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Thread: "No Jets QB Can Succeed, Because the Jets Offense Has No Talent"

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Arctor View Post
    The thread title is something we've all heard this offseason, often multiple times. Mike & Mike on ESPN both reiterated it (in different words) yet again this morning, in their post-Tebow Musings.

    The question I'd like to ask......is this really true for 2013?

    Does the 2013 Jets Offense REALLY have "no talent" around whomever wins the QB competition?

    Let me lay out one possible (likely I'd say) Jets starting Offense.



    When I look at this group, I don't see "no talent". I see alot of unknowns, but I don't see "no talent".

    Is this a bonifide Super Bowl quality unit? No, of course not.

    But can this unit, exempting the QB position, compete in the NFL and be competative vs. other teams Offenseive personel? Yes, I think it can.

    I, for one, am getting tired of having the "other 10 guys" derided and abused as talentless suckbags, when the truth is, it all starts and ends with play at the QB position.
    No it's stupid. The same people that said we couldn't win in 2010 said we would definitely win in 2011. We had a horrible OC, and went from bad to cartoonishly laughable last year. I don't think anyone knows what we have until Marty gets on the field and builds an offense for them. I do think people will be shocked, and should be embarrassed by what they see. I'm afraid Sanchez had his character revealed by the adversity, but the rest of the offense should be much improved by a real OC. Even if he's not great, which I think he is, but even the worst Sarry SOJFs can argue that he's not at least average.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by SAR I View Post
    We picked up a couple of third stringers from other teams. The jury is still out on these new acquisitions which on paper appear to be no better than Shonn Greene right now.

    As far as the rookies, sorry, I've been listening since 2009 for some great new rookie player to emerge and lead us to victory and so far none has. Every April, everyone raves about the Jets draft and how these players are going to show up and have immediate impact and none of them ever do. And, ironically, the one player who actually fits that bill is now being run out of town.

    SAR I
    How exactly do you figure this?

    Shonn Green's career YPC is 4.2 and was one of the least elusive RBs in the NFL
    https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...lusive-rating/

    Ivory has a career YPC of 5.1 and one was of the most elusive RBs in the NFL. Also, it's not the Saints are some amazing running team.. Mark Ingram's YPC is 3.9
    https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...ing-back-gold/

    Mike Goodson was also on the top end of the elusive rating, but his sample size was too small. (4.5 career YPC)

    The fact is, these guys just happened to be burried on really deep RB rosters, and did nothing but produce when they saw the field.

    So it appears on paper they are a HUGE upgrade. Shonn Greene can't break tackles, make people miss or catch passes. Other than that we're going to miss him.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by sg3 View Post
    seriously


    pay no attention to what the Mike and Mikes and the rest of the media buffoons say about anything. Do as I did, turn off sports talk radio and leave it off

    QB was the major problem the last two seasons with the 52 turnover suck machine at that position. David Garrard will finally be a competent and efficient player occupying that position and he will make the other 10 players on offense better. Greg McElroy will be an adequate backup and Geno Smith a more than adequate developmental QB who should be ready to step in in 2014 or 2015 when he is ready having been mentored by Garrard

    we get it, you dont like sanchez. there is absolutely no upside to what you're saying.

    Garrard last played in 2010. havent played because of a bad back so we should level set our expectations a bit. also in 2010 he had:
    23 TDs
    15 INTs
    11 fumbles

    GMC - NFL mind but peewee arm

    Smith - to be seen

    ok lets go with your premise, we play Garrard for the season and we let smith develop/compete. we might win a few more games with garrard but we still wouldnt even get a wildcard. back to square one

    we let sanchez play, let smith develop/compete. if sanchez sucks it up again, guess what we still back in square one as the same with Garrard but if (and i realize its a huge "IF") if WCO does pan out better for sanchez, then we would have 2x NFL QBs on our roster

  4. #24
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    Things won't change until Sunday Night after Week 1 on ESPN when the lead story is...

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  5. #25
    This message is hidden because SAR I is on your ignore list.
    Bliss.

    Suffice it to say, we're talking about the 2013 Offense, not the 2012 Offense, and specificly about the talent around the QB this coming year, not the QB himself.

