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Thread: Is the love for a "Pass Rusher" really all that and a bag of chips?

  1. #1
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    Is the love for a "Pass Rusher" really all that and a bag of chips?

    Hey Guys, I was driving home today and I had ESPN Radio on and (unfortunately) The Mike Lupica show was on. Being that I cannot stand him, I listened for the first five minutes. But in the first five minutes he brought up something that I did not realize about the Giants.

    Which was that the Giants pass defense was the in the bottom 5 of pass defenses in the NFL.

    Whoa whoa whoa, pump the brakes. You're telling me that a team with Umeniyora, JPP, Tuck, Canty, etc is number 27th in the league in pass defense?

    Then I looked it up.

    MOST teams with "elite pass rushers" are at the bottom of league of pass defense such as:

    Giants (27th)
    Dolphins (26th) (Cameron Wake) (even with 42 sacks)
    Vikings (23rd) (Jared Allen) (even with 44 sacks)
    Falcons (22nd)

    What about the Texans who had the defensive player of the year in J.J. Watt?
    Ranked 16th in Pass Defense.


    So what does the top 5 pass defenses (PIT, NYJ, DEN, SF, ARI) have that the bottom 5 pass defenses (NYG, NE, WAS, NO, TB) don't have ?

    A Secondary.

    Yes, pass rushers help. But they are not the end all/be all of having a good pass defense. It starts with your secondary.

    This post is for anyone who is running around with their hair on fire talking about how the Jets should be taking apart the secondary and add pass rushers because pass rushers are more valuable than CBs, Safeties, etc. Which IMO they are not. Pass rushers can get double teamed and can be taking out of the game (I.E J.J Watt and Aldon Smith in the playoffs), where as good CBs and Safeties can play a mix of zone and man thus confusing the opposing QB into coverage sacks and incompletions (I.E 2010 NE/NYJ Playoff game)

    Conclusion: Pass rushers AREN'T all of that and a bag of chips. Idk just food for thought.

  2. #2
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    I've been preaching that for a while. If you have 3 great pass rushers, great. But 1 or 2, how often do they get to the QB? A few times per game? Maybe as a team sack the QB 2-3 times? And then add a few more pressures? You need a plethora of pass rushers to make the defense dominant. On the other hand, Revis shuts down the best WR (Megatron, Andre JOhnson) and half the field every play.

    but when I analyze it, which I have, they are pretty much equally important. The jets don't generate that much pressure, but they've allowed -- under Rex -- under 55 completion percentage, which is ridiculous in this age and says a ton about the DBs.
    Last edited by BamaJets; 02-07-2013 at 08:04 PM.

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    It starts in the pits, pressure is the key and it doesn't have to be one guy.

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    Depends on what kind of chips.

  5. #5
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    Your logic is flawed. You can't say that pass rushers don't matter and then use teams like Pittsburgh (Harrison/Woodley), Denver (Miller/Dummervill), SF (Smith), and Arizona (Campbell/Dockett) as examples as to why a pass rusher is irrelevant. All of these teams btw are top 15 in the league in sacks. If anything, the Jets are the abnormality in the equation and you are actually making a point as to how much better our defense can be WITH a pass rusher.

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    How do you beat Brady? With 4 all star defensive backs?

    Teams that routinely beat Brady get pressure on him.

    Giants
    Ravens
    Steelers

    Just the short list.

    Anyway, our secondary looks to be dismantled soon, so I'm double worried.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by SyracuseJet View Post
    Your logic is flawed. You can't say that pass rushers don't matter and then use teams like Pittsburgh (Harrison/Woodley), Denver (Miller/Dummervill), SF (Smith), and Arizona (Campbell/Dockett) as examples as to why a pass rusher is irrelevant. All of these teams btw are top 15 in the league in sacks. If anything, the Jets are the abnormality in the equation and you are actually making a point as to how much better our defense can be WITH a pass rusher.
    +1

    Not to mention some of the league's best pass rushers are amazing against the run too i.e. JJ Watt, Von Miller, Jared Allen, etc.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Bandit View Post
    Hey Guys, I was driving home today and I had ESPN Radio on and (unfortunately) The Mike Lupica show was on. Being that I cannot stand him, I listened for the first five minutes. But in the first five minutes he brought up something that I did not realize about the Giants.

    Which was that the Giants pass defense was the in the bottom 5 of pass defenses in the NFL.

    Whoa whoa whoa, pump the brakes. You're telling me that a team with Umeniyora, JPP, Tuck, Canty, etc is number 27th in the league in pass defense?

    Then I looked it up.

    MOST teams with "elite pass rushers" are at the bottom of league of pass defense such as:

    Giants (27th)
    Dolphins (26th) (Cameron Wake) (even with 42 sacks)
    Vikings (23rd) (Jared Allen) (even with 44 sacks)
    Falcons (22nd)

    What about the Texans who had the defensive player of the year in J.J. Watt?
    Ranked 16th in Pass Defense.


    So what does the top 5 pass defenses (PIT, NYJ, DEN, SF, ARI) have that the bottom 5 pass defenses (NYG, NE, WAS, NO, TB) don't have ?

    A Secondary.

    Yes, pass rushers help. But they are not the end all/be all of having a good pass defense. It starts with your secondary.

