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Thread: Cimini: Sunday notes: A challenging QB market

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlickBri481 View Post
    Peter King wrote in MMQB that scouts are telling him this is the weakest QB class since 1997 (Jim Druckenmiller was first QB selected in late 20s that year). I have a hard time believing the 2014 class will be viewed in that manner. Barkley never had elite physical tools (height, arm, mobility) regardless of what scouts thought of him heading into last season. Regardless of what you might think could happen to guys like Bridgewater and Manziel in the next season, in my opinion they clearly have better physical tools than Barkley whose biggest positive was being polished and playing in a pro style offense.

    I hope we do take a QB, but just based on what I saw from these guys last year in college, I don't think any of them would start for us day 1 unless we landed Smith at #9.
    I’m no fan of Barkley, but to say Manziel is perceived as having more physical tools to run a conventional pro-style offense is a stretch.
    How many 6’1” dudes get drafted in round 1?

    I do like Bridgewater, but he doesn’t have an NFL build (at least right now) and was a bit injury plagued this season. He also didn’t put up outrageous #’s in what is deemed a weak conference, his out of conference schedule had some real creampuffs as well. He threw 2 tds or less in 10 games this season and average yard totals, so wasn’t exactly a prolific passer like you would like to see in a top 5 selection.


    I think it’s hard to say Bridgewater/Manziel would be clear better NFL prospects when you consider the time frames involved.
    USC was the preseason #1 team in 2012.

    It’s easy to arm chair QB now because we have the benefit of seeing how the season unfolded poorly for USC/Barkley.
    Same thing could happen to Bridgewater and Manziel.

    That’s nice that Peter King is looking to make headlines, other analysts are saying that when all is said and done multiple QB’s will be drafted in round 1…

    We’ll see.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monsterxman View Post
    I’m no fan of Barkley, but to say Manziel is perceived as having more physical tools to run a conventional pro-style offense is a stretch.
    How many 6’1” dudes get drafted in round 1?

    I do like Bridgewater, but he doesn’t have an NFL build (at least right now) and was a bit injury plagued this season. He also didn’t put up outrageous #’s in what is deemed a weak conference, his out of conference schedule had some real creampuffs as well. He threw 2 tds or less in 10 games this season and average yard totals, so wasn’t exactly a prolific passer like you would like to see in a top 5 selection.


    I think it’s hard to say Bridgewater/Manziel would be clear better NFL prospects when you consider the time frames involved.
    USC was the preseason #1 team in 2012.

    It’s easy to arm chair QB now because we have the benefit of seeing how the season unfolded poorly for USC/Barkley.
    Same thing could happen to Bridgewater and Manziel.

    That’s nice that Peter King is looking to make headlines, other analysts are saying that when all is said and done multiple QB’s will be drafted in round 1…

    We’ll see.
    Manziel has elite mobility. Height and arm he's probably near Barkley. Point being, nothing about Barkley was elite or special outside of scouts thinking he was a polished passer who ran a pro style offense. He isn't very tall, has only a slightly above average arm, and has below average mobility. His draft stock at the moment is more in line with his physical abilities than what scouts may have thought about him last season.

    I completely disagree with your assessment of Bridgewater. He has good height, very good, accurate arm, and excellent mobility. Much higher ceiling than Barkley. Made two very good defenses look bad while being surrounded with only average skill players. Basically, while your boy Glennon couldn't overcome an average D (Vandy) and you blame it on lack of playmakers, Bridgewater took average playmakers and completely shredded an elite D (Florida) within the same week. He also showed toughness playing through injury against a very good Rutgers D. Overall, his numbers weren't outrageous, but he was very accurate and had a low INT total. Rodgers was 24/8 his final year at Cal, very accurate, low turnovers. Bridewater was just 27/8 and very accurate. Wilson and RG3 final season of college, very accurate, low turnovers. Same with Luck. That's what I look for.

