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Thread: SCOTUS and gay marriage

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by FF2 View Post
    Alot of good points being made here on both sides. Interesting stuff to be sure.

    (Except for the usual suspect.)

    Like all social issues throughout out country's history, once there is enough momentum, there's really no putting the genie back in the bottle.

    As I've said before...My kids think this shouldn't even be an issue, so soon it won't be.
    Exactly the law will change as societies values change. We have a system in place to do just that. The States licensing of marriage will be changed State by State as the values change. Gays in this country can marry in many States and they can get married in another State if the State they choose to live in doesn't provide it right now.

    There is virtual no barrier on Gay marriage in the US other than DOMA which directly impacts their Federal status and should be struck down immediately.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by OBENjet View Post
    "It might suck" is not justification enough to deny a whole group of people rights. There might've been race riots when we integrated public schools in this country. We did it anyway. Through the courts.
    Again Race descrimination unlike sexual orientation is directly protected in the US Constitution. The civil war a war of death and destruction was largely caused by a bad SC decision.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by intelligentjetsfan View Post
    I did not define them as a separate class of people; the people who are trying to prevent them from being legally married are.
    Exactly and they should continue to make it a civil rights issue and work to change attitudes and law. That doesn't give them extra protection Constitutionally. My marriage wasn't granted by the Federal government by some Constitutional right. Gay Marriages in states that allow it don't have the same rights as marriages between a man and a women at the Federal level because of the DOMA law. That is why DOMA should be struck down.

    There is nothing in the US Constitution that makes Gays a special class of people, there is a very specific Constitutional protection based on race that was actually fought for. You might recall there was a failed attempt to give women the same status as race through Constitutional amendment that failed. Women were forced to earn their rights through legislation and for the most part have just as gays are.
    Last edited by Winstonbiggs; 03-28-2013 at 08:00 AM.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post
    Exactly the law will change as societies values change. We have a system in place to do just that. The States licensing of marriage will be changed State by State as the values change. Gays in this country can marry in many States and they can get married in another State if the State they choose to live in doesn't provide it right now.

    There is virtual no barrier on Gay marriage in the US other than DOMA which directly impacts their Federal status and should be struck down immediately.
    Except some states (looking at you, southern states) have a piss poor record of enacting civil rights, which is exactly why this needs to be done through the courts. If we wait for Mississippi to come around it'll be another 100 years, guaranteed. For christ sake, they JUST ratified the 13th amendment ending slavery:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2712289.html

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by OBENjet View Post
    Except some states (looking at you, southern states) have a piss poor record of enacting civil rights, which is exactly why this needs to be done through the courts. If we wait for Mississippi to come around it'll be another 100 years, guaranteed. For christ sake, they JUST ratified the 13th amendment ending slavery:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2712289.html
    The Court was the prime reason we had a civil war. The cost of was pretty big. Gays having to drive across a State line or get on a plane for a couple of hundred bucks is a small trade off for the right to govern through a democratic process.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post
    Exactly and they should continue to make it a civil rights issue and work to change attitudes and law. That doesn't give them extra protection Constitutionally. My marriage wasn't granted by the Federal government by some Constitutional right. Gay Marriages in states that allow it don't have the same rights as marriages between a man and a women at the Federal level because of the DOMA law. That is why DOMA should be struck down.

    There is nothing in the US Constitution that makes Gays a special class of people, there is a very specific Constitutional protection based on race that was actually fought for. You might recall there was a failed attempt to give women the same status as race through Constitutional amendment that failed. Women were forced to earn their rights through legislation and for the most part have just as gays are.
    Rights are rights. No one, be it African American, women, etc. should have to "earn them"

    The Supreme Court has ruled, on multiple occasions, that marriage is a fundamental right. Gay people, who are legal citizens of this country, should have that right, and not need to earn it.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post
    The Court was the prime reason we had a civil war. The cost of was pretty big. Gays having to drive across a State line or get on a plane for a couple of hundred bucks is a small trade off for the right to govern through a democratic process.
    And sometimes governing through a democratic process leads to unfair laws. That's the reason we don't live in a pure democracy as everyone believes we do and that's why we have three branches of government. The courts are there for a reason.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by OBENjet View Post
    And sometimes governing through a democratic process leads to unfair laws. That's the reason we don't live in a pure democracy as everyone believes we do and that's why we have three branches of government. The courts are there for a reason.
    You still haven't given me any reason the Constitution permits the sanctity of Gay marriage. Make the Court argument, I don't see it.