    If we were talking about the QB, specificly Sanchez, we'd have to discuss his 50+ turnovers, his multiple turnovers for points that made the difference in games, his bottom of the NFL accuracy, his frequent fumbles, his lack of mobillity in the pocket, his lack of pocket presence and vision, his drive killing incompletions and turnovers, his utter lack of confidence or leadership and his penchant for giving our D a short field to defend in the most inopportune times......there is more, but we all (well, most of us) get the point.

    With that said, there is certainly some truth that the talent around him in 2012 was insufficiant, especially once Holmes went down for the season.

    But that excuse wears thin after a while. The Offense in 2013 is not "talentless", it is of average talent and below-average depth. What it will produce will largely be in the hands of theri overall health, and the play of the the single most important player on the field, the QB.

    Whomever that may be this year.

  6. #26
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    Sure to get bashed for this, but the SOJ is at a high level for me since the draft...

    Forget the loss of Revis, i dont even factor THAT as he was injured last year.

    Last year was horrible....i mean REALLY bad. Both sides of the ball bad in most games.
    There have been a few FA signings, which i happen to think were smart, and a draft of 7 rookie players.

    How can anybody logically expect a big turnaround. At best, its a complete unknown how the additions will pan out.

    Bad team hoping to be saved by a few FA signings and 7 rookies sounds like a dangerous plan to me.

  7. #27
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    Are we some sort of offensive juggernaut?

    No, of course not.

    But to say we have no talent is absurd.

    A rotation of Ivory/Goodson has the potential to be lethal and is an upgrade over Greene/Powell any way you want to slice it. We made it a big priority this offseason to solidify the backfield in addition to the OL and I feel that we have definitely succeeded in this area. We brought in two veteran interior OL (Colon/Peterman) and drafted two OL with versatility and immediate starting potential.

    At receiever, I don't think we're nearly as bad as most are making it seem, assuming that Holmes comes back healthy. Stephen Hill has all the talent in the world. If the kid can just learn how to catch the ball with his hands instead of his damn chest, then the sky is the limit with him. 6'4 215 WR's with 4.3 speed who can also block in the running game don't exactly grow on trees. Kerley is quickly becoming one of the better slot receivers in the league and is about as dependable as it gets. Jordan White is also a kid who looked very promising before getting hurt last year. I also like two of the undrafted kids we just signed, Spadola and Rogers. I think one of them sticks as the 5th wideout on the roster.


    We aren't exactly bursting at the seems with talent at TE, but Cumberland is a decent receiving option and Bohanon can also be lined up at TE in addition to FB. I wouldn't be surprised if we add another guy after cuts are made either. In fact, I fully expect it.


    This offense definitely has talent, it's just a matter of said talent materializing.


    I actually think Geno can be relatively successful as a rookie as long as Mornhinweg keeps things simple to start off.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by SAR I View Post
    This.

    Anyone who thinks that the offense that came out of Cortland last August was NFL-ready needs to have his head examined. No quarterback could've succeeded with that low level of talent around him, Mark Sanchez included.

    Let me remind everyone that nobody was worried about Mark Sanchez opening day 2011. We were all in Aso mode, making reservations for the Super Bowl, quarterback was the least of our concern. Things went completely downhill when our running game stalled, when Wayne Hunter got toasted, and when the old wide receivers faded late. None of those issues were addressed in the 2012 off-season, and they continue to go unaddressed in the 2013 off-season.

    We ruined Mark Sanchez and we will ruin Geno Smith too if we don't figure out a way to run the ball, protect the quarterback, and have some reliable receiving targets. I appreciate everyone's optimism and I realize that that is what April is supposed to be about, but this team is an offensive disaster and there's no reason to believe otherwise right now.

    SAR I
    While I agree there's no reason to think our offensive talent is going to set the world on fire, I do think we've at least addressed the running game as well as you can in one offseason. Maybe it doesnt work but I think odds are we'll have more success in that area than we did with Greene. So that should help whoever ends up starting at QB somewhat.

    The huge issue is WR/TE. Even if we bring back Edwards, why do people feel good about the Holmes/Edwards combo when they're both gigantic question marks at this point? The best thing anyone can say about TE is that maybe one of our guys is a huge sleeper, which is not really a place you want to be.

