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Thread: Cimini: Sunday notes: A challenging QB market

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
    You're making it sound like I'm touting Glennon as some kind of can't miss, once in a generation prospect.

    Does he have flaws? Sure, him and just about every QB prospect not named Andrew Luck.

    I like Glennon because he has all the physical tools that you look for, is said to be very coachable, and is a tough kid and a hardworker. He also consistently made throws at NC State that a ton of QB's never even attempt at the college level. He doesn't get rattled whatsoever after a mistake either. A farcry from Sanchez.

    His problems like footwork and questionable accuracy are things that can be easily corrected with proper coaching. Hell, the majority of young QB's prospects suffer from these exact same deficiencies.

    He has the highest upside of any QB in this draft class. So yeah, why not take a shot at him if he's still there in the 2nd round? Hell, I'd have no problem with jumping back into the bottom of the 1st to take him.
    Exactly. If you read any of the scouting reports on the QBs, they all list "footwork" and "decision making" as negatives. 99% of QBs coming out of college have things that need to be coached up. You look at the positives and then get an idea of what the ceiling could be if he corrects a couple things in his game.

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlickBri481 View Post
    He's a statue, so no he does not have all the physical tools. There's more to playing QB than being tall and having a big arm, if that was all you needed, Jamarcus Russell would be in the Hall of Fame
    Jamarcus Russell was a lazy douche who had his work ethic and commitment to the game questioned from the get-go. That isn't the case with Glennon at all.

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlickBri481 View Post
    College rushing numbers last full season played:

    Player A: 179 rushes, 699 yards, 3.9 YPC, 10 TDs
    Player B: 201 rushes, 1410 yards, 7.0 YPC, 21 TDs
    Player C: 173 rushes, 1206 yards, 7.0 YPC, 20 TDs
    Player D: 217 rushes, 910 yards, 4.2 YPC, 14 TDs
    Player E: 114 rushes, 617 yards, 5.9 YPC, 8 TDs

    who is who?
    Just in case anyone was wondering

    Player A: RG3
    Player B: Manziel
    Player C: Kaepernick
    Player D: Tebow
    Player E: Vick

    Manziel arguably had the most dominant rushing season a college QB has ever had, especially when you consider he played in the brutal SEC. Kaepernick enjoyed huge numbers in the WAC. Tebow's low YPC coupled with very high rush attempts foretold his slow-plodding style and likely inability to transition to the pros as a passer or effective runner. RG3's low YPC was the result of eating way too many sacks while scrambling and trying to be a pass-first player. Vick also ran sparingly, but the high YPC showed he would be effective. Manziel just dominated the best defensive conference in football with his legs, so to suggest he has anything other than elite mobility is just laughable to me. Say what you want about his height and weight, but this kid is as dominant a rushing QB as you will ever see on the college level.

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlickBri481 View Post
    Just in case anyone was wondering

    Player A: RG3
    Player B: Manziel
    Player C: Kaepernick
    Player D: Tebow
    Player E: Vick

    Manziel arguably had the most dominant rushing season a college QB has ever had, especially when you consider he played in the brutal SEC. Kaepernick enjoyed huge numbers in the WAC. Tebow's low YPC coupled with very high rush attempts foretold his slow-plodding style and likely inability to transition to the pros. RG3's low YPC was the result of eating way to many sacks while scrambling and trying to be a pass-first player. Vick also ran sparingly, but the high YPC showed he would be effective. Manziel just dominated the best defensive conference in football with his legs, so to suggest he has anything other than elite mobility is just laughable to me. Say what you want about his height and weight, but this kid is as dominant a rushing QB as you will ever see on the college level.
    Manziel's running ability will mean little in his evaluation as an NFL QB. You really think an NFL team wants a guy who is 5'10" 185 running through an NFL defense??

