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Thread: Our Draft strategy

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by K-Ro 25 View Post

    Third, I had concrete evidence.
    LOL, what a child.

    So tell me Mr football player and builder of NFL franchises (after all, you did claim that if you took a guard you either never played football--which I did--and don't know how to build an NFL team--which I don't but neither do you), here's MY question.

    So you have 4 pass-rushers--not ONE of them is a sure thing--each one has an issue or issues that could be their downfall--too small, can't play in space, too much of a project, serious medical situation, can't seal the edge, etc.

    So odds are two of them will be Hall of Famers and two of them are going to be busts.

    You gamble on one of them and it's 50-50 you're going to get a bust. You're a new GM Idzik and your team has holes ALL over the field--two huge needs are a pass rusher and fixing an awful offensive line.

    What do you do--choose the pass rusher that YOU--some kid thinks is going to be the right one?

    Why, because you sit in a basement and watch "tape"?

    My OPINION is you take Warmack, stick him between two pro-bowl caliber lineman and you have the makings of a dominant line for the next 5-6 years.

    YOUR opinion is you gamble and chance that you get a stud OR a bust.

    We can't risk the bust. This franchise can't risk another Gholston. It can't even risk another Bryan Thomas (who was a very productive Jet for years but was never a difference maker).

    I get that pass rusher is more important than a guard--of course.

    But the cost-benefit between a possible bust and someone you can plug in from day 1 and will dominate is a reasonable cal.

    Of course, you know which dpr is going to be great and which one isn't, right?

    That's why your mocks are all over ESPN and CBSSportsline and WalterFootball and all the other draft sites.

    You realize none of the REAL expert pickers can agree on who's going to be the stud and who's going to be the bust out of the dpr's right?

    Yeah, so lets gamble and leave the sure thing on the board so we can lament the next Jet QB who gets killed and the next running back who can't convert on just about any 3rd or 4th and short.

    Brilliant.

    _

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
    The way I see it, there really are no passrushers in this class without a host of red flags.

    Ansah - Has only been playing ball for two years. Is he strictly a 4-3 end or can he make the transition to OLB in a 3-4 defense?

    Jordan - Well rounded, but the production isn't there and I question his ability to be a bigtime passrusher in the NFL.

    Mingo - Built like a stick and the production isn't there. I think it was Tinstar who said he's better suited for the weakside in a 4-3 and I tend to agree.

    Jones - Super productive in the best conference in college football, but then there's the spinal stenosis and questions about his longevity.

    Moore - Totally stunk it up at the combine and may be luck to be a Top 20 selection at this point.

    Basically, all of these guys are a bigtime gamble. So if I'm gambling on a passrusher, why not someone like Tank Carradine in the 2nd round?

    That's actually my ideal screnario. Warmack at #9 and Carradine at #39.
    Exactly. Hey, if we get any one of those guys, I'll support them to the max. Will do backflips hoping they become the next big QB killer.

    It's the red flags that make me worried and have me leaning towards Warmack in the first and a guy like Okafor in the second.


    Quote Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
    Also, if Warmack is out there annihilating everyone in front of him, opening up gaping holes in the running game and turns out to be an all-pro for the better part of a decade...will anyone really care where we drafted him at?
    +100000000.

    _

  3. #63

    Iv'e said it before

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinstar View Post
    I actually like Moore, but his athletism and natural strength at the combine at his size left alot to be desired. When the workout matches the tape, you invest in the prospect. When the workout doesn't match the tape, you devalue the player.

    In the case of Gholston, the workout was off the chart but the tape was inconsistant telling us that the player wasn't serious about football . In the case of Moore, the tape doesn't match the workout telling us that while the player is serious about football, he's not willing to go that extra mile.

    When you look at Ansah, the tape and the workout are a match. The kid doesn't know what he's doing, but he's doing it well. Folks made an issue of this kid spending his time studying instead of training for the combines, and he still blew it up. In certain cultures, education is more important than just about anything short of Religion.

    I have no idea what this kid has to do to prove what he is, but in my mind, he's done it. If he's there, the Jets will make a huge mistake passing on him. The NYJets doesn't run the same type of 34 the Steelers or the Pats do. They run the same defense the Ravens do. Ezekiel Ansah would be our version of T sizzle.
    What concerns me about ansah, is him growing out the chance to stand him up at OLB. At 270lbs, he is nearing the threshold of a player with his hands in the dirt, all the time.We lose the versatility

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by JStokes View Post
    Exactly. Hey, if we get any one of those guys, I'll support them to the max. Will do backflips hoping they become the next big QB killer.

    It's the red flags that make me worried and have me leaning towards Warmack in the first and a guy like Okafor in the second.




    +100000000.

    _

    Big fan of Okafor

    Not the greatest athlete, but plays hard and goes all out on every down.