    We spent this offseason addressing other needs, which is fine by me as we had a ton of them, but there's no doubt we will be limited by our lack of skill players this season. Combine that with a brutal schedule and even though I liked our offseason there's no reason to think we're going to be breaking .500, though anything is possible

    What irks me with the "no qb can succeed with our talent" narrative is how its being used as a crutch for Mark Sanchez. He had a 75.3 QB rating in 2010. How anyone ever felt good about his regular season play even when we HAD talent is beyond me, because he was the definition of mediocre. The good vibes came from his clutch performances, like the Houston comeback, or stepping up huge in the playoffs. We were in super bowl mode because we thought we were good enough to win with an okay quarterback, not because we thought we had a great one.

    What happened next makes it all a moot point, as the talent did collapse and his play did spiral downwards. Maybe had we done better at procuring talent on offense, Sanchez could've developed into something legit. But I think the likelier possibility would be he was always going to be okay at best, with occasional flashes of brilliance. And while nobody was going to be a 5000 yard threat with our offensive talent, there are lots of QBs who could've avoided leading the league in turnovers over two seasons and having a 66 QB rating. The offensive talent did him no favors but don't pretend he didn't have a huge hand in his downfall.

    Ah well. Lets hope for the best with Smith. Be thankful that at least the guys responsible for Sanchez's development are gone...whether our new guys are an improvement is yet to be seen but they can't really be worse, can they?

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by JmercJETS View Post
    While I agree there's no reason to think our offensive talent is going to set the world on fire, I do think we've at least addressed the running game as well as you can in one offseason. Maybe it doesnt work but I think odds are we'll have more success in that area than we did with Greene. So that should help whoever ends up starting at QB somewhat.

    The huge issue is WR/TE. Even if we bring back Edwards, why do people feel good about the Holmes/Edwards combo when they're both gigantic question marks at this point? The best thing anyone can say about TE is that maybe one of our guys is a huge sleeper, which is not really a place you want to be.

    We spent this offseason addressing other needs, which is fine by me as we had a ton of them, but there's no doubt we will be limited by our lack of skill players this season. Combine that with a brutal schedule and even though I liked our offseason there's no reason to think we're going to be breaking .500, though anything is possible

    What irks me with the "no qb can succeed with our talent" narrative is how its being used as a crutch for Mark Sanchez. He had a 75.3 QB rating in 2010. How anyone ever felt good about his regular season play even when we HAD talent is beyond me, because he was the definition of mediocre. The good vibes came from his clutch performances, like the Houston comeback, or stepping up huge in the playoffs. We were in super bowl mode because we thought we were good enough to win with an okay quarterback, not because we thought we had a great one.

    What happened next makes it all a moot point, as the talent did collapse and his play did spiral downwards. Maybe had we done better at procuring talent on offense, Sanchez could've developed into something legit. But I think the likelier possibility would be he was always going to be okay at best, with occasional flashes of brilliance. And while nobody was going to be a 5000 yard threat with our offensive talent, there are lots of QBs who could've avoided leading the league in turnovers over two seasons and having a 66 QB rating. The offensive talent did him no favors but don't pretend he didn't have a huge hand in his downfall.

    Ah well. Lets hope for the best with Smith. Be thankful that at least the guys responsible for Sanchez's development are gone...whether our new guys are an improvement is yet to be seen but they can't really be worse, can they?
    Yes. This.

    Geno, i think you are a great kid. Please be The One. This year or next, just please be HIM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by how dare you View Post
    How exactly do you figure this?

    Shonn Green's career YPC is 4.2 and was one of the least elusive RBs in the NFL
    https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...lusive-rating/

    Ivory has a career YPC of 5.1 and one was of the most elusive RBs in the NFL. Also, it's not the Saints are some amazing running team.. Mark Ingram's YPC is 3.9
    https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...ing-back-gold/

    Mike Goodson was also on the top end of the elusive rating, but his sample size was too small. (4.5 career YPC)

    The fact is, these guys just happened to be burried on really deep RB rosters, and did nothing but produce when they saw the field.

    So it appears on paper they are a HUGE upgrade. Shonn Greene can't break tackles, make people miss or catch passes. Other than that we're going to miss him.
    That makes me feel better. Thank you for the clarification.

    However, even the best running backs get demolished on a one-dimensional team. Curtis Martin couldn't do a thing on the way to the Hall of Fame when Chad Pennington was injured and everyone knew the running game was all we had. So until we upgrade QB, wide receiver, and tight end we still face a challenge to run the ball effectively IMO.

    SAR I

  11. #31
    I think the Chris Ivory pickup was a good one but don't get too enamored with the 5.1 yards per carry.