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by sec.101row23 View Post
    Manziel's running ability will mean little in his evaluation as an NFL QB. You really think an NFL team wants a guy who is 5'10" 185 running through an NFL defense??
    To call him 5'10", 185 is disingenuous since you have nothing factual to support those numbers with other than your own conjecture. He's not listed at those numbers, he's never been officially measured at those numbers. At the very least, he's at least Vick's size. Has he had any success running at the pro level? I forget

    Would I want a guy who absolutely annihilated and destroyed SEC Ds with tons of future NFL players? No, anything but that Let's instead draft a QB in the middle rounds who had a mediocre college career and just hope and pray. That's the ticket

    I mean, I'm sure NFL teams did not factor in Cam Newton or RG3's rushing abilities when making them top selections.
    Last edited by SlickBri481; 02-19-2013 at 02:19 PM.

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlickBri481 View Post
    To call him 5'10", 185 is disingenuous since you have nothing factual to support those numbers with other than your own conjecture. He's not listed at those numbers, he's never been officially measured at those numbers. At the very least, he's at least Vick's size. Has he had any success running at the pro level? I forget

    Would I want a guy who absolutely annihilated and destroyed SEC Ds with tons of future NFL players? No, anything but that

    I mean, I'm sure NFL teams did not factor in Cam Newton or RG3's rushing abilities when making them top selections.
    I'd be willing to bet that Manziel is closer to 5'10 185 than his listed height/weight of 6'1 210.

    And yeah, Vick has had success running in the NFL. He's also been injured a sh*tload of times and he's WAY more explosive than Manziel, even now at 30+ years old, nevermind 8-10 years ago.

    And a guy like Cam isn't even comparable. You're talking about a 6'5 250 QB with 4.5 speed and a cannon for an arm. He's a freak.

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
    I'd be willing to bet that Manziel is closer to 5'10 185 than his listed height/weight of 6'1 210.

    And yeah, Vick has had success running in the NFL. He's also been injured a sh*tload of times and he's WAY more explosive than Manziel, even now at 30+ years old, nevermind 8-10 years ago.

    And a guy like Cam isn't even comparable. You're talking about a 6'5 250 QB with 4.5 speed and a cannon for an arm. He's a freak.
    You'd be willing to bet, but you have nothing to substantiate it with. Worth mentioning, the guys who called the Cotton Bowl both commented that they thought Manziel was over 6 feet and much bigger than people realized. They met with Manziel in person. Should I take their word or yours? What has a better indicia of reliability? I'm gonna stick with them for now until you get me something more concrete than blind belief.

    Vick was not way more explosive than Manziel in college, far from it as the numbers clearly show. Manziel hasn't played yet in the NFL so we can't compare at that level. So once again, you're giving me nothing except biased opinion not based on any facts or reality. Vick's 40 and top-end speed are faster, but being an effective runner at any level is so much more than that. We don't rank the greatest runners of all-time from best to worst by their 40 times.

    I only brought in Cam because he might be the only college QB in history that had a comparable rushing season to Manziel in a great defensive conference like the SEC. His running ability translated to the NFL. I recognize that physically he is much bigger, but I'm not talking about throwing at the moment. And every running style is different. Cam's might be more physical, but an elsuive shifty style can be equally effective, it has been in the SEC. You could also say that Cam's size makes him a bigger, easier to find target when he takes off, that eventually caught up to Vince Young too
    Last edited by SlickBri481; 02-19-2013 at 02:37 PM.

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlickBri481 View Post
    You'd be willing to bet, but you have nothing to substantiate it with. Worth mentioning, the guys who called the Cotton Bowl both commented that they thought Manziel was over 6 feet and much bigger than people realized. They met with Manziel in person. Should I take their word or yours? What has a better indicia of reliability? I'm gonna stick with them for now until you get me something more concrete than blind belief.

    Vick was not way more explosive than Manziel in college, far from it as the numbers clearly show. Manziel hasn't played yet in the NFL so we can't compare at that level. So once again, you're giving me nothing except biased opinion not based on any facts or reality. Vick's 40 and top-end speed are faster, but being an effective runner at any level is so much more than that. We don't rank the greatest runners of all-time from best to worst by their 40 times.