    Gays can marry either the opposite sex or the same sex in the USA with some restrictions in some states regarding same sex. Where is the overwhelming descrimination that warrants this moving away from the democratic process?

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post
    You still haven't given me any reason the Constitution permits the sanctity of Gay marriage. Make the Court argument, I don't see it.
    The equal protection clause is silent to race, creed, sex, etc. I'm not going to quote it again here, but I have previously in this thread. It's pretty unambiguous that states may not make discriminatory laws. Couple that with scotus ruling that marriage is a fundamental right, and it's all right there.

    Yes, the constitution does not mention marriage specifically. Isn't this another reason we have the courts? To interpret the constitution?

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by OBENjet View Post
    The equal protection clause is silent to race, creed, sex, etc. I'm not going to quote it again here, but I have previously in this thread. It's pretty unambiguous that states may not make discriminatory laws. Couple that with scotus ruling that marriage is a fundamental right, and it's all right there.

    Yes, the constitution does not mention marriage specifically. Isn't this another reason we have the courts? To interpret the constitution?
    You cherry picked it and I responded to it the Court was very clear it was race based on the 14th amendment in that case. If you're trying to make a case that the Court in Loving extended that to gay marriage you would be full of crap.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post
    You cherry picked it and I responded to it the Court was very clear it was race based on the 14th amendment in that case. If you're trying to make a case that the Court in Loving extended that to gay marriage you would be full of crap.
    Holy crap, I know Loving didn't extend marriage equality to same sex couples, otherwise why are we here. My point is that on FOURTEEN occassions the court has ruled that marriage is a FUNDAMENTAL right. The EPC says all citizens are equal under the law (I know history, and I know that it was in response to racial inequality, however they didn't write "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of black men" they wrote "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States"

    Legal, tax paying, gay citizens of the United States are not being treated equally under the law in many states. That is a fact. Your "they can just get into a plane and get married" argument holds no weight, because they are still being treated as unequal in the states in which they reside.

    The democratic process when it comes to granting rights to a minority in this country does not work. Never has. You cannot put the rights of a minority group up to the will of the majority. This is why we have the courts and this is why marriage equality belongs in the courts.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by OBENjet View Post
    Holy crap, I know Loving didn't extend marriage equality to same sex couples, otherwise why are we here. My point is that on FOURTEEN occassions the court has ruled that marriage is a FUNDAMENTAL right. The EPC says all citizens are equal under the law (I know history, and I know that it was in response to racial inequality, however they didn't write "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of black men" they wrote "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States"

    Legal, tax paying, gay citizens of the United States are not being treated equally under the law in many states. That is a fact. Your "they can just get into a plane and get married" argument holds no weight, because they are still being treated as unequal in the states in which they reside.

    The democratic process when it comes to granting rights to a minority in this country does not work. Never has. You cannot put the rights of a minority group up to the will of the majority. This is why we have the courts and this is why marriage equality belongs in the courts.
    Legal tax paying Gays will be treated equally under the tax code when DOMA is removed. Any state that descriminates against couples legally married in other states is a reasonable Constitutional challenge as is DOMA. That is not a reason to make gay marriage legal by Constitutional decree.

    Gays like straight people want to have children have had children and raised them succesfully in traditional nuclear families since well before the begining of this country.

    Being pre-desposed to wanting to have sex with a partner of the same sex doesn't mean you aren't pre-desposed to having children and raising them in traditional nuclear families. Up until recently that meant having sex with partners of the opposite sex and up until recently raising nuclear families with partners of the opposite sex.

    The State has a vested interest in promoting nuclear families, the data is absolutely clear. Marriage doesn't descriminate based on some pre-desposed sexual oreintation. Gays are creating a new civil right that didn't exist until recently. It exists in large part because the Nuclear traditional family has desolved in this country. That has been a dissaster for this country that we are all paying for.

    This idea that where we are going is all good and doesn't impact anyone is absolute BS. That doesn't mean they shouldn't or should be able to get married as they please. It just means they have to earn it democratically.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post
    Legal tax paying Gays will be treated equally under the tax code when DOMA is removed. Any state that descriminates against couples legally married in other states is a reasonable Constitutional challenge as is DOMA. That is not a reason to make gay marriage legal by Constitutional decree.