    The Saints throw and throw and throw some more so it's not like many teams are playing the run against them. He's a good back but I would temper expectations until he proves he can carry the load in a run first or at least balanced attack like I expect the Jets will have this year. That's just my 2 cents on the issue. Otherwise, it was a good pickup.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAR I View Post
    That makes me feel better. Thank you for the clarification.

    However, even the best running backs get demolished on a one-dimensional team. Curtis Martin couldn't do a thing on the way to the Hall of Fame when Chad Pennington was injured and everyone knew the running game was all we had. So until we upgrade QB, wide receiver, and tight end we still face a challenge to run the ball effectively IMO.

    SAR I
    Sarri but all of Ivory's carries were in a one dimensional offense. He was closing out games against 8 in the box. He ran over 80% of the plays he was in.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by NY's stepchild View Post
    Sarri but all of Ivory's carries were in a one dimensional offense. He was closing out games against 8 in the box. He ran over 80% of the plays he was in.
    Where are you getting that?

    His carries are pretty distributed over the course of the game.


    (about half way down the page is the breakdown by quarter)

    http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits...87/chris-ivory


    (you can go back to his other two years as well )

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by SAR I View Post
    Mark Sanchez was not drafted thinking that he was going to be the next Peyton Manning, Ben Rothlisberger, or Aaron Rodgers. Mark Sanchez had none of those tools coming out of college, and was taken because we were desperate for a quarterback after Brett Favre left town and no FA's were available.

    Mark Sanchez was brought on board to be a safe piece of an offense built on a dominant running game. Along with a ferocious defense, that's all that was necessary out of the quarterback position. In mid 2011 things changed. Our tight end got hurt, our running back got old, and our wide receivers crumbled. The once dominant defense couldn't stop all cold. Mark Sanchez was asked to throw 40 to 50 times a game to a set of receivers that weren't capable of playing at that level. The wheels fell off the bus, the quarterback looked the worst of the group, easy scapegoat for a much bigger issue.

    The Rex Ryan Jets were built to win on a ground attack and a dominant defense. Those two strategies fell apart these past two years but all anyone wants to talk about is the quarterback who was never supposed to be the guy to carry the team. If he was, we never would've left Cortland last August with such a pathetic offense. Mark Sanchez sucks but he is not our problem. We were never supposed to win it in the air. Blame the ground attack and blame the defense.

    SAR I
    1980 called. It wanted to let you know that you can't win in today's league in spite of your QB.

    The bright side is that the floor for QB skill needed to win a Super Bowl dropped this year as Joe Flacco is not that good.

    Provided you have skill players like Torrey Smith, Bolden, Pitta, and, especially Rice and Pearce supporting your average to slightly above average QB.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by SAR I View Post


    The Jets are 1-11 against winning teams since the end of the 2010 season.

    Well the offense clearly has its issues, the defense plays horrifically against the better teams in the league. We are always down by 10 to 14 points at halftime, we are always giving up huge plays against what was thought to be a very talented secondary, and running backs and scatback's eat us alive.

    This theory that a better quarterback would have won us an extra two or three games makes sense. The problem is, those extra games would've been against the scrub teams not the elite teams because our defense was never good enough to shut them down.

    The problems here run way deeper than quarterback. I know you are conditioned to believe that a quarterback change can solve all of our problems because that is what has happened here since 1996. It isn't the case anymore.

    SAR I
    Valid points, SAR, but consider these as well.
    1) Houston game have ball at end of game with chance to win......INT
    2) 1st Patriots game..... sack +fumble in OT, on 2nd down
    3)2nd Pats game.....no need to go on here
    4) Tennessee game...4 int's, plus fumbled snap on last play.
    Sanchez was brought in here to manage games. For the last two years he loses them. Yes, he isn't the only problem, but he is the biggest one on offense.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAR I View Post

    The problems here run way deeper than quarterback. I know you are conditioned to believe that a quarterback change can solve all of our problems because that is what has happened here since 1996. It isn't the case anymore.

    SAR I
    That's actually not the case. As the OP stated, the WR corp is not a top NFL WR corp, but if they are healthy, they can be passable. If the Jets had competent+ QB play this year, they can contend for a Wild Card.