    I only brought in Cam because he might be the only college QB in history that had a comparable rushing season to Manziel in a great defensive conference like the SEC. His running ability translated to the NFL. I recognize that physically he is much bigger, but I'm not talking about throwing at the moment. And every running style is different. Cam's might be more physical, but an elsuive shifty style can be equally effective, it has been in the SEC. You could also say that Cam's size makes him a bigger, easier to find target when he takes off, that eventually caught up to Vince Young too

    Manziel is a more explosive runner than Vick at the college level? That might be the silliest damn thing I've ever heard.

    Michael Vick is the most dynamic scrambling QB to ever step on a football field. Especially when he was at VA Tech.

    You're seriously reaching here

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
    Manziel is a more explosive runner than Vick at the college level? That might be the silliest damn thing I've ever heard.

    Michael Vick is the most dynamic scrambling QB to ever step on a football field. Especially when he was at VA Tech.

    You're seriously reaching here
    Why is it silly? Is it better to average more yards per carry or less yards per carry? Gain more yards or less yards? Rush for more TDs or less TDs?

    Vick can have explosive, at least on the college level I'll take the guy that played in a better conference and was far more effective running it. I'm certainly not questioning Vick's rushing abilities at all, you're just insanely underrating how good of a runner Manziel is. You act as if he is just another run of the mill QB who occasionally scrambles. Dude just ran for 1,400, 7.0 YPC, and 21 TDs in the SEC, you know, the conference known for top defenses and produced the last how many national champions? BTW, he destroyed national champion Alabama's D this past season on their home field and broke the all-time record for single game rushing yards by a QB in the Cotton Bowl (against traditional power Oklahoma). This is clearly "just another guy"

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlickBri481 View Post
    Why is it silly? Is it better to average more yards per carry or less yards per carry? Gain more yards or less yards? Rush for more TDs or less TDs?

    Vick can have explosive, at least on the college level I'll take the guy that played in a better conference and was far more effective running it. I'm certainly not questioning Vick's rushing abilities at all, you're just insanely underrating how good of a runner Manziel is. You act as if he is just another run of the mill QB who occasionally scrambles. Dude just ran for 1,400, 7.0 YPC, and 21 TDs in the SEC, you know, the conference known for top defenses and produced the last how many national champions? BTW, he destroyed national champion Alabama's D this past season on their home field and broke the all-time record for single game rushing yards by a QB in the Cotton Bowl. This is clearly "just another guy"
    Michael Vick was one of the most explosive, dynamic players, regardless of position, that I've ever seen play college football.

    To compare Manziel to Vick is beyond ridiculous.

    The only explanation for this comparison is that you never saw Vick play in college. Otherwise you would know how ludicrous it is.

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
    Michael Vick was one of the most explosive, dynamic players, regardless of position, that I've ever seen play college football.

    To compare Manziel to Vick is beyond ridiculous.
    Even though Manziel's numbers absolutely blow away Vick's and he did it against better competition? To you, they can't even be compared?

    So in your mind, your perception of two guys is the "be all, end all," and what they actually did on the field can just be ignored because it doesn't fit your pre-determined narrative. Great way to analyze players.

    Vick was a phenomenal college player, but to act like Manziel isn't is just lunacy. Have you even watched him play? You think they vote freshman as the Heisman winners all the time?

  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlickBri481 View Post
    Why is it silly? Is it better to average more yards per carry or less yards per carry? Gain more yards or less yards? Rush for more TDs or less TDs?

    Vick can have explosive, at least on the college level I'll take the guy that played in a better conference and was far more effective running it. I'm certainly not questioning Vick's rushing abilities at all, you're just insanely underrating how good of a runner Manziel is. You act as if he is just another run of the mill QB who occasionally scrambles. Dude just ran for 1,400, 7.0 YPC, and 21 TDs in the SEC, you know, the conference known for top defenses and produced the last how many national champions? BTW, he destroyed national champion Alabama's D this past season on their home field and broke the all-time record for single game rushing yards by a QB in the Cotton Bowl (against traditional power Oklahoma). This is clearly "just another guy"
    The guy had some pretty beastly OL leading the way in Joeckel and Matthews not to mention guys like Swope and Michael....SEC or not that cannot be discounted.Can't remember what Vick had for a supporting cast but I'd be surprised if it comes close to what Manziel benefitted from at A&M

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlickBri481 View Post
    Even though Manziel's numbers absolutely blow away Vick's and he did it against better competition? To you, they can't even be compared?

