With all due respect, I am highly conservative. I am staunchly anti union. I am pro education and am against school choice.
We have a HS here in Charleston - Academic Magnet HS. It is rated as the #10 public HS in the U.S. It's segregation and flat out wrong.
Every school can be viable. Just not for every student. This is what education has become because of lazy parents.
I would like someone from either (both) side(s) to explain why the concept of levels or academies with a single school can not work. I experienced this. My children experienced this. It allows everyone to seek their own level but also allows students to progress to a higher level.
The charter/magnet concept dooms minorities even further.
***Edit - I'm perfectly happy with the concept of academies within schools. That's more of a concept for suburban schools
Last edited by chiefst2000; 05-01-2013 at 03:40 PM.
How do you get yourself to believe this stuff? Does the union issue tapes to listen to while you sleep?
http://articles.philly.com/2013-04-0...charter-schoolTo evaluate the relative performance of public vs. alternative school models, you have to adjust the test scores for the differences in all those factors that determine success. That is especially true because of what researchers call "selection bias." Parents have to choose to send their children to a charter school, meaning that charters start with students who have high parental involvement. If the charter school is newer or safer or has more technology, the difference in performance is expected to be significant.
Unfortunately, we don't adjust test scores for differences in factors such as intelligence, income, parental involvement, or school facilities. Instead, we use misleading, unadjusted test-score comparisons. That means some schools that test well might not be doing all they can, while those with failing scores might be making outstanding progress. We are largely clueless about what is happening.
Charter, Renaissance, Cyber, and other alternative school models are great ideas and may turn out to be the greatest thing for education since sliced bread. Or, they could wind up being a total disaster.
Unfortunately, we have no way of determining whether this massive educational experiment is succeeding. That is unfair to the new school models, the public schools, the taxpayers who fund all the educational approaches, and most important, our children.
We're not that far apart. Why can't academies within schools work in the cities as well. I admit I never lived in a "ghetto" style city.
Take the smarter kids and put them in these classes in this wing or floor and other, lesser developed kids in other classeson another floor or wing.
The traffic can not be just one way. Who would be comfortable with taking 50 promising black kids out of Paterson East Side and sending them to Mountain Lakes. And then send 50 of the worst Mountain Lakes kids to Paterson. Nah.
Parents need to be involved in the process.
School choice allows Mountain Lakes to invite kids to apply to their lottery if they choose to have one and that would benefit the kids that want to try something different.
As for the best kids, Morris County NJ, has their Academy and Magnet programs for high school. Of the top of my head, Morris Hill manages Math and Science, Vo Tech does Veterinary, Morris Knolls does Theater. Funny that Dover doesn't have one. Oh, that is because it is the worst school in the county.
Of course there is plenty of evidence that Charters do provide a much better quality of education at a cheaper price than public but that's irrelevant. The outcomes are better. They are one of the few programs that can actually break the cycle of poverty. Again the only people that would be against these types of programs are driven by a teachers union agenda. There is no rational argument to not help poor children get a quality education.
Here's another little glitch. LOL. A good friend of mine, recently retired, was an AD and head football coach in HS for many years. He was notorious for going into economically deprived areas and getting great football players (black) to come to his school. He was brought up on complaints a fair number of times for illegal recruiting. Since it was a Catholic school he was appently exempt. However, see this sort of thing as being abused the same way.
BTW, familiar with all the schools in question. Why does MH have math/science. Do kids come from say Mendham or West Morris to go there?
Those are better school districts.
Government Spending on education in the United States is a $780+ billion dollar industry.
Every penny of that comes from us, the taxpayers.
We should always be exploring every possible route to get more and better services for our tax dollar, and at that level of spending, Education should at the very least enjoy the same level of regulation, oversight and scrutiny that equally huge Govt. programs like Healthcare and Defense, and equally huge private industries like Oil enjoy.
We should always be looking to do better, regardless of how special interests who profit from the industry may feel about it. Competition, and experimentation, are the keys to a better educational future.
Last edited by Churchill; 05-02-2013 at 12:31 PM.
Last edited by cr726; 05-02-2013 at 01:11 PM.
Ask yourself this from the opposite perspective. Are you ok with harming impoverished children that are motivated to better themselves just because some other kid isn't or has uninvolved parents? If a kid and a parent both can't be bothered to apply for something you want to punish the ones that could.
The idea is preposterous. I moved out of Brooklyn to avoid the HS I was zoned for. Trust me when I say this but a 13 year old is capable of filling out an application when they are motivated to get out of a war zone. Not to mention the fact that the OP shows that there is absolutely no evidence that the Public schools are any worse off when charter programs are set up. Essentially the outcomes are the same (still crappy). So we are discussing two possibilities, status quo where poor kids are forced (by liberals) to attend failing schools in the name of fairness or choice programs where those kids that are actually motivated get a chance.
Last edited by chiefst2000; 05-02-2013 at 12:59 PM.
Charter schools are not only for 13 year olds and above, correct? You moved at 13 all by yourself? You had zero help and broke the law to reside by your lonesome, I doubt it, right?
You keep harping about Liberals being the only people who could possibly be against this, yet Palmetto isn't on board with you.
Only time will tell what will work and what won't but our country has been doing pretty damn good with a public school and private school system.
You can want change, but you keep attacking teachers as they are the enemy of your utopian charter schools.
Charter schools are getting pretty good teachers right now because of the bad economy, there are teachers willing to go and teach there because of the lack of openings within the public school system (well except for inner cities), but once the economy picks up and public schools start hiring again, the teachers within the charter school systems will flock to the better paying public school jobs.
As for why Hills was chosen as the Math and Science school I have no idea. Based on the NJMonthly High School rankings Morris Hills is #42, West Morris Central is #56 and West Morris Mendham is #45.
At 13 I was able to convince my mother rent an apartment in Long Island 3 miles up the road from where I was living in Queens at the time. I was zoned for a crap school in Queens and was literally scared to go there.
I have never attacked teachers here in this forum or anywhere else. That is something you just invented in your head. I think teachers are great, my problem is with public sector unions milking the middle class in this country but that has nothing to do with school choice.
We have a problem in this country. There is a lack of upward mobility in the lower echelons of our society. The great equalizer is education. So how do we create a system where those that have the desire and potential can achieve upward mobility? School choice is the only area that is proven to work and positively effect outcomes. We already have great State University programs with free in state tuition and plenty of scholarships for the needy. Thats something I very much support. So the next step is getting kids in the most vulnerable neighborhoods in to those schools with the skill sets required to complete their degrees. Nothing else has ever worked.
One of our biggest issues with Education is the rising cost of College, and the fiscal burdens these costs place on their students, and the barrier to entry it creates to those who wish to be students.
A 4 year college education now costs upwards of $110-160,000. This is a massive cost.
As the chart above indicates, the cost of college has risen far more than other costs. One question we should be asking is why?
What has cost of education, both pre-college and college, gone up so much more than other costs? What are the factors driving these cost increases? How can these costs be minimized, to allow a broader range of students to attend college, and not face a future starting off with a massive fiscal debt?