    We obviously view accuracy and turnovers at QB position very differently. You seem enthralled by perceived gunslingers with big yardage totals who give it to the other team a ton and don't complete a high percentage (Barkley, Glennon). I like a different style

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlickBri481 View Post
    Using it to show that Ryan during his college career was viewed as a completely different level of player than Glennon was. You're the one who initially compared them. Don't overlook the spotlight v. obscurity intangible angle either. Ryan was used to the national spotlight on him and playing in big games. Glennon played in complete obscurity and there is no way to predict how he would handle the NY market and a huge spotlight on him. Otherguys have overcome that though, Flacco and Cutler being good examples. I would say Eli too because his college team wasn't very good, but you can't be in obscurity when you are Peyton's little brother.
    I can see that argument.
    There’s something to be said of being the guy.
    In the end, I don’t think we are that far off anyway on him.
    I have never said take Glennon at #9. 2nd Round is likely where he goes if it’s the Jets.

    I do think he sneak into the mid first though after workouts, though.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monsterxman View Post
    I can see that argument.
    There’s something to be said of being the guy.
    In the end, I don’t think we are that far off anyway on him.
    I have never said take Glennon at #9. 2nd Round is likely where he goes if it’s the Jets.

    I do think he sneak into the mid first though after workouts, though.
    To be clear, I don't want the Jets drafting this guy to be our "QB of the future." If they took him after round 1 to develop him and hope maybe one day it pans out, I could live with it. I certainly wouldn't be cheering the selection. I think it will be tough for him if he comes to this market. The majority of the fanbase doesn't seem to like him as a prospect. I don't think he'd get much of a fair shake and the spotlight would be huge on him if we threw him in there from day 1. Basically, I don't see his career turning out very well if we select him and throw him into the fire. He'd be better off going somewhere like Buffalo or Jacksonville. Right now, this fanbase has little patience and Rex is going to be coaching for his job, it's not a good situation for any rookie QB

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlickBri481 View Post
    Manziel has elite mobility. Height and arm he's probably near Barkley. Point being, nothing about Barkley was elite or special outside of scouts thinking he was a polished passer who ran a pro style offense. He isn't very tall, has only a slightly above average arm, and has below average mobility. His draft stock at the moment is more in line with his physical abilities than what scouts may have thought about him last season.

    I completely disagree with your assessment of Bridgewater. He has good height, very good, accurate arm, and excellent mobility. Much higher ceiling than Barkley. Made two very good defenses look bad while being surrounded with only average skill players. Basically, while your boy Glennon couldn't overcome an average D (Vandy) and you blame it on lack of playmakers, Bridgewater took average playmakers and completely shredded an elite D (Florida) within the same week. He also showed toughness playing through injury against a very good Rutgers D. Overall, his numbers weren't outrageous, but he was very accurate and had a low INT total. Rodgers was 24/8 his final year at Cal, very accurate, low turnovers. Bridewater was just 27/8 and very accurate. Wilson and RG3 final season of college, very accurate, low turnovers. Same with Luck. That's what I look for.

    We obviously view accuracy and turnovers at QB position very differently. You seem enthralled by perceived gunslingers with big yardage totals who give it to the other team a ton and don't complete a high percentage (Barkley, Glennon). I like a different style
    Manziel is no better of a prospect than Russell Wilson.
    Had Wilson not shown so much this year, I doubt Manziel would get drafted before round 3.

    I like Bridgewater far better than any QB in this year’s draft.
    I wasn’t bashing the player, my point was that he has question marks just like anybody else.

    You can say how great he was against Florida, but you can also say he was bad against 3-9 Florida Int, and how he wasn’t asked to do much (95 yards throwing) against 0-12 Southern Miss.. Their schedule wasn’t hard either.

    Also to say Bridgewater had nothing is wrong – he had Devante Parker, who is a pretty talented WR (10 tds) and 2 solid RB’s who totaled over 2035 yards (1500 rushing and 500 receiving) and 22 tds…

    Who did Glennon have?

    I don’t like gunslinger Qb’s and wouldn’t classify Glennon as one. He’s more of system QB, check down QB with a big arm that allows him to challenge outside the numbers from time to time. Like in between a Ryan/Flacco.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monsterxman View Post
    MI like Bridgewater far better than any QB in this year’s draft.
    I wasn’t bashing the player, my point was that he has question marks just like anybody else.

    You can say how great he was against Florida, but you can also say he was bad against 3-9 Florida Int, and how he wasn’t asked to do much (95 yards throwing) against 0-12 Southern Miss.. Their schedule wasn’t hard either.

