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Thread: School Choice

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by copernicus View Post
    You had your way for awhile, teacher bashing and screaming for new school reform for the last ten or so years with fraudulent reformist like Bush, Bloomberg, Obama, Gates, and Zuckerburg looking to get their greedy claws into America's children.
    YEAH! They tried to manipulate school kids to vote for their agendas, and write letters to politicians, and stand outside school board votes with sad faces!


    Oh wait - that's teacher tactics.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by chiefst2000 View Post
    Try NYC or Los Angeles or Washington or basically every where it has been tried. School Choice of which charters are a component is the best solution for our schools and children. It is the only thing proven to improve outcomes and therefore opportunity for upward mobility for the poor. The comedy for me here is when liberals, which portray themselves (falsely imo) as the defenders of the poor and underprivileged, fight viciously against one of the only programs which has proven to alter outcomes in a positive way for those groups. It really for me is a great reinforcement of my belief that liberals are full of ****e. Everyone that is against school choice is either a union cronie like Cop or a left wing kool aid drinker that refuses to think for themselves. CR, don't be that guy.

    With all due respect, I am highly conservative. I am staunchly anti union. I am pro education and am against school choice.
    We have a HS here in Charleston - Academic Magnet HS. It is rated as the #10 public HS in the U.S. It's segregation and flat out wrong.
    Every school can be viable. Just not for every student. This is what education has become because of lazy parents.
    I would like someone from either (both) side(s) to explain why the concept of levels or academies with a single school can not work. I experienced this. My children experienced this. It allows everyone to seek their own level but also allows students to progress to a higher level.
    The charter/magnet concept dooms minorities even further.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by palmetto defender View Post
    With all due respect, I am highly conservative. I am staunchly anti union. I am pro education and am against school choice.
    We have a HS here in Charleston - Academic Magnet HS. It is rated as the #10 public HS in the U.S. It's segregation and flat out wrong.
    Every school can be viable. Just not for every student. This is what education has become because of lazy parents.
    I would like someone from either (both) side(s) to explain why the concept of levels or academies with a single school can not work. I experienced this. My children experienced this. It allows everyone to seek their own level but also allows students to progress to a higher level.
    The charter/magnet concept dooms minorities even further.
    We usually agree on stuff so I'm chalking this one up to you not understanding the concept completely. School Choice/Charters etc are locally designed programs designed around the specific needs of particular communities. In NYC and inner cities for example the public schools are often warzones. As a realist many of those kids can not be salvaged. Drug dealers, gang bangers and lowlifes in general. They are the ones making the schools bad for the rest. My goal it to target those areas and target the kids that want to learn and have the desire to succeed in life. Give them a way out instead of trapping them in a warzone. Its evil really. Its one of the reasons that CR's "application is too long/difficult" article is so ridiculous. If a kid or their parent can't be bothered fill out a form they aren't the type of kid that will benefit from the charter school.


    ***Edit - I'm perfectly happy with the concept of academies within schools. That's more of a concept for suburban schools
    Last edited by chiefst2000; 05-01-2013 at 04:40 PM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by copernicus View Post

    Bye bye new school reforms, the public is on to you...........




    Quote Originally Posted by copernicus View Post
    you are like most Americans who listen to screaming politicians and news outlets they have in their pockets who want you to believe every teacher is awful and that only billionaires really are about children's education.
    So school reform is going away because of public opinion turning against it whilst most americans listen to "screaming politicians and news outlets" that are for it.

    How do you get yourself to believe this stuff? Does the union issue tapes to listen to while you sleep?

  5. #25
    I am not in a union. Philadelphia is a prime example of charter schools and the indictments have been steadily coming yearly.

    It's ok to be an over the top righty?