    Gays like straight people want to have children have had children and raised them succesfully in traditional nuclear families since well before the begining of this country.

    Being pre-desposed to wanting to have sex with a partner of the same sex doesn't mean you aren't pre-desposed to having children and raising them in traditional nuclear families. Up until recently that meant having sex with partners of the opposite sex and up until recently raising nuclear families with partners of the opposite sex.

    The State has a vested interest in promoting nuclear families, the data is absolutely clear. Marriage doesn't descriminate based on some pre-desposed sexual oreintation. Gays are creating a new civil right that didn't exist until recently. It exists in large part because the Nuclear traditional family has desolved in this country. That has been a dissaster for this country that we are all paying for.

    This idea that where we are going is all good and doesn't impact anyone is absolute BS. That doesn't mean they shouldn't or should be able to get married as they please. It just means they have to earn it democratically.
    You do not "earn" rights in this country. When you're a legal U.S. citizen, if you have a right, you always have that right, whether it's legally recognized or not. 237 years of history in this country says that voting for rights democratically at the state level does not work. Has to be done at the federal level.

    There is tons of mounting evidence that children of same sex couples are just as well adjusted as children of "traditional" families. Your assertion that two men or women raising a child in anyway negatively impacts that child is false. Sh*tty parents will be sh*tty parents, no doubt. But there is no evidence to suggest that two loving parents of the same sex is a detriment to child development.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetman67 View Post
    Its a human rights issue and should be fought. How does gay marriage step on others rights? Come on, give a real argument.
    It's a civil rights issue, not a human rights issue. Most misused and overused term.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by OBENjet View Post
    Rights are rights. No one, be it African American, women, etc. should have to "earn them"

    The Supreme Court has ruled, on multiple occasions, that marriage is a fundamental right. Gay people, who are legal citizens of this country, should have that right, and not need to earn it.
    so then what's wrong with civil unions, if all else is equal? gays don't help themselves by demanding marriage.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by quantum View Post
    so then what's wrong with civil unions, if all else is equal? gays don't help themselves by demanding marriage.
    So separate but equal?

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by JetPotato View Post
    It's a civil rights issue, not a human rights issue. Most misused and overused term.
    ?

    Every human should have the right to marry whomever they want as long as the other person in question is consenting.

    Sounds like human rights to me.

    Regardless though, civil rights, human rights, it is definitely the right thing to equalize marriage, so there's that.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby2 View Post
    ?

    Every human should have the right to marry whomever they want as long as the other person in question is consenting.

    Sounds like human rights to me.

    Regardless though, civil rights, human rights, it is definitely the right thing to equalize marriage, so there's that.
    Definitely in your mind but obviously not everyone's.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by OBENjet View Post
    You do not "earn" rights in this country. When you're a legal U.S. citizen, if you have a right, you always have that right, whether it's legally recognized or not. 237 years of history in this country says that voting for rights democratically at the state level does not work. Has to be done at the federal level.

    There is tons of mounting evidence that children of same sex couples are just as well adjusted as children of "traditional" families. Your assertion that two men or women raising a child in anyway negatively impacts that child is false. Sh*tty parents will be sh*tty parents, no doubt. But there is no evidence to suggest that two loving parents of the same sex is a detriment to child development.
    Exactly marriage isn't a right, it's a contractual obligation that people enter into willingly and the States use to regulate relationships in the best interest of the State. It is not a right it is a contract.

    I haven't asserted anything like that you have jumped to a conclusion. The data isn't in and won't be for a long time. Your claiming something as true or false is simply your opinion at this point. I prefer we have some data and with some states being ahead of others we will get it. I would opine it's likely that children will do better with 2 gay parents then single parents, will they do as well as 2 parents of the opposite sex? Not sure and I don't need to speculate. As more data is collected and studied experts will no doubt have their opinions.

    The only thing we do know is that the reduction of nuclear families raising children has been a huge negative for those children and society. We are also seeing very conclusive data that single women raising men without a male father has been a complete disaster.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trades View Post
    Definitely in your mind but obviously not everyone's.
    True, but thankfully those who think oppositely are becoming less and less.

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