    Also to say Bridgewater had nothing is wrong – he had Devante Parker, who is a pretty talented WR (10 tds) and 2 solid RB’s who totaled over 2035 yards (1500 rushing and 500 receiving) and 22 tds…

    Who did Glennon have?

    I don’t like gunslinger Qb’s and wouldn’t classify Glennon as one. He’s more of system QB, check down QB with a big arm that allows him to challenge outside the numbers from time to time. Like in between a Ryan/Flacco.
    I would point out that the Southern Miss game was in an absolute torrential downpour (like almost nothing I've ever seen). Passing the ball to usual standards was just not possible in that weather. Check recruiting rankings the last few years, Louisville even with Strong has not done very well. And when Strong first took over a couple years ago, they were a dead program coming off of a truly terrible coach. You point out these skill players, but these were not top recruits by any stretch. Their production if anything can be credited to Bridgewater (who was highly recruited). I'll admit to being less well versed on Glennon and having only seen him play a couple times. I just wasn't impressed and there clearly was very little buzz about him in general throughout the college season. His draft impact and status seem to have risen since the season ended (another red flag in my opinion). I can't get over the INT total though in a mediocre conference, that's just awful any way you spin it. After Sanchez this fanbase will not tolerate a guy turning it over a ton, he'll be getting booed after a couple of games if that is the case.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlickBri481 View Post
    Manziel has elite mobility. Height and arm he's probably near Barkley. Point being, nothing about Barkley was elite or special outside of scouts thinking he was a polished passer who ran a pro style offense. He isn't very tall, has only a slightly above average arm, and has below average mobility. His draft stock at the moment is more in line with his physical abilities than what scouts may have thought about him last season.
    Manziel does not have elite mobility. Guys like Vick, RG3, and Kaepernick have elite mobility. I'd be extremely surprised if Manziel runs any better than a 4.7, good athlete but certainly not elite.

    And arm strength wise, yeah he's comparable to Barkley, but definitely not in terms of height. Barkley is a legit 6'2 220+, Manziel isn't a hair over 6'0 even and is 200 lbs soaking wet.

    The kid is a great college QB, but I don't buy this talk of him being a Top 3 pick for a second.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
    Manziel does not have elite mobility. Guys like Vick, RG3, and Kaepernick have elite mobility. I'd be extremely surprised if Manziel runs any better than a 4.7, good athlete but certainly not elite.

    And arm strength wise, yeah he's comparable to Barkley, but definitely not in terms of height. Barkley is a legit 6'2 220+, Manziel isn't a hair over 6'0 even and is 200 lbs soaking wet.

    The kid is a great college QB, but I don't buy this talk of him being a Top 3 pick for a second.
    Yup, if Manziel is 6'1 (like he is listed) then Sanchez is 6'6. And Manziel is probably closer to 175 than he is to 200.

    Slickbri would have to watch just ONE Aggie game to realize that the height and weight the school lists is a joke.

    Edit to add that Manziel does have elite, or at the least, near elite mobility. His speed may not be 4.4, but its closer to 4.5 than 4.7 and he is very quick and elusive. Andrew Luck ran a 4.59 and Manziel is faster than him, Plus Manziel has execellent quickness. His problem is his arm strength and size.
    Last edited by revischrist; 02-19-2013 at 01:02 PM.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
    Manziel does not have elite mobility. Guys like Vick, RG3, and Kaepernick have elite mobility. I'd be extremely surprised if Manziel runs any better than a 4.7, good athlete but certainly not elite.

    And arm strength wise, yeah he's comparable to Barkley, but definitely not in terms of height. Barkley is a legit 6'2 220+, Manziel isn't a hair over 6'0 even and is 200 lbs soaking wet.

    The kid is a great college QB, but I don't buy this talk of him being a Top 3 pick for a second.
    Barkley isn't as big as you think, I would not be surprised if he only measured in around 6'1" at the combine. Manziel's height is certainly up for deabte, but he's more solid than you given him credit for. He's got some muscle on him. I'm not saying Manziel is can't miss guaranteed star, I would just expect he'll have a chance to be drafted very high and teams will be very intrigued by his mobility (plus the recent success Wilson had at a shorter height). He's way faster than you are giving him credit for, put aside his ethnicity and just watch him run. He was able to outrun fast SEC defenders. And if that conference has a calling card, it is SPEED on D.

