etc.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rexipus Rex View Post
    I'm not.

    My point is this:

    1) If a top edge rusher is available in the top ten -- Moore, Jones, Mingo -- I want him over Warmack. I'd rather have an edge rusher capable of 2-3 Pro Bowls over a guard capable of 5-6 Pro Bowlers. Why? Because after QB, no position is more important than edge rusher. It's a much more impactful position than guard, even if the guard is the best to come out since John Doe.

    2) If we take one of these edge rushers, we don't have to do d!ck with our defense for the rest of this draft and we can devote the rest to the offense, picking up a RB/TE/possible QB to groom/etc. We could also devote a large majority of the 2014 to the offense as well.

    Face it, even if we use a top 10 pick on offense this year, our offense is still going to suck. It's going to take more than one year to turn this turd ship around. As good as Warmack can be from the get go, he's not going to catalyze the offense himself.

    Going back to my earlier point in 2) ... if we get an edge rusher, we've now just built the nucleus to our defense for at least the next 4 years...and they'd all be getting paid on the cheap! Wilkerson, Coples, and the rookie OLB would all be making <$4MM/year. If they were veterans on the open market, those three guys would all be making double that. Having those guys at bargain prices would give us immense flexibility, meaning next offseason we could afford to make a free agent pickup or two to retool the offense and finally make it competitive in 2014, whether that be an offensive lineman, TE, WR, etc.
    Excellent post.

    A legitimate edge pass rusher, along with Wilk, QC, and Ellis would be just friggin' superb.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rexipus Rex View Post
    I'm not.

    My point is this:

    1) If a top edge rusher is available in the top ten -- Moore, Jones, Mingo -- I want him over Warmack. I'd rather have an edge rusher capable of 2-3 Pro Bowls over a guard capable of 5-6 Pro Bowlers. Why? Because after QB, no position is more important than edge rusher. It's a much more impactful position than guard, even if the guard is the best to come out since John Doe.

    2) If we take one of these edge rushers, we don't have to do d!ck with our defense for the rest of this draft and we can devote the rest to the offense, picking up a RB/TE/possible QB to groom/etc. We could also devote a large majority of the 2014 to the offense as well.

    Face it, even if we use a top 10 pick on offense this year, our offense is still going to suck. It's going to take more than one year to turn this turd ship around. As good as Warmack can be from the get go, he's not going to catalyze the offense himself.

    Going back to my earlier point in 2) ... if we get an edge rusher, we've now just built the nucleus to our defense for at least the next 4 years...and they'd all be getting paid on the cheap! Wilkerson, Coples, and the rookie OLB would all be making <$4MM/year. If they were veterans on the open market, those three guys would all be making double that. Having those guys at bargain prices would give us immense flexibility, meaning next offseason we could afford to make a free agent pickup or two to retool the offense and finally make it competitive in 2014, whether that be an offensive lineman, TE, WR, etc.
    If Rex is such a defensive guru, then we shouldn't have to spend 1st round picks on the defensive side year after year.

    Some of you guys are acting like we can only get a passrusher at #9.

    I personally have no problem with waiting and getting someone like Alex Okafor or Brandon Jenkins in the mid rounds.

    I have way more faith in a guy like Warmack being a stud OL for the next decade than I do with someone like Mingo or Ansah developing into an elite passrusher.

    It's time for this team to get some bluechip talent on the offensive side. Build up the OL and get back to pushing teams around.

  19. #19
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    If we are trading for picks then let's trade for picks, Revis and the 9 for picks this year, and next. We will be at 9 again next year.

  20. #20
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    DE/OLB Dion Jordan (Oregon) is widely considered the best 3-4 defense DE/OLB in the draft:



    Kiper, as of yesterday, had the Jets picking Dion Jordan with the 9th overall pick, a sure kiss of death.

    Trade Revis for QB Alex Smith a West Coast offense QB

    1st round pick. OLD/DE Dion Jordan (Oregon)

    http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/profil...dan?id=2539288

    2nd round pick. RB Joseph Randle (Oklahoma State) well fitted for a WCO.

    http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/profil...dle?id=2540171

    3rd round pick. S Tony Hefferson (Oklahoma).

    http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/profil...son?id=2540164

    Those are my picks and Im stickin' with 'em.... For now.

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