    I just personally don't see why half the board thinks we MUST take a passrusher at #9. A guy like Carradine has as much (if not more) potential than any passrusher in this class. Would've been a Top 10 pick if it wasn't for the ACL tear, and there's a good chance he's still on the board at #39. If I'm gambling, that's the guy I'm taking a gamble on.

    Carradine, Okafor, Lemonier, etc.

    It's not like we can only find an OLB in the 1st round.

    I have way more faith in Warmack being a stud and making an impact from day 1 than I do with the Dion Jordan's and Barkevious Mingo's.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
    Big fan of Okafor

    Not the greatest athlete, but plays hard and goes all out on every down.

    I just personally don't see why half the board thinks we MUST take a passrusher at #9. A guy like Carradine has as much (if not more) potential than any passrusher in this class. Would've been a Top 10 pick if it wasn't for the ACL tear, and there's a good chance he's still on the board at #39. If I'm gambling, that's the guy I'm taking a gamble on.

    Carradine, Okafor, Lemonier, etc.

    It's not like we can only find an OLB in the 1st round.

    I have way more faith in Warmack being a stud and making an impact from day 1 than I do with the Dion Jordan's and Barkevious Mingo's.
    What is your plan if he's gone.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
    Big fan of Okafor

    Not the greatest athlete, but plays hard and goes all out on every down.

    I just personally don't see why half the board thinks we MUST take a passrusher at #9. A guy like Carradine has as much (if not more) potential than any passrusher in this class. Would've been a Top 10 pick if it wasn't for the ACL tear, and there's a good chance he's still on the board at #39. If I'm gambling, that's the guy I'm taking a gamble on.

    Carradine, Okafor, Lemonier, etc.

    It's not like we can only find an OLB in the 1st round.

    I have way more faith in Warmack being a stud and making an impact from day 1 than I do with the Dion Jordan's and Barkevious Mingo's.
    Drafting solely for need and not looking at BPA is always a foolish man's game. That's how you end up with the Mike Nugents of the world.

  7. #67

    Impact on a game

    Quote Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
    Big fan of Okafor

    Not the greatest athlete, but plays hard and goes all out on every down.

    I just personally don't see why half the board thinks we MUST take a passrusher at #9. A guy like Carradine has as much (if not more) potential than any passrusher in this class. Would've been a Top 10 pick if it wasn't for the ACL tear, and there's a good chance he's still on the board at #39. If I'm gambling, that's the guy I'm taking a gamble on.

    Carradine, Okafor, Lemonier, etc.

    It's not like we can only find an OLB in the 1st round.

    I have way more faith in Warmack being a stud and making an impact from day 1 than I do with the Dion Jordan's and Barkevious Mingo's.
    I understand your reasoning, but to me you want your top ten pick to be a game changer.A beast left guard won't make nearly the impact as a very good OLB.Outcomes of games, for the most part, wouldn't be different between a pro bowl left guard and a borderline pro bowl left guard

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post

    I just personally don't see why half the board thinks we MUST take a passrusher at #9.
    Because (i) you've never played football and (ii) you don't know how to build an NFL team.

    _

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinstar View Post

    When you look at Ansah, the tape and the workout are a match.

    Ezekiel Ansah would be our version of T sizzle.
    Well it looks like we just flat out don't see the same thing. To me, I see a raw, athletic guy who's best trait is simply potential. That's it. He doesn't flash. He doesn't overwhelm or command the offensive line's full attention. He simply looks like someone who after a small sample of playing time, could be a stout, all around productive player. Could being the significant word. In the ND game, i thought he was clearly over-matched, and lost at times.

    And if you think he's going to work as an OLB, i need to better explanation. In two years, he'll be 280-290 lbs, with stiff hips, and moderate burst. High motor, yes, but moderate burst at best. He's simple too big, and too stiff for that position.

    4-3 DE for life. And he'll be a good one.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Paradis View Post
    Well it looks like we just flat out don't see the same thing. To me, I see a raw, athletic guy who's best trait is simply potential. That's it. He doesn't flash. He doesn't overwhelm or command the offensive line's full attention. He simply looks like someone who after a small sample of playing time, could be a stout, all around productive player. Could being the significant word. In the ND game, i thought he was clearly over-matched, and lost at times.

    And if you think he's going to work as an OLB, i need to better explanation. In two years, he'll be 280-290 lbs, with stiff hips, and moderate burst. High motor, yes, but moderate burst at best. He's simple too big, and too stiff for that position.

    4-3 DE for life. And he'll be a good one.
    Ansah has no business attempting to play 3-4 OLB ever. He will be a project as a 4-3 DE and a ultimately a succesful one like JPP. Ditto for Okafor who is more polished with less upside but could probably contribute right away in the 4-3.

    I wouldn't mind the Jets drafting him IF they switched to a 4-3 but that's not happening. Jarvis Jones is the best 3-4 OLB prospect in this draft IF he can stay healthy.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenoT View Post
    I understand your reasoning, but to me you want your top ten pick to be a game changer.A beast left guard won't make nearly the impact as a very good OLB.Outcomes of games, for the most part, wouldn't be different between a pro bowl left guard and a borderline pro bowl left guard

    Okay--what happens if the OLB that you draft DOESN'T become a game changer?