    So in your mind, your perception of two guys is the "be all, end all," and what they actually did on the field can just be ignored because it doesn't fit your pre-determined narrative. Great way to analyze players.

    Vick was a phenomenal college player, but to act like Manziel isn't is just lunacy. Have you even watched him play? You think they vote freshman as the Heisman winners all the time?
    LOL

    Yes, I could care less what the numbers say. The numbers also say that Colt Brennan sh*t on Andrew Luck's college career.

    If you think Manziel is even half as explosive as Vick was with the Hokies, then you're out of your mind and clearly didn't watch Vick play college ball, or at least you have a very vague remembrance of it.

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
    LOL

    Yes, I could care less what the numbers say. If you think Manziel is even half as explosive as Vick was with the Hokies, then you're out of your mind and clearly didn't watch Vick play college ball, or at least you have a very vague remembrance of it.
    Vick was very explosive, but not very smart and did not have very good instincts on the field. This has repeatedly plagued him throughout his pro career as well. Would Vick beat Manziel in the 40 and agilitiy drills at the combine? Yes. Did Vick get the most out of his athleticism that translated to tangible results? Not even close. You don't put up the numbers Manziel did against good Ds without being very explosive. It is just not possible. No way you've seen him play much to dismiss him to the extent you are though, that's just straight hating in my opinion, backed up by your "LOL" type comments that you continually find yourself resorting to in this discussion.

    Let's also not forget you are the same guy who ignorantly described Manziel's abilities earlier in the thread as:

    "He's a good athlete who can make some plays with his legs, but he certainly doesn't possess "elite" mobility like you claim."

    The bolded portion really speaks to your lack of familiarity with his game and the season he just had. Really no point in debating this further.
    Last edited by SlickBri481; 02-19-2013 at 03:12 PM.

  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlickBri481 View Post
    Vick was very explosive, but not very smart and did not have very good instincts on the field. This has repeatedly plagued him throughout his pro career as well. Would Vick beat Manziel in the 40 and agilitiy drills at the combine? Yes. Did Vick get the most out of his athleticism that translated to tangible results? Not even close. You don't put up the numbers Manziel did against good Ds without being very explosive. It is just not possible. No way you've seen him play much to dismiss him to the extent you are though, that's just straight hating in my opinion, backed up by your "LOL" type comments that you continually find yourself resorting to in this discussion.

    When did I dismiss Manziel?

    I've already said that he's a great college QB.

    But as good, if not better, of a runner as Michael Vick?

    Future Top 3 pick?

    No, that's just laughable.

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
    When did I dismiss Manziel?

    I've already said that he's a great college QB.

    But as good, if not better, of a runner as Michael Vick?

    Future Top 3 pick?

    No, that's just laughable.
    Well, didn't you say you liked the Sanchez pick back in 2009 and thought he would become a really good player? Some would say given Sanchez's skillset that was a laughable view to take as well. Some might say believing Glennon will be anything but a huge bust is laughable as well.

    I guess we'll find out

  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlickBri481 View Post
    Well, didn't you say you liked the Sanchez pick back in 2009 and thought he would become a really good player? Some would say given Sanchez's skillset that was a laughable view to take as well. Some might say believing Glennon will be anything but a huge bust is laughable as well.

    I guess we'll find out
    Yeah, I did like Sanchez going into the '09 draft, who was much more of a prototypical QB than Manziel with experience in a pro style offense. Didn't realize we'd have have to hold the kids hand for 5 years but hey, even the Kiper's and Mayock's make mistakes.

    You're acting like I'm proclaiming that Manziel will never amount to anything in the pros simply because I've said that he isn't as dynamic of a runner as Vick (fact) and I don't view him as a Top 3 pick.

