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Thread: More teachers union hypocracy

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by stanner View Post
    Shouldn't that all take place before a teacher gets tenured?
    Because how a person acts in the first 3 years of a job when they can be fired and are therefore on their best behavior is always indicative of the way they will act the remaining 37 years of their bulletproof career, right?

  2. #22
    I have been responsible for hiring not firing.
    The teaching profession is a very difficult profession because they do not only deal with the child but also the parents. Parents are horrific today and I know of course we are the exception to that statement.

    Teachers do not pick the curriculum, students or the schedule, yet they take all the blame formal of them.



    Quote Originally Posted by Trades View Post
    I have been responsible for hiring and firing, have you? As a manager I have tried to work with people to help them improve. Sometime it just doesn't work. It probably is the fault of both of us to some extent but that doesn't mean that I should be required to keep someone that isn't producing just because they did well in the interviews and they had a good resume. It also doesn't mean that if all attempts at coaching doesn't help a person improve that I shouldn't be able to fire them.

    The worst part of trying to coach a teacher is that if the teacher is horrible and/or apathetic it is the students that suffer. That extra year of coaching or probation that a teacher gets can harm the future of the 20 or so kids that the teacher has in their class for the year(s) they are learning to do their jobs. It is all about the kids right? Or is it actually about entitlement for the teachers?

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by copernicus View Post
    Failing schools because the teachers are bad?


    Failing schools because of failing teachers is like saying the people in Chernobyl who are dying of cancer is the fault of the doctors.....
    So why bother teaching failing students at all? Seems like a complete waste of money.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by cr726 View Post
    I have been responsible for hiring not firing.
    The teaching profession is a very difficult profession because they do not only deal with the child but also the parents. Parents are horrific today and I know of course we are the exception to that statement.

    Teachers do not pick the curriculum, students or the schedule, yet they take all the blame formal of them.
    I agree that parents are a part of the problem and have said as much in other education threads here. The problem is that is a BS excuse. Every profession is rife with external factors that make the job difficult. I don't choose the sales people that sell our product but my job can be impacted by poor sales. Sales people don't choose the engineers but they can be fired because no one wants their **** products. My last company ended up cutting 40% because their research facility in Japan was wiped out by the tsunami and 2 drugs went off patent and their intended replacement didn't get passed by the FDA.

    We don't get to choose every aspect of our jobs, no one does. Why should teachers get immunity when they knew GOING IN that this was the environment that they chose to work in? Both my parents were teachers, I respect teachers. I work closely with my kids teachers to make sure my kids get the most of their education and I hold my kids and their teachers accountable when necessary. No one should get a pass.

    <Edit> I will also add that all schools have good and bad parents to deal with. Why should teachers in a failing school be allowed to use that as an excuse while the successful schools somehow found a way to overcome that issue?

  5. #25
    I'm interested to see how the deal Christie made with the Newark teachers unions works out. It appears to make sense.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trades View Post
    I agree that parents are a part of the problem and have said as much in other education threads here. The problem is that is a BS excuse. Every profession is rife with external factors that make the job difficult. I don't choose the sales people that sell our product but my job can be impacted by poor sales. Sales people don't choose the engineers but they can be fired because no one wants their **** products. My last company ended up cutting 40% because their research facility in Japan was wiped out by the tsunami and 2 drugs went off patent and their intended replacement didn't get passed by the FDA.

    We don't get to choose every aspect of our jobs, no one does. Why should teachers get immunity when they knew GOING IN that this was the environment that they chose to work in? Both my parents were teachers, I respect teachers. I work closely with my kids teachers to make sure my kids get the most of their education and I hold my kids and their teachers accountable when necessary. No one should get a pass.

    <Edit> I will also add that all schools have good and bad parents to deal with. Why should teachers in a failing school be allowed to use that as an excuse while the successful schools somehow found a way to overcome that issue?

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trades View Post
    Because how a person acts in the first 3 years of a job when they can be fired and are therefore on their best behavior is always indicative of the way they will act the remaining 37 years of their bulletproof career, right?
    I got the impression from your post, when you mentioned a good interview or resume and probationary period, that you were referring to someone who just wasn't cut out for teaching from the beginning. You're talking about someone who is intentionally scamming the system by working hard for three years (it's more than three years) then phoning it in because they can. I know teachers get burnt out, but I'm not so sure your scenario is too prevalent.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by stanner View Post
    I got the impression from your post, when you mentioned a good interview or resume and probationary period, that you were referring to someone who just wasn't cut out for teaching from the beginning. You're talking about someone who is intentionally scamming the system by working hard for three years (it's more than three years) then phoning it in because they can. I know teachers get burnt out, but I'm not so sure your scenario is too prevalent.
    The scenario would be relevant not prevalent. Do you think non-teachers don't get burnt out?

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Trades View Post
    The scenario would be relevant not prevalent. Do you think non-teachers don't get burnt out?
    There are pros and cons to teaching, but to attack the entire profession, which the right has done for the last few years, is going to accomplish what exactly? You think it's going to attract the best of the best?

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trades View Post
    The scenario would be relevant not prevalent. Do you think non-teachers don't get burnt out?
    Not trying to be argumentative, but it feels like you were proposing it as the prevailing scenario.