    Every single one of those guys has an issue or issues and not one of them is a sure thing. None of the so-called "experts" can agree on who's going to be a stud and who's going to bust.

    If 2 years from now we have a massive and dominating OLine and our QB has a clean pocket and all the time in the world to throw and our running game is top 5, you'd complain?

    No one is debating that a pass-rushing demon isn't one of the most important positions on the field and clearly one of our biggest needs--has been since Johnny Abe left--but taking a guy who isn't a sure thing (as much as there can be one) just because of a need is silly.

    Not when a sure-fire stud is there that you can plug in from day 1 and not think about until 2020.

    It's not like we're talking fullback here guys.

    _

  12. #72
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    So we're all agreed, Ansah is the guy, right?

    I mean Jordan...err...Jones...no wait ...MINGO!!

    Yeah that's it--we're all good right?

    _

  13. #73

    This discussion is moot

    Quote Originally Posted by JStokes View Post
    Okay--what happens if the OLB that you draft DOESN'T become a game changer?

    Every single one of those guys has an issue or issues and not one of them is a sure thing. None of the so-called "experts" can agree on who's going to be a stud and who's going to bust.

    If 2 years from now we have a massive and dominating OLine and our QB has a clean pocket and all the time in the world to throw and our running game is top 5, you'd complain?

    No one is debating that a pass-rushing demon isn't one of the most important positions on the field and clearly one of our biggest needs--has been since Johnny Abe left--but taking a guy who isn't a sure thing (as much as there can be one) just because of a need is silly.

    Not when a sure-fire stud is there that you can plug in from day 1 and not think about until 2020.

    It's not like we're talking fullback here guys.

    _
    Well this friendly debate won't matter if we get a first for revis. We'll draft cooper with that pick.Its not like there won't be a quality guard left after warmack and Cooper.Khalid Jones is a guy who has a chance to be a real good pro. He's a 2nd or 3rd round guy.Im sure untouchable, you and plenty of others on this board can name others.The draft has always been the great debate. nobodys right, and nobodys wrong.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
    Mingo - Built like a stick and the production isn't there. I think it was Tinstar who said he's better suited for the weakside in a 4-3 and I tend to agree.
    Disagree.

    Mingo is undersized for what they had him do at LSU. Put him at OLB with his speed and explosiveness, and you have a beast of a pass rusher.

    Coples didn't have great production, and he turned out pretty well for us.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenoT View Post
    Well this friendly debate won't matter if we get a first for revis. We'll draft cooper with that pick.Its not like there won't be a quality guard left after warmack and Cooper.Khalid Jones is a guy who has a chance to be a real good pro. He's a 2nd or 3rd round guy.Im sure untouchable, you and plenty of others on this board can name others.The draft has always been the great debate. nobodys right, and nobodys wrong.
    Unless your team can't afford another bust.

  16. #76

    LOL

    Quote Originally Posted by Apache 51 View Post
    Unless your team can't afford another bust.
    I know. Iys difficult. I just have a hard time coming to terms with us drafting a guard in the top ten. Maybe we should trade down, or maybe,we draft Star and move exclusivly to a 4/3 defense.

  17. #77
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    I would like them to trade down.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinstar View Post
    What is your plan if he's gone.
    Then I start seriously looking at Jones (if he's still on the board), Cooper and even Eifert.

    I'm not taking a passrusher at #9 for the sole purpose of taking one.

    History tells us that at least half of these guys will be total busts. Odds are, only 1 or MAYBE 2 studs will emerge from this crop of tweeners.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by detjetsfan View Post
    Drafting solely for need and not looking at BPA is always a foolish man's game. That's how you end up with the Mike Nugents of the world.
    No, drafting for need is saying take a passrusher at #9 no matter what.

    I'm on the Warmack bandwagon because if he's still around at #9 (which I'm starting to doubt) then it's a perfect case of value matching an area of need.

    Mike Mayock, who I respect the hell out of, has repeatedly called Warmack the best player in the draft.

    I'm an old school guy. I'm a big believer in football games being won in the trenches. It was the foundation of our success in '09 and '10. Build up a big badass OL that can physically impose their will on teams late in games.

    And in a draft class pretty much devoid of any gamebreaking offensive playmakers, it makes even more sense to follow this philosophy.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by King P View Post
    Disagree.

    Mingo is undersized for what they had him do at LSU. Put him at OLB with his speed and explosiveness, and you have a beast of a pass rusher.

    Coples didn't have great production, and he turned out pretty well for us.
    I don't see the correlation between Coples and Mingo. Yeah, they had down years during their last season in college, but that's it.

    In September of 2011, pretty much everyone had Coples as only 2nd to Andrew Luck in that upcoming draft class.

    IMO, Coples was a far better prospect than Mingo coming out.

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