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Thread: Bloomberg eviscerates the NY Times over "stop & frisk"

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by palmetto defender View Post
    Now I'm "Typical"? Sorry about the cupcake major comment. LOL

    I am very concerned about the rights of decent people these days. I am a serious supporter of police. One or two bad ones get weeded out. Excesses should not be tolerated. Basics? I am ok with a bum getting frisked. Or a person looking suspicious or unsteady.


    I meant the position you typically take on the constitution

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by palmetto defender View Post
    Here's my quandary: I have been actually stopped by a police officer way back when on my way to a corporate HQ through a bad area. Three piece suit etc, he thought I might be a Caucasian drug lord. LOL. No pat down after I showed a business card.
    If a guy LOOKS like a problem (police are pretty good here) and they don't like the initial answer, why can't they go a step further? seems like probable cause to me. And good police work. Preemptive action?
    It's not quite probable cause (any more than saying "no" when an officer asks if he can search your car = probable cause to search without a warrant). But a suspicious response plus suspicious behavior, like 32 said, is enough to justify a frisk.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brooklyn Jet View Post
    I think you missed his point, by a wide margin.


    If a point is not written clearly , that can happen.
    "Someday you will lose everything", seems to be an absolute statement to which I responded. If the writer had another thought it should have been stated simply. Good communication is always simply expressed using simple words.
    Perhaps the writer can now restate (or you can) explaining PRECISELY the intent.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by 32green View Post
    Cops in NYS can go further, if, they can articulate it through the lense of 140.50 of the CPL. Often, a few pointed questions can throw a bad guy off balance and raise the level of suspicion to the point where the cop may want to frisk or pat down the guy for his own safety. A good cop knows how to do this, and articulate it later on.

    To be clear though, and doggin can attest to this, anything a cop comes up with on these searches of evidentiary value is usually subject to a hearing known as a Mapp hearing, wherein these encounters /seizures are scrutinized closely and the cop has to show he didnt just randomly walk up to someone for no reason at all; He has to articulate from his point of view, and with legal basis, just how it was he came upon the contraband.

    If not, the evidense is tossed (even loaded guns) and the guy walks.

    You know the system works (i.e., these stops are scrutinized and rights are protected) when you are in a courtroom where everyone, EVERYONE...the Judge, the cops, the DA, the Defense Atty, the Court officers, the Clerk, the stenographer...the PERP....and the gallery...all know the guy had a loaded gun...and he walks out a free man anyway because the legal basis for the initial stop...or search was never properly established.

    It happens every day.

    The system is not perfect by far, but someone else here tell me another way of saving the lives of young minorities and possibly preventing countless others from witnessing senseless, horrific violence (that will scar them forever) on the very streets where they walk to school every day.

    -
    This is a good explanation and summary. Thanks.
    I would think that a police officer would not be wasting his time on people who did not constitute a potential problem. He would have better things to do plus he would not need the hassle of a complaint.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by 32green View Post
    Cops in NYS can go further, if, they can articulate it through the lense of 140.50 of the CPL. Often, a few pointed questions can throw a bad guy off balance and raise the level of suspicion to the point where the cop may want to frisk or pat down the guy for his own safety. A good cop knows how to do this, and articulate it later on.

    To be clear though, and doggin can attest to this, anything a cop comes up with on these searches of evidentiary value is usually subject to a hearing known as a Mapp hearing, wherein these encounters /seizures are scrutinized closely and the cop has to show he didnt just randomly walk up to someone for no reason at all; He has to articulate from his point of view, and with legal basis, just how it was he came upon the contraband.

    If not, the evidense is tossed (even loaded guns) and the guy walks.

    You know the system works (i.e., these stops are scrutinized and rights are protected) when you are in a courtroom where everyone, EVERYONE...the Judge, the cops, the DA, the Defense Atty, the Court officers, the Clerk, the stenographer...the PERP....and the gallery...all know the guy had a loaded gun...and he walks out a free man anyway because the legal basis for the initial stop...or search was never properly established.

    It happens every day.

    The system is not perfect by far, but someone else here tell me another way of saving the lives of young minorities and possibly preventing countless others from witnessing senseless, horrific violence (that will scar them forever) on the very streets where they walk to school every day.