    Not sure who gives them the best shot to do that, but its not out of the realm of possibility. If they can weather the first part of their schedule, its not a killer one down the stretch.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by SAR I View Post
    Mark Sanchez was not drafted thinking that he was going to be the next Peyton Manning, Ben Rothlisberger, or Aaron Rodgers. Mark Sanchez had none of those tools coming out of college, and was taken because we were desperate for a quarterback after Brett Favre left town and no FA's were available.

    Mark Sanchez was brought on board to be a safe piece of an offense built on a dominant running game.

    all false. You don't trade up in round 1 to take what you think is the project you describe above as the overall #5 pick. A top 5 pick! One that cost more than a 5th when you factor in the trade up.

    At that spot you select a QB that you are confident has all the tools. They thought Sanchez did. If not, then they should all be shot for trading up and then drafting a project. Good GMs do NOT draft QB Projects in round 1, let alone trade up to slot 5 to get one.

    Your post is flat out wrong. That's NOT what they were thinking a t all when they got Sanchez.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Arctor View Post
    The thread title is something we've all heard this offseason, often multiple times. Mike & Mike on ESPN both reiterated it (in different words) yet again this morning, in their post-Tebow Musings.

    The question I'd like to ask......is this really true for 2013?

    Does the 2013 Jets Offense REALLY have "no talent" around whomever wins the QB competition?

    Let me lay out one possible (likely I'd say) Jets starting Offense.



    When I look at this group, I don't see "no talent". I see alot of unknowns, but I don't see "no talent".

    Is this a bonifide Super Bowl quality unit? No, of course not.

    But can this unit, exempting the QB position, compete in the NFL and be competative vs. other teams Offenseive personel? Yes, I think it can.

    I, for one, am getting tired of having the "other 10 guys" derided and abused as talentless suckbags, when the truth is, it all starts and ends with play at the QB position.
    please explain back to back afc championship games and a win in NE on the road oh and the afc championship game against big ben mark outplayed him by far. mark was our best player that day he has talent not sure how much but he can play in this league

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dcat View Post
    all false. You don't trade up in round 1 to take what you think is the project you describe above as the overall #5 pick. A top 5 pick! One that cost more than a 5th when you factor in the trade up.

    At that spot you select a QB that you are confident has all the tools. They thought Sanchez did. If not, then they should all be shot for trading up and then drafting a project. Good GMs do NOT draft QB Projects in round 1, let alone trade up to slot 5 to get one.

    Your post is flat out wrong. That's NOT what they were thinking a t all when they got Sanchez.
    +1 We could have had Freeman staying were we were..

  20. #40
    Our issue last year as the season went on became our entire offensive unit. We lost our best receiver who was actually poised to have a big year. Along with that, Keller battled injuries and a raw Stephen Hill battled a knee injury. Then we had wide receivers out there who struggled to get off press/man coverage regularly. Many times when Sanchez was dropping back, the pressure was coming and his receivers had not separated yet. This is PART of what lead to so many turnovers and bad decisions on the part of Mark. Obviously, Sanchez has his own problems but the Jets certainly didn't help. Hard to play under pressure with 3rd string receivers and a RB who doesn't catch well out of the backfield. It's obvious Sanchez doesn't have the talent to succeed when he doesn't have strong talent around him, and many QBs are that way. Compare Matt Ryan's/Joe Flacco's offensive playmakers last year to the Jets (no I'm not comparing these QBs to Sanchez by any means). If anyone needs WR/TE/RB like these QBs had, it's Sanchez.

    Worst of all, Sparano had to be the worst offensive play caller I've ever seen. I swear we ran a nice Sluggo with Schillens once and I never saw it again. I remember a play-action to McKnight where he went out and was hit in stride for a 20-30 pass down the sideline. However, these creative plays only seemed to happen once a game.

    I'm telling you right now that our offense will be better simply with the addition of Marty over Sparano, much better RBs, an actual QB competition, and a rebuilt offensive line with more depth and competition. You have to imagine the Jets are looking to sign a WR or a TE considering we've seen reports about their interest in players like Heyward-Bay and Fred Davis. It was also reported they would be interested in Finley if the Packers didn't resign him. Seems like they have their eyes on several guys but there definitely seems to be a backup plan in there with Braylon. Give us Braylon and a veteran TE and our offensive unit can compete with anyone.

    On paper right now, sure the Jets are lacking a little bit. There are still months of free agency left and plenty of time to grab some players of need. Plus, we have the cap space available right now. I can't imagine we are going in with the current crop unless there were some really big improvements from last year.

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