    Quote Originally Posted by chiefst2000 View Post
    Try NYC or Los Angeles or Washington or basically every where it has been tried. School Choice of which charters are a component is the best solution for our schools and children. It is the only thing proven to improve outcomes and therefore opportunity for upward mobility for the poor. The comedy for me here is when liberals, which portray themselves (falsely imo) as the defenders of the poor and underprivileged, fight viciously against one of the only programs which has proven to alter outcomes in a positive way for those groups. It really for me is a great reinforcement of my belief that liberals are full of ****e. Everyone that is against school choice is either a union cronie like Cop or a left wing kool aid drinker that refuses to think for themselves. CR, don't be that guy.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by cr726 View Post
    I am not in a union. Philadelphia is a prime example of charter schools and the indictments have been steadily coming yearly.

    It's ok to be an over the top righty?
    I am a moderate but nice try. I am pro choice (though I despise abortion), and not opposed to gay marriage. I despise the idea of morality legislation and am pro legalization of marjuana. School choice is not a right or left wing political point. It is common sense. The Democrats are against it because the unions are against it. Simple as that. There is no rational argument that can be made against school choice because it has succeeded almost everywhere it has been tried.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by chiefst2000 View Post
    I am a moderate but nice try. I am pro choice (though I despise abortion), and not opposed to gay marriage. I despise the idea of morality legislation and am pro legalization of marjuana. School choice is not a right or left wing political point. It is common sense. The Democrats are against it because the unions are against it. Simple as that. There is no rational argument that can be made against school choice because it has succeeded almost everywhere it has been tried.
    The below article is saying what I'm saying, it's too soon to tell.

    To evaluate the relative performance of public vs. alternative school models, you have to adjust the test scores for the differences in all those factors that determine success. That is especially true because of what researchers call "selection bias." Parents have to choose to send their children to a charter school, meaning that charters start with students who have high parental involvement. If the charter school is newer or safer or has more technology, the difference in performance is expected to be significant.

    Unfortunately, we don't adjust test scores for differences in factors such as intelligence, income, parental involvement, or school facilities. Instead, we use misleading, unadjusted test-score comparisons. That means some schools that test well might not be doing all they can, while those with failing scores might be making outstanding progress. We are largely clueless about what is happening.

    Charter, Renaissance, Cyber, and other alternative school models are great ideas and may turn out to be the greatest thing for education since sliced bread. Or, they could wind up being a total disaster.

    Unfortunately, we have no way of determining whether this massive educational experiment is succeeding. That is unfair to the new school models, the public schools, the taxpayers who fund all the educational approaches, and most important, our children.
    http://articles.philly.com/2013-04-0...charter-school

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by JetPotato View Post
    Same old, same old
    Exactly........

    Same old billionaires looking for more on the backs of the working class.

    This story is sooooo old and people are waking up to the $cam that new school reform is.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by chiefst2000 View Post
    We usually agree on stuff so I'm chalking this one up to you not understanding the concept completely. School Choice/Charters etc are locally designed programs designed around the specific needs of particular communities. In NYC and inner cities for example the public schools are often warzones. As a realist many of those kids can not be salvaged. Drug dealers, gang bangers and lowlifes in general. They are the ones making the schools bad for the rest. My goal it to target those areas and target the kids that want to learn and have the desire to succeed in life. Give them a way out instead of trapping them in a warzone. Its evil really. Its one of the reasons that CR's "application is too long/difficult" article is so ridiculous. If a kid or their parent can't be bothered fill out a form they aren't the type of kid that will benefit from the charter school.