    -

    CR- now this guy sounds like a cop who knows what's what....

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker134 View Post
    CR- now this guy sounds like a cop who knows what's what....
    I haven't been a street level guy since 1998, I have been lucky enough to be able to do mostly long term investigations in the federal system.

    Now GFY......

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by cr726 View Post
    I haven't been a street level guy since 1998, I have been lucky enough to be able to do mostly long term investigations in the federal system.

    Now GFY......
    Lolz!!!! Have a good wknd...

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by 32green View Post
    So revealing.

    Venture to speculate that if it was cultivated white kids littering the streets, instead of 3-4th generation minority welfare kids.... your cavalier dismissal of NYS CPL 140.50 (which authorizes SQ&F...not Bloomberg) would instead be a blood curdling scream for more cops/enforcement etc.

    Typical...pseudo-racist......lib......blather.


    I rest my case.


    -
    Nice straw man argument Warfish! Err I mean 32.
    Actually I am not sure where to stand on this argument. The 4th amendment is very important but so is the state’s role in protecting its citizens.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetworks View Post

    No, you'll have bigger problems. Odd that you missed that portion of the anecdote.
    The bigger problems would be searches based on ethnicity, religion, what a 'suspect' reads or says or whom they associate with.

    I am not saying this occurs but to me it is scary and worrisome but so would dozens of people emulating the Beltway Sniper and the police having no means to confront suspects.


    This is a tough issue. Folks who are ardently on one side or the other make me wonder.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster View Post
    The bigger problems would be searches based on ethnicity, religion, what a 'suspect' reads or says or whom they associate with.

    I am not saying this occurs but to me it is scary and worrisome but so would dozens of people emulating the Beltway Sniper and the police having no means to confront suspects.


    This is a tough issue. Folks who are ardently on one side or the other make me wonder.
    Those aren't bigger problems, that's efficient policing. Why the hell are you going to bother looking at a bunch of bald, 5'10" black guys when you're looking for a brunette, 5'3 7/8" white guy? I'll never understand why people get all knee-jerky about that kind of thing.

    Anyway, what you are describing is profiling, which when used correctly and appropriately, is an effective weapon for preventing or fighting crime, just like stop and frisk. Where the real problem lies is when it's abused or misinterpreted, just like in anything else. Kind of like drinking alcohol isn't a problem, it's the excess or doing it in an irresponsible manner that is (like drunk driving).

    I have a problem with anyone who is ardently (fanatically?) on one side or another of anything, tbqh. I don't think this subject falls into that camp for me as I consider it a normative interpretation of the law.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetworks View Post
    Those aren't bigger problems, that's efficient policing. Why the hell are you going to bother looking at a bunch of bald, 5'10" black guys when you're looking for a brunette, 5'3 7/8" white guy? I'll never understand why people get all knee-jerky about that kind of thing.

    Anyway, what you are describing is profiling, which when used correctly and appropriately, is an effective weapon for preventing or fighting crime, just like stop and frisk. Where the real problem lies is when it's abused or misinterpreted, just like in anything else. Kind of like drinking alcohol isn't a problem, it's the excess or doing it in an irresponsible manner that is (like drunk driving).

    I have a problem with anyone who is ardently (fanatically?) on one side or another of anything, tbqh. I don't think this subject falls into that camp for me as I consider it a normative interpretation of the law.
    Then by your definition the NKVD was an effective police unit using reasonable methods.

    IMHO stopping and frisking every "Irish" looking guy because one "Irish" looking guy is a violent maniac is no good.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster View Post
    Then by your definition the NKVD was an effective police unit using reasonable methods.

    IMHO stopping and frisking every "Irish" looking guy because one "Irish" looking guy is a violent maniac is no good.
    If what you got from my post is that the Russian secret police were the same thing I described, then I guess we're at an intellectual impasse.

    Additionally, if you feel effective policing techniques include looking at suspects that do not fit the description of perpetrators, then presumably you are a fan of the TSA and putting people at risk in the name of preserving sensibilities. Do I have that right?

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