    If Manziel is a Top 3 pick next April, then it will sure as hell be a milestone.

    I've never seen a 6'0 200 QB with a so-so arm go in the Top 10, much less the Top 3. And I've followed college football and the draft very closely for going on 30 years now.

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
    Jamarcus Russell was a lazy douche who had his work ethic and commitment to the game questioned from the get-go. That isn't the case with Glennon at all.
    Alright Then I have a better comparison

    Gabbert. Terrible under pressure

    Edit: I honestly don't see Manziel going before Boyd. By the end of the day,if manziel declares next year, he'd be the third or fourth best QB

  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
    Yeah, I did like Sanchez going into the '09 draft, who was much more of a prototypical QB than Manziel with experience in a pro style offense. Didn't realize we'd have have to hold the kids hand for 5 years but hey, even the Kiper's and Mayock's make mistakes.

    You're acting like I'm proclaiming that Manziel will never amount to anything in the pros simply because I've said that he isn't as dynamic of a runner as Vick (fact) and I don't view him as a Top 3 pick.

    If Manziel is a Top 3 pick next April, then it will sure as hell be a milestone.

    I've never seen a 6'0 200 QB with a so-so arm go in the Top 10, much less the Top 3. And I've followed college football and the draft very closely for going on 30 years now.
    The problem was that Sanchez had so many weapons and so little experience at USC for anyone to see past his deficiencies.

    Looking back now, Sanchez had issues in college with ball placement, something that is so much harder to see in college than the pro's and only compounded when every receiver you throw to is wide open.

    I think it was Marino who said, good quarterbacks can throw a ball and place it in a receivers mid-section consistently. A great quarterback can hit his receiver in the belt buckle constantly.

    Throws outside the numbers are up and outside or low and outside

    Screens are up and inside

    Over the middle is in the chest

    etc.

    All were things that if you watch on tape, Sanchez couldn't do from inside the pocket. And are the same things that Glennon can't do at all

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreshBaked 24 7 View Post
    The problem was that Sanchez had so many weapons and so little experience at USC for anyone to see past his deficiencies.

    Looking back now, Sanchez had issues in college with ball placement, something that is so much harder to see in college than the pro's and only compounded when every receiver you throw to is wide open.

    I think it was Marino who said, good quarterbacks can throw a ball and place it in a receivers mid-section consistently. A great quarterback can hit his receiver in the belt buckle constantly.

    Throws outside the numbers are up and outside or low and outside

    Screens are up and inside

    Over the middle is in the chest

    etc.

    All were things that if you watch on tape, Sanchez couldn't do from inside the pocket. And are the same things that Glennon can't do at all
    Good post but to my admittedly untrained eye what I've seen of Glennon he absolutely puts the ball in those spots.He's consistently hitting guys on crossing patterns in the hands and he really has a shocking number of good throws dropped.

    I also see him constantly getting the ball away under immediate and intense pressure and another thing I noticed is that almost every intermediate or long throw he's having to hit guys who are blanketed.I honestly don't see WR's getting even partially,never mind wide,open.Sure there's the odd throw that's a bad miss but again how much is that guys not being where they should be on routes?When he misses on long outside throws he at least seems to put the ball where only his guy can get it.He must've had some shockers that I haven't seen admittedly but I can totally see why people fall in love with him as a passer.

    Not saying he's a top ten pick but I just like what I see.I guess scouts get paid to work these things out and time will tell but I wonder just how much his supporting cast had to do with some of his issues.And far from seeing an inaccurate QB I actually think that out of this class,accuracy is not nearly as bad as his 58.5% completion percentage indicates.

    I should really go back and look at some of Sanchez in college because I'm pretty sure his numbers indicated he was an accurate QB but as we all now know reading and reacting and the short game are just not there but I don't remember hat being obvious at the time.

    In short I think Glennon is better than his numbers maybe indicate.

    Contrast with Nassib and to a lesser extent Tyler Bray.There are a lot of absolutely wild throws in there with those guys.

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