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Thread: The quickest way to fix our offense: Warmack and the best available tackle!!

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Mainejet View Post
    Give it up. There's no way they are going to get a better QB this season. Idzik is planning on going after a franchise QB next season when there's a much better chance of us hitting on real talent. That would be a waste of time and picks in this draft.
    Next season, when we have no idea where we will be drafting, who will be coming out in the draft, or how scouts will be rating them as prospects. This strategy is just stupid. There will be QBs in this draft class who become good players, it would be an extreme anomaly if that wasn't the case. If Smith is there at 9, you take him. Very high ceiling and the top rated passer in the draft. There is absolutely no way to know or ensure that we would be in any sort of position next offseason to take the top rated passer in that draft class.

    And the idea that there's no way we could find somebody better than Mark Sanchez to play QB for us next season is pretty laughable. He was outperformed by even the lesser of the rookie QBs last season. If he plays for us this season, rest assured he will be outplayed by some of the rookie QBs in this class. Idzik's job is to get the best players he can for us, especially at the most important position on the field. That should be paramount for him.
    Last edited by SlickBri481; 04-09-2013 at 03:06 PM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by dickkotite View Post
    THATS the problem. The so called "low skill" tag. Its BS! A stout Oline makes your quaterback MUCH better, your RB Much better
    I'm not arguing against a quality O-Line. I'm arguing against the idea that you need to draft a guard in the first round, unless that guard is such an exceptional talent that he compensates the relative value of the position. I can live with drafting Warmack or Cooper, but I can't live with using our first two rounds on the O-Line. That would be just stupid, given the cost in not addressing the most difficult skill positions that are currently holes in our roster. Take Warmack, but wait until the fourth - or better, fifth or sixth - at least to pick up another O-liner.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by ctjetfan View Post
    If you run it, you win. It makes your QB better and your D better.

    I know it was in the dark ages, but look at the Walt Michaels pre Freeman teams. Great OL with Fields, Powell, Ward, Randy R and Waldamore.

    Long, Gaines, Derking ran like all-pros and they won with Richard F*cking Todd at QB.
    Agree with you 100% CTJetfan. A good O-line can fix a lot of holes on a team (running, passing, keep defense off field).
    But no need to knock my boy Richard Todd.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Mainejet View Post
    You're missing the point here. I don't believe CT is saying we are a dominant OL from becoming a contender. But if we fix the OL, we'll at least be competitive THIS season. Everyone knows it is a process.

    We are not going to find a franchise QB in this years draft so you can forget about that, if that is what you are thinking. But we would be competitive while we are building the team for a run to the SB. Idzik is going to go after a franchise QB in next years draft and likely some of the other skill positions.

    Also, there's a good chance Warmack or some other top notch OL prospect could be there when we pick at #9. He would likely be the BAP at that point also. I firmly believe in taking the BAP, not reaching for need.

    If we do fix the OL, there's a good chance that our running game would be much better than in 2012. That combined with a QB that doesn't turn the ball over (That isn't Sanchez, but maybe Garrard?) and a good defense and you have a good chance of sneaking into the playoffs.
    MJ, first off, we're both in agreement about Idzik not believing there is a top notch QB to be had this season, and I think if Garrard is healthy he's the guy in the opener if the job is based on merit. Where we disagree is on this overall sentiment, which you said yourself in your first post:
    Quote Originally Posted by Mainejet View Post
    Add in a good defense and we have a recipe to win 10 games. We certainly wouldn't make any noise in the playoffs, merely one and done. But it would be a great foundation to continue building on.
    I'm sorry, but no upgrade on this OL can bring the rest of this O to anywhere near 10 wins. The rest of it, as we see it right now, which isn't much better than it was at this time last year, is simply horrid. I haven't seen a Jet offseason roster this devoid of skilled talent since 1996. I'm not saying this will be 1-15, but the names speak for themselves. There's not a skilled position player you have to gameplan specifically for. I understand there's the draft and maybe another move or 2 to come, but if you think the D, which honestly is nothing special against the better offenses in this league, coupled with an upgraded OL (which is not even a given with a rookie OL addition, or any position at all) can bring the rest of this team to 10 wins, then I guess we're not going to agree on this at any point this season. I think the more you realize how weak the offensive talent is on this team, and especially with a bad QB and an offensively inept HC, man, I hope you're buckled up for a bumpy ride.

    Look towards 2014!

  5. #65
    Let's just draft O-line this entire draft. It makes up for missing a QB, WR, RB and a TE. Just plug an O-lineman in at each position, and we're golden!!
    19-0 here we come!!!