  10. #130
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    I think Manziel is pretty fast… seen him outrun defenders. Got to be a 4.5 guy. Still, I don’t think he compares well right now vs. Wilson, who is the only guy you might be able to compare him to who has had success in today’s NFL.

    Wilson has a thick lower body and better arm.

    Manziel might be a guy like Tebow. Unique college talent, but doesn’t have a true position/place in the NFL.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by revischrist View Post
    Edit to add that Manziel does have elite, or at the least, near elite mobility. His speed may not be 4.4, but its closer to 4.5 than 4.7 and he is very quick and elusive. Andrew Luck ran a 4.59 and Manziel is faster than him, Plus Manziel has execellent quickness. His problem is his arm strength and size.
    If Manziel were black, people would compare his elusiveness to Vick (even if he isn't quite as fast). Since he's white, everyone underrates his mobility. I can probably say with some certainty I have never seen a white QB as quick and elusive as he is.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monsterxman View Post
    I think Manziel is pretty fast… seen him outrun defenders. Got to be a 4.5 guy. Still, I don’t think he compares well right now vs. Wilson, who is the only guy you might be able to compare him to who has had success in today’s NFL.

    Wilson has a thick lower body and better arm.

    Manziel might be a guy like Tebow. Unique college talent, but doesn’t have a true position/place in the NFL.
    He isn't the passer Wilson was at Wisconsin (not yet at least). Better runner though. Let's see how he develops his passing for next season, a lot can change with an offseason of putting in work. I think he could develop as a passer the way RG3 has, people forget RG3 was thought of as mostly a runner in college even though he put up good passing numbers. His passing skill at least through one season translated well to the NFL

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlickBri481 View Post
    Barkley isn't as big as you think, I would not be surprised if he only measured in around 6'1" at the combine. Manziel's height is certainly up for deabte, but he's more solid than you given him credit for. He's got some muscle on him. I'm not saying Manziel is can't miss guaranteed star, I would just expect he'll have a chance to be drafted very high and teams will be very intrigued by his mobility (plus the recent success Wilson had at a shorter height). He's way faster than you are giving him credit for, put aside his ethnicity and just watch him run. He was able to outrun fast SEC defenders. And if that conference has a calling card, it is SPEED on D.
    I'm not saying that Manziel isn't an elite athlete because he's white, I'm going by what I've seen of him on the field.

    He's not even close to as fast or explosive as a guy like RG3 or Kaepernick in the open field. He's a good athlete who can make some plays with his legs, but he certainly doesn't possess "elite" mobility like you claim.

    And I'm not underestimating Manziel's size at all. The guy is small as hell. Guys like Russell Wilson and Drew Brees are the exception, not the rule. I don't buy this argument for one second that teams are going to start flocking to these shrimp QB's just because Wilson took the league by storm last year. Everyone still wants that 6'4+, 230+ guy behind center.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
    I'm not saying that Manziel isn't an elite athlete because he's white, I'm going by what I've seen of him on the field.

    He's not even close to as fast or explosive as a guy like RG3 or Kaepernick in the open field. He's a good athlete who can make some plays with his legs, but he certainly doesn't possess "elite" mobility like you claim.

    And I'm not underestimating Manziel's size at all. The guy is small as hell. Guys like Russell Wilson and Drew Brees are the exception, not the rule. I don't buy this argument for one second that teams are going to start flocking to these shrimp QB's just because Wilson took the league by storm last year. Everyone still wants that 6'4+, 230+ guy behind center.
    Agree to disagree.

    I do find it interesting though that you are very quick to point holes in a number of good, intriguing prospects, but somehow completely taken by a mediocre college player and prospect such as Glennon. Doesn't make much sense to me, especially knowing how much you dislike our own inaccurate, turnover-prone QB

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    He will get his computerized draft rating and will be like a 2-4 round projection. His main value is his reputation and human elements which you can't put on paper. There are just too many things working against him to overcome as a pro QB IMO. I think any GM making that pick realizes he is putting his team in a hard spot. He will have a Quinn/Tebow fan following that will make it hard for the team that drafts him to operate. Coaches will be forced to make him sink or swim which for some is a death sentence. He is easy a bigger bust risk then anyone getting a 1-2 round rating this year.