    This post is for anyone who is running around with their hair on fire talking about how the Jets should be taking apart the secondary and add pass rushers because pass rushers are more valuable than CBs, Safeties, etc. Which IMO they are not. Pass rushers can get double teamed and can be taking out of the game (I.E J.J Watt and Aldon Smith in the playoffs), where as good CBs and Safeties can play a mix of zone and man thus confusing the opposing QB into coverage sacks and incompletions (I.E 2010 NE/NYJ Playoff game)

    Conclusion: Pass rushers AREN'T all of that and a bag of chips. Idk just food for thought.
    OK fine. Point taken. But what ind of sense does it make to turn a great pass rusher away during the draft? It makes zero sense.

    The Jets do have a very good secondary, but they could have an all world SB worthy defense if they could just add a decent pass rush.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainejet View Post
    OK fine. Point taken. But what ind of sense does it make to turn a great pass rusher away during the draft? It makes zero sense.

    The Jets do have a very good secondary, but they could have an all world SB worthy defense if they could just add a decent pass rush.
    D isn't the problem. O is now a huge problem you can have the greatest D in the world and you aren't going anywhere without a somewhat decent O.

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    Yeah, the problem with that theory is that when you are playing with a lead you tend to pass less. Whereas, if you are losing you pass more. That skews the stats.

    The falcons generally had the lead so opposing teams passed more to try and catch up. That leads to more attempts, yards, and tds through the air against the falcons D.

    The Jets generally did NOT have the lead and teams ran more then they might have otherwise. That leads to less attempts, yards, and tds by the opposing team against the Jets D.

    Plus anyone who watches the JETS has seen year after year the lack of consistent pressure and what it means for 3rd down conversions.

    When the Giants won those SB rings it was because they were able to get to the QB. They had nobodies as corners with lots of injuries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanMadman View Post
    Yeah, the problem with that theory is that when you are playing with a lead you tend to pass less. Whereas, if you are losing you pass more. That skews the stats.

    The falcons generally had the lead so opposing teams passed more to try and catch up. That leads to more attempts, yards, and tds through the air against the falcons D.

    The Jets generally did NOT have the lead and teams ran more then they might have otherwise. That leads to less attempts, yards, and tds by the opposing team against the Jets D.

    Plus anyone who watches the JETS has seen year after year the lack of consistent pressure and what it means for 3rd down conversions.

    When the Giants won those SB rings it was because they were able to get to the QB. They had nobodies as corners with lots of injuries.
    weak at lb too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SyracuseJet View Post
    Your logic is flawed. You can't say that pass rushers don't matter and then use teams like Pittsburgh (Harrison/Woodley), Denver (Miller/Dummervill), SF (Smith), and Arizona (Campbell/Dockett) as examples as to why a pass rusher is irrelevant. All of these teams btw are top 15 in the league in sacks. If anything, the Jets are the abnormality in the equation and you are actually making a point as to how much better our defense can be WITH a pass rusher.
    I think this.... we are good but with a few real pass rushers we could be scary good.

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    Interesting post.

    A lockdown corner like Revis can defend 3-5 passes a game, and that's just the times he is targeted.

    A HOF DE might have 150 sacks in his whole career.

    DB play still counts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John_0515 View Post
    How do you beat Brady? With 4 all star defensive backs?

    Teams that routinely beat Brady get pressure on him.

    Giants
    Ravens
    Steelers

    Just the short list.

    Anyway, our secondary looks to be dismantled soon, so I'm double worried.
    agreed. If we had a great passrush with this years secondary, it would be unstoppable. It was ranked #2 as it was!! And that is without Revis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kentucky Jet View Post
    agreed. If we had a great passrush with this years secondary, it would be unstoppable. It was ranked #2 as it was!! And that is without Revis.
    You draft a pass rushing OLB, get Landry (or equivalent) back there, Coples and Wilk are going to both be better, and the defense becomes scary.

    So we'll be 0-0 at the end of every game.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by SyracuseJet View Post
    Your logic is flawed. You can't say that pass rushers don't matter and then use teams like Pittsburgh (Harrison/Woodley), Denver (Miller/Dummervill), SF (Smith), and Arizona (Campbell/Dockett) as examples as to why a pass rusher is irrelevant. All of these teams btw are top 15 in the league in sacks. If anything, the Jets are the abnormality in the equation and you are actually making a point as to how much better our defense can be WITH a pass rusher.
    I'm not saying those top defenses didn't have top pass rushers. But look at their secondary.

    PIT (Ike Taylor, Palumalu, Ryan Clark)
    ARI (Peterson, Rhodes)
    Denver (Champ Bailey, Tracy Porter)
    SF (Carlos Rodgers, pretty much their whole secondary is outstanding)

    Like I said. Pass rushers help, but you put JJ Watt on the 2010 Texans, and they still would be getting annihilated in the pass game. It's not until they picked up Jonathan Joseph and a couple of others to turn that pass defense around.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDNYjets View Post
    Depends on what kind of chips.
    Sour Cream and Onion

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    What about 49ers (Aldon Smith)? Houston (JJ Watt)? Falcons (Abe)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by John_0515 View Post
    How do you beat Brady? With 4 all star defensive backs?

    Teams that routinely beat Brady get pressure on him.

    Giants
    Ravens
    Steelers

    Just the short list.

    Anyway, our secondary looks to be dismantled soon, so I'm double worried.
    +1

    Giants have had Brady's number for years and they use the SIMPLEST DEFENSE. Rush 4, drop 7. Sack him and knock his passes down at LOS. No gimmicks.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_0515 View Post
    How do you beat Brady? With 4 all star defensive backs?

    Teams that routinely beat Brady get pressure on him.

    Giants
    Ravens
    Steelers
    Just the short list.

    Anyway, our secondary looks to be dismantled soon, so I'm double worried.
    Steelers?

    Brady is 6-2 versus the Steelers.

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