    ***Edit - I'm perfectly happy with the concept of academies within schools. That's more of a concept for suburban schools

    We're not that far apart. Why can't academies within schools work in the cities as well. I admit I never lived in a "ghetto" style city.
    Take the smarter kids and put them in these classes in this wing or floor and other, lesser developed kids in other classeson another floor or wing.
    The traffic can not be just one way. Who would be comfortable with taking 50 promising black kids out of Paterson East Side and sending them to Mountain Lakes. And then send 50 of the worst Mountain Lakes kids to Paterson. Nah.
    Parents need to be involved in the process.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by palmetto defender View Post
    We're not that far apart. Why can't academies within schools work in the cities as well. I admit I never lived in a "ghetto" style city.
    Take the smarter kids and put them in these classes in this wing or floor and other, lesser developed kids in other classeson another floor or wing.
    The traffic can not be just one way. Who would be comfortable with taking 50 promising black kids out of Paterson East Side and sending them to Mountain Lakes. And then send 50 of the worst Mountain Lakes kids to Paterson. Nah.
    Parents need to be involved in the process.
    While that is quite a ride, why not? The only thing I don't think you could make a case that Patterson would be better suited for improving the education of the bad kids in Mountain Lakes since Mountain Lakes is a much better school system.

    School choice allows Mountain Lakes to invite kids to apply to their lottery if they choose to have one and that would benefit the kids that want to try something different.

    As for the best kids, Morris County NJ, has their Academy and Magnet programs for high school. Of the top of my head, Morris Hill manages Math and Science, Vo Tech does Veterinary, Morris Knolls does Theater. Funny that Dover doesn't have one. Oh, that is because it is the worst school in the county.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by cr726 View Post
    The below article is saying what I'm saying, it's too soon to tell.


    http://articles.philly.com/2013-04-0...charter-school
    I'm familiar with the argument being made in that article. The premise is completely incorrect. There are plenty of Charters that have no selection bias whatsoever. They are straight lottery systems. The writers of that article would say that just the act of filling out an application is in its essence a selection bias because a student or parent taking that step is probably more involved or cares more that one that doesn't take that step. The writer is reaching big time there however. When you have Charters with 90+ % graduation rates and you compare them with local public schools with sub 40% graduation its clear that there is a difference in the OUTCOMES for the children. If you want to say that its not proof that the Charter is a better school because of the "selection bias" I say who cares. The outcomes are better and maybe thats because the only kids in the charter were ones that cared enough to fill out an application. That's good enough for me and its good enough to at least help the kids that want help.

    Of course there is plenty of evidence that Charters do provide a much better quality of education at a cheaper price than public but that's irrelevant. The outcomes are better. They are one of the few programs that can actually break the cycle of poverty. Again the only people that would be against these types of programs are driven by a teachers union agenda. There is no rational argument to not help poor children get a quality education.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by palmetto defender View Post
    We're not that far apart. Why can't academies within schools work in the cities as well. I admit I never lived in a "ghetto" style city.
    Take the smarter kids and put them in these classes in this wing or floor and other, lesser developed kids in other classeson another floor or wing.
    The traffic can not be just one way. Who would be comfortable with taking 50 promising black kids out of Paterson East Side and sending them to Mountain Lakes. And then send 50 of the worst Mountain Lakes kids to Paterson. Nah.
    Parents need to be involved in the process.
    If you spent any time in Camden or Newark or Jersey City or the Bronx, you would understand why that concept doesn't work in the inner city. I love it in the burbs however plus there is no barrier to implimenting such a thing if it works. In the poorest inner city areas the schools are a warzone. The environment is not conducive to learning or applying oneself. The only way to help those kids is to get them in a building or classroom where the other kids are at least somewhat there to learn. It's like CR's article before. If the selection bias is simply kids or kids with parents that took the time to fill out an application form you already weeded out most of the bad apples.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Trades View Post
    While that is quite a ride, why not? The only thing I don't think you could make a case that Patterson would be better suited for improving the education of the bad kids in Mountain Lakes since Mountain Lakes is a much better school system.

    School choice allows Mountain Lakes to invite kids to apply to their lottery if they choose to have one and that would benefit the kids that want to try something different.

    As for the best kids, Morris County NJ, has their Academy and Magnet programs for high school. Of the top of my head, Morris Hill manages Math and Science, Vo Tech does Veterinary, Morris Knolls does Theater. Funny that Dover doesn't have one. Oh, that is because it is the worst school in the county.