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by revischrist View Post
    Yup, if Manziel is 6'1 (like he is listed) then Sanchez is 6'6. And Manziel is probably closer to 175 than he is to 200.

    Slickbri would have to watch just ONE Aggie game to realize that the height and weight the school lists is a joke.

    Edit to add that Manziel does have elite, or at the least, near elite mobility. His speed may not be 4.4, but its closer to 4.5 than 4.7 and he is very quick and elusive. Andrew Luck ran a 4.59 and Manziel is faster than him, Plus Manziel has execellent quickness. His problem is his arm strength and size.
    This. No chance in hell Manziel is even 6 feet tall. None. Hell he looks more like 5'9" maybe 5'10". Go watch the pregame tape of his bowlgame this past season. He's standing in the tunnel waiting to come out next to all his lineman. If' he's 6'1" then his entire line is 7 feet tall.

  17. #137
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    College rushing numbers last full season played:

    Player A: 179 rushes, 699 yards, 3.9 YPC, 10 TDs
    Player B: 201 rushes, 1410 yards, 7.0 YPC, 21 TDs
    Player C: 173 rushes, 1206 yards, 7.0 YPC, 20 TDs
    Player D: 217 rushes, 910 yards, 4.2 YPC, 14 TDs
    Player E: 114 rushes, 617 yards, 5.9 YPC, 8 TDs

    who is who?
    Last edited by SlickBri481; 02-19-2013 at 01:48 PM.

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snell41 View Post
    This. No chance in hell Manziel is even 6 feet tall. None. Hell he looks more like 5'9" maybe 5'10". Go watch the pregame tape of his bowlgame this past season. He's standing in the tunnel waiting to come out next to all his lineman. If' he's 6'1" then his entire line is 7 feet tall.
    Agreed. If he measures more than 5'10" I will be shocked. Look at him at the Heisman awards, he still looks like a high school kid. Manti Teo was WAY taller than him.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlickBri481 View Post
    Agree to disagree.

    I do find it interesting though that you are very quick to point holes in a number of good, intriguing prospects, but somehow completely taken by a mediocre college player and prospect such as Glennon. Doesn't make much sense to me, especially knowing how much you dislike our own inaccurate, turnover-prone QB
    You're making it sound like I'm touting Glennon as some kind of can't miss, once in a generation prospect.

    Does he have flaws? Sure, him and just about every QB prospect not named Andrew Luck.

    I like Glennon because he has all the physical tools that you look for, is said to be very coachable, and is a tough kid and a hardworker. He also consistently made throws at NC State that a ton of QB's never even attempt at the college level. He doesn't get rattled whatsoever after a mistake either. A farcry from Sanchez.

    His problems like footwork and questionable accuracy are things that can be easily corrected with proper coaching. Hell, the majority of young QB's prospects suffer from these exact same deficiencies.

    He has the highest upside of any QB in this draft class. So yeah, why not take a shot at him if he's still there in the 2nd round? Hell, I'd have no problem with jumping back into the bottom of the 1st to take him.

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
    You're making it sound like I'm touting Glennon as some kind of can't miss, once in a generation prospect.

    Does he have flaws? Sure, him and just about every QB prospect not named Andrew Luck.

    I like Glennon because he has all the physical tools that you look for, is said to be very coachable, and is a tough kid and a hardworker. He also consistently made throws at NC State that a ton of QB's never even attempt at the college level. He doesn't get rattled whatsoever after a mistake either. A farcry from Sanchez.

    His problems like footwork and questionable accuracy are things that can be easily corrected with proper coaching. Hell, the majority of young QB's prospects suffer from these exact same deficiencies.

    He has the highest upside of any QB in this draft class. So yeah, why not take a shot at him if he's still there in the 2nd round? Hell, I'd have no problem with jumping back into the bottom of the 1st to take him.
    He's a statue, so no he does not have all the physical tools. There's more to playing QB than being tall and having a big arm, if that was all you needed, Jamarcus Russell would be in the Hall of Fame

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