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by long island leprechaun View Post
    I'm not arguing against a quality O-Line. I'm arguing against the idea that you need to draft a guard in the first round, unless that guard is such an exceptional talent that he compensates the relative value of the position. I can live with drafting Warmack or Cooper, but I can't live with using our first two rounds on the O-Line. That would be just stupid, given the cost in not addressing the most difficult skill positions that are currently holes in our roster. Take Warmack, but wait until the fourth - or better, fifth or sixth - at least to pick up another O-liner.
    Agreed. I am all for drafting Warmack or Cooper. BPA and a need. Why not? But to specifically target another OL in the 2nd round is overdoing it a little. We can use a safety/LB/DL/RB/WR/QB in the 2nd. No need to bypass the BPA that fits other needs to stock up on OLmen.

  7. #67
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    With all the nice OL in the first two rounds an OL might be BPA in the second round for us.

    I think the key to all of this is getting Tampa's 13th overall pick. Then we could certainly take another OL in the 2nd.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Down, Set, Haiku View Post
    MJ, first off, we're both in agreement about Idzik not believing there is a top notch QB to be had this season, and I think if Garrard is healthy he's the guy in the opener if the job is based on merit. Where we disagree is on this overall sentiment, which you said yourself in your first post:


    I'm sorry, but no upgrade on this OL can bring the rest of this O to anywhere near 10 wins. The rest of it, as we see it right now, which isn't much better than it was at this time last year, is simply horrid. I haven't seen a Jet offseason roster this devoid of skilled talent since 1996. I'm not saying this will be 1-15, but the names speak for themselves. There's not a skilled position player you have to gameplan specifically for. I understand there's the draft and maybe another move or 2 to come, but if you think the D, which honestly is nothing special against the better offenses in this league, coupled with an upgraded OL (which is not even a given with a rookie OL addition, or any position at all) can bring the rest of this team to 10 wins, then I guess we're not going to agree on this at any point this season. I think the more you realize how weak the offensive talent is on this team, and especially with a bad QB and an offensively inept HC, man, I hope you're buckled up for a bumpy ride.

    Look towards 2014!
    Nonsense. Teams go from worst to first all the time. If the Jets did it, it certainly wouldn't be the first time a team did it. Like I said, if the Jets were to fix the OL they could easily secure a wildcard spot. It's dependent on the team staying healthy, which is the same caveat for every team, every year. But fixing the OL and building the foundation from the inside out to me makes too much sense.

    I also firmly believe that the 2005 team was far more devoid of talent. Their defense was hot garbage. Their offense was anemic. This Jets team still has some major players to build around like Mangold, Brick, Harris, Revis, Wilkerson, and Coples. The 2005 team had no notable names like I just mentioned. Abe was not a big name as he was so often injured.

  9. #69
    So use our top 2 picks on offensive lineman, even though we have an up-and-coming RT at a very reasonable salary?

    Can anyone here tell me the Packers RG or RT when they won? How about any member of the Giants O-Line other then chris snee?

    Austin howard graded out as a very good run blocker, especially for his first year as a starter. Yes, we need a G but history has proven there is a lot of value in that position in the middle rounds. Yes we did have more success in 2009 with a "great" line but its not that simple (and for the record Im appalled we didn't sign slauson for $850K and instead paid cumberland 1.3 million)

    For those who think 2 top picks on the Oline is smart, just ask yourself if you ever saw sanchez change a protection at the line of scrimmage in his career.

    Did you ever see him move a RB when in the shotgun from one side to the other to pick up a free blitzed?

    Does he seem to know when to throw the ball away - or instead does he ROUTINELY stare down a WR while pump faking and eventually get sacked. Would you say he has a good internal clock?

    Peyton Manning cant run and never had a great Oline in Indy - but he recognized fronts, knew blocking assignments, felt pressure and got rid of the ball in time. Our QB is arguably the worst in the league at those things so please look behind the name austin howard and realize its not JUST about the line

  10. #70
    I'm probably a lot older than most of you. At 8, the first game I remember was supe lll, which made me a life long Jets fan. ( topic for another thread, LOL).

    I just don't think that the younger posters understand how much a great OL can improve your team. I'll go look for some examples and post them here.

    If anyone has any. please post ( other than the Walt Michaels JETS)..

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjetfan View Post
    I'm probably a lot older than most of you. At 8, the first game I remember was supe lll, which made me a life long Jets fan. ( topic for another thread, LOL).

    I just don't think that the younger posters understand how much a great OL can improve your team. I'll go look for some examples and post them here.

    If anyone has any. please post ( other than the Walt Michaels JETS)..
    Building a great OL is absolutely a great idea. But drafting an OG with a top 10 pick is unnecessary, and is a recipe for mediocrity.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by ctjetfan View Post
    I'm probably a lot older than most of you. At 8, the first game I remember was supe lll, which made me a life long Jets fan. ( topic for another thread, LOL).

    I just don't think that the younger posters understand how much a great OL can improve your team. I'll go look for some examples and post them here.

    If anyone has any. please post ( other than the Walt Michaels JETS)..
    How about the early 90's Cowboys? That was a great OL. Erik Williams, Nate Newton, etc. Those guys dominated the LOS and actually made Emmitt Smith the league's all time rushing leader, BETTER if you can believe that.