    Here's another little glitch. LOL. A good friend of mine, recently retired, was an AD and head football coach in HS for many years. He was notorious for going into economically deprived areas and getting great football players (black) to come to his school. He was brought up on complaints a fair number of times for illegal recruiting. Since it was a Catholic school he was appently exempt. However, see this sort of thing as being abused the same way.
    BTW, familiar with all the schools in question. Why does MH have math/science. Do kids come from say Mendham or West Morris to go there?
    Those are better school districts.

  14. #34
    Government Spending on education in the United States is a $780+ billion dollar industry.

    http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/...ending_20.html

    Every penny of that comes from us, the taxpayers.

    We should always be exploring every possible route to get more and better services for our tax dollar, and at that level of spending, Education should at the very least enjoy the same level of regulation, oversight and scrutiny that equally huge Govt. programs like Healthcare and Defense, and equally huge private industries like Oil enjoy.

    We should always be looking to do better, regardless of how special interests who profit from the industry may feel about it. Competition, and experimentation, are the keys to a better educational future.
    Last edited by Churchill; 05-02-2013 at 01:31 PM.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by chiefst2000 View Post
    If you spent any time in Camden or Newark or Jersey City or the Bronx, you would understand why that concept doesn't work in the inner city. I love it in the burbs however plus there is no barrier to implimenting such a thing if it works. In the poorest inner city areas the schools are a warzone. The environment is not conducive to learning or applying oneself. The only way to help those kids is to get them in a building or classroom where the other kids are at least somewhat there to learn. It's like CR's article before. If the selection bias is simply kids or kids with parents that took the time to fill out an application form you already weeded out most of the bad apples.
    Cheifs,you are ok with punishing the kids because their parents suck? Charter schools are using parents as a filter for the selection of students, that means there are kids who are being rejected simply because of their family.
    Last edited by cr726; 05-02-2013 at 02:11 PM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by cr726 View Post
    Trades, you are ok with punishing the kids because their parents suck? Charter schools are using parents as a filter for the selection of students, that means there are kids who are being rejected simply because of their family.
    A motivated kid could fill out an application just as quickly as a parent could.

    Ask yourself this from the opposite perspective. Are you ok with harming impoverished children that are motivated to better themselves just because some other kid isn't or has uninvolved parents? If a kid and a parent both can't be bothered to apply for something you want to punish the ones that could.
    The idea is preposterous. I moved out of Brooklyn to avoid the HS I was zoned for. Trust me when I say this but a 13 year old is capable of filling out an application when they are motivated to get out of a war zone. Not to mention the fact that the OP shows that there is absolutely no evidence that the Public schools are any worse off when charter programs are set up. Essentially the outcomes are the same (still crappy). So we are discussing two possibilities, status quo where poor kids are forced (by liberals) to attend failing schools in the name of fairness or choice programs where those kids that are actually motivated get a chance.
    Last edited by chiefst2000; 05-02-2013 at 01:59 PM.

  17. #37
    Charter schools are not only for 13 year olds and above, correct? You moved at 13 all by yourself? You had zero help and broke the law to reside by your lonesome, I doubt it, right?

    You keep harping about Liberals being the only people who could possibly be against this, yet Palmetto isn't on board with you.

    Only time will tell what will work and what won't but our country has been doing pretty damn good with a public school and private school system.

    You can want change, but you keep attacking teachers as they are the enemy of your utopian charter schools.
    Charter schools are getting pretty good teachers right now because of the bad economy, there are teachers willing to go and teach there because of the lack of openings within the public school system (well except for inner cities), but once the economy picks up and public schools start hiring again, the teachers within the charter school systems will flock to the better paying public school jobs.



    Quote Originally Posted by chiefst2000 View Post
    A motivated kid could fill out an application just as quickly as a parent could.