    Sure, I'm burnt out now with at least 20 years to go (I'm a union guy, too, so it's ok). As an adult, when it was time to pick a career, I imagine I was aware of the word "tenure," what it meant, and how it was most associated with teaching. Had that been important to me, I could have pursued that profession.

    People complain about my job; how good I have it. They coulda signed up when it was time.

    My wife and I know that, if we made it to a certain point in our careers, we'd be relatively safe. We also knew we'd never be rich. Choices.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by stanner View Post
    Shouldn't that all take place before a teacher gets tenured?
    No tenure at all, Do your job or get fired! I believe it should be written in the teachers contract if you strike you get fired. The taxpayers pay your salary, benefits and retirement. You work for US!

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by MnJetFan View Post
    No tenure at all, Do your job or get fired! I believe it should be written in the teachers contract if you strike you get fired. The taxpayers pay your salary, benefits and retirement. You work for US!
    Aren't you a mailman or something?

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by MnJetFan View Post
    No tenure at all, Do your job or get fired! I believe it should be written in the teachers contract if you strike you get fired. The taxpayers pay your salary, benefits and retirement. You work for US!
    That's refreshing and new. Thanks.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by stanner View Post
    Not trying to be argumentative, but it feels like you were proposing it as the prevailing scenario.

    Sure, I'm burnt out now with at least 20 years to go (I'm a union guy, too, so it's ok). As an adult, when it was time to pick a career, I imagine I was aware of the word "tenure," what it meant, and how it was most associated with teaching. Had that been important to me, I could have pursued that profession.

    People complain about my job; how good I have it. They coulda signed up when it was time.

    My wife and I know that, if we made it to a certain point in our careers, we'd be relatively safe. We also knew we'd never be rich. Choices.
    I think most teachers are trying to do their best. I think they care about the kids, enjoy teaching and want the kids to learn. I also think that just like any industry they would be best off if they could clean house of the bottom 10-20%. I also think that there are a lot of schools where the government, school and residents are failing the kids. We can't control who their parents are, those people pick their government, but the schools are the one factor that can change and if there is another school nearby that is working I think it is a good thing to allow the parents that are involved enough to put their names in for the lottery to have a chance to get their kids out of a hell hole and into a place they might learn.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Trades View Post
    I think most teachers are trying to do their best. I think they care about the kids, enjoy teaching and want the kids to learn. I also think that just like any industry they would be best off if they could clean house of the bottom 10-20%. I also think that there are a lot of schools where the government, school and residents are failing the kids. We can't control who their parents are, those people pick their government, but the schools are the one factor that can change and if there is another school nearby that is working I think it is a good thing to allow the parents that are involved enough to put their names in for the lottery to have a chance to get their kids out of a hell hole and into a place they might learn.
    Great points and I agree with you.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by cr726 View Post
    Great points and I agree with you.
    Also to comment on your Christie note he opened up School Choice to all NJ public schools a couple years ago and from my perspective it is a great success. I opens up competition between public schools allowing schools to offer empty seats to applicants. It isn't a voucher system so people can't complain about public money for private/catholic schools. Makes a lot of sense to me and I can't see a downside.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Trades View Post
    Also to comment on your Christie note he opened up School Choice to all NJ public schools a couple years ago and from my perspective it is a great success. I opens up competition between public schools allowing schools to offer empty seats to applicants. It isn't a voucher system so people can't complain about public money for private/catholic schools. Makes a lot of sense to me and I can't see a downside.
    This is what I am talking about.

    http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf...igning_of.html
    Last edited by cr726; 03-07-2013 at 11:04 AM.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by cr726 View Post
    Makes sense to me. No matter what side of the fence you are on you have to admit that in many districts, typically in the inner cities, the system is broken and more of the same will definitely not fix it. I applaud them for trying something new.

    How long until the resident teacher's union apologists chime in to tell us that the $100 Million from Zuckerberg is just so the school can indoctrinate the kids into using Facebook? Damn greedy businesses!!!!

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Trades View Post
    Makes sense to me. No matter what side of the fence you are on you have to admit that in many districts, typically in the inner cities, the system is broken and more of the same will definitely not fix it. I applaud them for trying something new.

    How long until the resident teacher's union apologists chime in to tell us that the $100 Million from Zuckerberg is just so the school can indoctrinate the kids into using Facebook? Damn greedy businesses!!!!
    LOL, I am sure that was said already.

    The President of the NEA endorsed this deal.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post
    So why bother teaching failing students at all? Seems like a complete waste of money.
    Because every child is offered an education in this country. Even kids who have crack addicted parents.

    Some students are awful and its not until years later that they succeed and give credit to the teachers who tried to help them along the way when they themselves didnt try at all............
    Last edited by copernicus; 03-07-2013 at 05:22 PM.

  20. #40
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    3 Questions from the Chicago HS entrance exam....

    Marvin steals Juan's skateboard. As Marvin skates away at 15 mph, Juan loads his .357 Magnum piece. If it takes Juan 20 seconds to load his piece, how far away will Marvin be when he gets whacked?

    Willie has 2 ounces of cocaine. If he sells an 8 ball to Antonio for $320 and 2 grams to Juan for $85 per gram, what be the street value of the rest of his $hit?

    Dwayne pimps 3 ho's. If the price is $85 per trick, how many tricks per day must each ho turn to support Dwayne's $800 per day Crack habit?

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