    They also paved the way for Cowboys to win 3 SB's, even though when they won the 3rd they had a nitwit coaching them.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Mainejet View Post
    How about the early 90's Cowboys? That was a great OL. Erik Williams, Nate Newton, etc. Those guys dominated the LOS and actually made Emmitt Smith the league's all time rushing leader, BETTER if you can believe that.

    They also paved the way for Cowboys to win 3 SB's, even though when they won the 3rd they had a nitwit coaching them.
    Very funny how you make no mention that the main sklled cogs on those Os were HOF talents, or that that group was led by an elite OC in his prime. To paraphrase a quote from Rick Pitino:

    "Troy aikman is not walking through that door, fans. Emmit Smith is not walking through that door, and Michael Irvin is not walking through that door. And if you expect them to walk through that door, they're going to be gray and old."

    Will a better line make the O better? Obvously. Can a better line turn the rest of the chicken-sh1t on O into chicken salad? Not on this team.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Mainejet View Post
    How about the early 90's Cowboys? That was a great OL. Erik Williams, Nate Newton, etc. Those guys dominated the LOS and actually made Emmitt Smith the league's all time rushing leader, BETTER if you can believe that.

    They also paved the way for Cowboys to win 3 SB's, even though when they won the 3rd they had a nitwit coaching them.
    The Broncos line of the post-Elway late 90's/early 2000's ( nalen, schlereth, jones) is another good example. It seemed like for years, no matter whom they plugged in at RB, he'd gain 1500. ( Davis, Orlandis Gary, Mike Andersen, Clinton Portis, Reuben Droughns)

    They were 10-6, 11-5 almost every year!!

  15. #75
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    You start building a team in the trenches. That was the philosophy we approached the 2008 free agency with. Signed Faneca and Woody along with Jenkins on the D-Line and dominated for a good 2-3 years.

    Now that we don't have the money to really do that, we have to look for answers in the draft. If Warmack is available I say you take him. We need to protect our quarterback and give him a chance to throw the damn ball, whomever that may be.

  16. #76
    Larry Allen - 2nd round pick
    Nate Newton - undrafted
    Eric Williams - 3rd round pick
    Tom Nalen - 7th round pick
    Mark Schlereth - 10th round pick.

    Now I'm not tossing out the old 'You can find great olineman anywhere.' line but justifying a top 10 pick on a guard by using the above players is a poor example.

    The last few years there have been guards touted as possible top 10 guys that on draft day fall.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
    Larry Allen - 2nd round pick
    Nate Newton - undrafted
    Eric Williams - 3rd round pick
    Tom Nalen - 7th round pick
    Mark Schlereth - 10th round pick.

    Now I'm not tossing out the old 'You can find great olineman anywhere.' line but justifying a top 10 pick on a guard by using the above players is a poor example.

    The last few years there have been guards touted as possible top 10 guys that on draft day fall.
    I follow the draft every year and rarely do i hear as much praise about guards as i have heard about Warmack and Cooper.

    It's like Running Backs and QBs, you can list a ton of 2-6th/UDFA Qbs that have become stars (Montana/Brady/Warner/Favre/Rodgers) or RBs but when an obvious stud like Apete/A Luck become available you don't pass on them because "you can always find a hidden gem in later rounds. For every Mark Schlereth found in late rounds there are hundreds of Slaussons/Ducasses and guys that get cut before ever touching the field.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by revischrist View Post
    I follow the draft every year and rarely do i hear as much praise about guards as i have heard about Warmack and Cooper.

    It's like Running Backs and QBs, you can list a ton of 2-6th/UDFA Qbs that have become stars (Montana/Brady/Warner/Favre/Rodgers) or RBs but when an obvious stud like Apete/A Luck become available you don't pass on them because "you can always find a hidden gem in later rounds. For every Mark Schlereth found in late rounds there are hundreds of Slaussons/Ducasses and guys that get cut before ever touching the field.
    I think both will be fine players but I also think their relative value is up there because the top of this draft is nothing to write home about. Most pass rushers have at least one ?. The Qb class is crappy.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
    I think both will be fine players but I also think their relative value is up there because the top of this draft is nothing to write home about. Most pass rushers have at least one ?. The Qb class is crappy.
    Exactly. If there was an equivalent talent at LB/DL/RB/WR/S available at the 9, i wouldn't even think about taking those 2 guards.

    Trading down is ideal in this draft, the problem is the other NFL teams know it also.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjetfan View Post
    The Broncos line of the post-Elway late 90's/early 2000's ( nalen, schlereth, jones) is another good example. It seemed like for years, no matter whom they plugged in at RB, he'd gain 1500. ( Davis, Orlandis Gary, Mike Andersen, Clinton Portis, Reuben Droughns)

    They were 10-6, 11-5 almost every year!!
    Are you guys being serious right now? Those OLs were not stacked with 1st rounders everywhere.

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