    Ask yourself this from the opposite perspective. Are you ok with harming impoverished children that are motivated to better themselves just because some other kid isn't or has uninvolved parents? If a kid and a parent both can't be bothered to apply for something you want to punish the ones that could.
    The idea is preposterous. I moved out of Brooklyn to avoid the HS I was zoned for. Trust me when I say this but a 13 year old is capable of filling out an application when they are motivated to get out of a war zone. Not to mention the fact that the OP shows that there is absolutely no evidence that the Public schools are any worse off when charter programs are set up. Essentially the outcomes are the same (still crappy). So we are discussing two possibilities, status quo where poor kids are forced (by liberals) to attend failing schools in the name of fairness or choice programs where those kids that are actually motivated get a chance.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by palmetto defender View Post
    Here's another little glitch. LOL. A good friend of mine, recently retired, was an AD and head football coach in HS for many years. He was notorious for going into economically deprived areas and getting great football players (black) to come to his school. He was brought up on complaints a fair number of times for illegal recruiting. Since it was a Catholic school he was appently exempt. However, see this sort of thing as being abused the same way.
    BTW, familiar with all the schools in question. Why does MH have math/science. Do kids come from say Mendham or West Morris to go there?
    Those are better school districts.
    Yes any child in Morris county can apply for and magnet or academy. They do have to (gasp!) pass a test and an interview and have a school record that shows they can do the work.

    As for why Hills was chosen as the Math and Science school I have no idea. Based on the NJMonthly High School rankings Morris Hills is #42, West Morris Central is #56 and West Morris Mendham is #45.


    (http://njmonthly.com/articles/towns_...habetical.html)

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by cr726 View Post
    Charter schools are not only for 13 year olds and above, correct? You moved at 13 all by yourself? You had zero help and broke the law to reside by your lonesome, I doubt it, right?

    You keep harping about Liberals being the only people who could possibly be against this, yet Palmetto isn't on board with you.

    Only time will tell what will work and what won't but our country has been doing pretty damn good with a public school and private school system.

    You can want change, but you keep attacking teachers as they are the enemy of your utopian charter schools.
    Charter schools are getting pretty good teachers right now because of the bad economy, there are teachers willing to go and teach there because of the lack of openings within the public school system (well except for inner cities), but once the economy picks up and public schools start hiring again, the teachers within the charter school systems will flock to the better paying public school jobs.
    I use 13 year olds as the example because High School is where the main problems come in to play. Thats the age for drugs and violence and gang banging. Of course I'm in favor of choice for all aged children but to me HS is the most important.

    At 13 I was able to convince my mother rent an apartment in Long Island 3 miles up the road from where I was living in Queens at the time. I was zoned for a crap school in Queens and was literally scared to go there.

    I have never attacked teachers here in this forum or anywhere else. That is something you just invented in your head. I think teachers are great, my problem is with public sector unions milking the middle class in this country but that has nothing to do with school choice.

    We have a problem in this country. There is a lack of upward mobility in the lower echelons of our society. The great equalizer is education. So how do we create a system where those that have the desire and potential can achieve upward mobility? School choice is the only area that is proven to work and positively effect outcomes. We already have great State University programs with free in state tuition and plenty of scholarships for the needy. Thats something I very much support. So the next step is getting kids in the most vulnerable neighborhoods in to those schools with the skill sets required to complete their degrees. Nothing else has ever worked.

  20. #40


    One of our biggest issues with Education is the rising cost of College, and the fiscal burdens these costs place on their students, and the barrier to entry it creates to those who wish to be students.

    A 4 year college education now costs upwards of $110-160,000. This is a massive cost.

    As the chart above indicates, the cost of college has risen far more than other costs. One question we should be asking is why?

    What has cost of education, both pre-college and college, gone up so much more than other costs? What are the factors driving these cost increases? How can these costs be minimized, to allow a broader range of students to attend college, and not face a future starting off with a massive fiscal debt?

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