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Thread: What NFL QBs had a subpar first 3 to 4 years and then succeeded?

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by SAR I View Post
    At Patriots.

    You mean the game where Mark Sanchez drove us down the field to get the lead with a minute left only to watch the defense blow it twice and lose it in OT?

    Do you even watch the games? Give it a try sometime, really helps give you perspective.

    Not a single WR or TE that Mark had at his disposal after the Holmes injury belonged on an NFL roster last year. It's a miracle Mark got 6 wins.

    SAR I
    You mean the game where Mark Sanchez was his usual fumbling and turnover prone self?

    Where his fumble handed the Pats a Safety?

    Where his INT took away a likely cake FG at the Pats 36 yard line?

    Where his overtime fumble on 2nd down near midfield cost us the game?

    Where he was, as usual a 3+ turnover QB?

    Where even at his best, he's was barely adequate?

    Mark Sanchez is a bad QB, and his game tape, and stats, prove it far more than anything I can post could.

    "Watch the games"? Anyone who does that knows Mark Sanchez is a massive weakness, and one of the worst QB's in the NFL the last 4 years, including both the 2009 and 2010 regular seasons.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Arctor View Post
    You mean the game where Mark Sanchez was his usual fumbling and turnover prone self?

    Where his fumble handed the Pats a Safety?

    Where his INT took away a likelt FG at the Pats 36 yard line?

    Where his overime fumble cost us the game?

    Where he was, as usual a 3+ turnover QB?

    Where even at his best, he's was barely adequate?

    Mark Sanchez is a bad QB, and his game tape, and stats, prove it far more than anything I can post could.

    "Watch the games"? Anyone who does that knows Mark Sanchez is a massive weakness, and one of the worst QB's in the NFL the last 4 years, including both the 2009 and 2010 regular seasons.
    Mark Sanchez took a bunch of Arena League WR's and a RB that couldn't run and turned a 23-13 4th quarter deficit in the toughest place to play in the AFC into a 26-23 lead with 1:42 on the clock by leading two FG drives and a TD drive in under 4 minutes of elapsed time.

    And the defense blew it. What happened in OT is inconsequential because Mark Sanchez put us in a position to win the game. Your buddy Rex Ryan and his brutal defense lost that game.

    Mark Sanchez sure is a pretty scapegoat, though. "Game tape" LOL. Yeah, watch the defense and the running game, let me know what you see.

    SAR I

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenWave View Post
    I think you might have missed my point with that. I was pointing out that in 4 full seasons, Sanchez has ONE performance where you can argue that he was the best player on the field. Rogers was the best player on the field in 3 out of the 4 playoff wins in that same postseason. I'll even throw in Week 2 against NE in 2010, but that's 2 games in four seasons. Unacceptable.

    I don't hate Sanchez. I root for the laundry. If the guy turns it around I'll be floored, but he'll also be the QB I'm pulling for each and every Sunday.

    I just don't see what there is to defend about him when you look at his career as a whole. He rode along with a talented team and then shriveled up when he was asked to elevate the play of his teammates (like any good QB). That's not the guy I want under center if I have a choice.
    My bad ...

    Your point is fair and well taken...

  4. #124
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    Most of us were fairly happy with MS for his 1st two and one quarter seasons. Granted?

    Then Mangold went down and MS got clobbered badly for 3 games in a row. Add to that Hunter's play, D'Brick's uncharacteristically bad year, and Holmes's influence and most here at least were willing to understand Mark's poor showing. Granted?

    Sparano was an absolute disaster in 2012. No one was on the same page all year. We had the wildcat. We had Shonn Greene. WR's w/o Holmes were a joke. MS played like crap and most of his passes looked like Hail Marys but in all fairness it's hard to TOTALLY blame him.

    MS melted down in 2012 for sure. Up until then he was al least credible. Granted?

    I'm with Sar I in that he might very well win the QB start and if he does he should have our full support

    addendum to Sar I: You have to know what you don't know. Rex knows he doesn't know offense so he leaves it to his OC. Shotty and Sparano both were Tanny picks. Now Marty M. is Rex pick. Please stop bashing Rex till we see how his man works out.
    Last edited by LIJetsFan; 05-04-2013 at 09:00 AM.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by SAR I View Post
    Mark Sanchez took a bunch of Arena League WR's and a RB that couldn't run and turned a 23-13 4th quarter deficit in the toughest place to play in the AFC into a 26-23 lead with 1:42 on the clock by leading two FG drives and a TD drive in under 4 minutes of elapsed time.

    And the defense blew it. What happened in OT is inconsequential because Mark Sanchez put us in a position to win the game. Your buddy Rex Ryan and his brutal defense lost that game.

    Mark Sanchez sure is a pretty scapegoat, though. "Game tape" LOL. Yeah, watch the defense and the running game, let me know what you see.

    SAR I
    SAR, I have to hand it to you. You are really dedicated to your delusion. Good for you.

    Just to put this in perspective... Mark Sanchez was ranked 36th best QB in a league with 32 teams.

    One of the stats is QB PAR.

    QB PAR: Number of points contributed by a quarterback over the season, accounting for QBR and how much he plays, above the level of a quarterback who plays very rarely and is on the fringe of the NFL


    Marks rating was -3.8. The only QB with a negative QB PAR. He is rated worse, as in below, a qb "who plays rarely and is on the fringe of the NFL".

    THAT is a guy I want leading my team. NOT.

    But your schtick works. Here I am feeding the troll. But at least you are committed to your delusion.
    Last edited by GandWFan; 05-04-2013 at 10:02 AM.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by LIJetsFan View Post
    Most of us were fairly happy with MS for his 1st two and one quarter seasons. Granted?

    Then Mangold went down and MS got clobbered badly for 3 games in a row. Add to that Hunter's play, D'Brick's uncharacteristically bad year, and Holmes's influence and most here at least were willing to understand Mark's poor showing. Granted?

    Sparano was an absolute disaster in 2012. No one was on the same page all year. We had the wildcat. We had Shonn Greene. WR's w/o Holmes were a joke. MS played like crap and most of his passes looked like Hail Marys but in all fairness it's hard to TOTALLY blame him.

    MS melted down in 2012 for sure. Up until then he was al least credible. Granted?

    I'm with Sar I in that he might very well win the QB start and if he does he should have our full support

    addendum to Sar I: You have to know what you don't know. Rex knows he doesn't know offense so he leaves it to his OC. Shotty and Sparano both were Tanny picks. Now Marty M. is Rex pick. Please stop bashing Rex till we see how his man works out.
    I agree with everything you say up until this point. We should only wish Rex left the offense to his OC's. He meddled when Sanchez was scrambling, he meddled when he felt Shotty was being too pass happy. Make no mistakes the offense while neglected by the FO personel wise was driven by Rex's vision - G&P . He admitted in this offseason saying he was too G&P oriented and wants to see an attacking O this year. Will he let MM run the show - only time will tell.

    Sanchez has played poorly at times and 2012 was a complete clusterF. But he's taken much more of the blame for this offensive attrocity and amazingly a lot of it stems from an inconsequential play in an otherwise blowout loss.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by GandWFan View Post
    SAR, I have to hand it to you. You are really dedicated to your delusion. Good for you.

    Just to put this in perspective... Mark Sanchez was ranked 36th best QB in a league with 32 teams.

    One of the stats is PAA.

    QB PAR: Number of points contributed by a quarterback over the season, accounting for QBR and how much he plays, above the level of a quarterback who plays very rarely and is on the fringe of the NFL


    Marks rating was -3.8. The only QB with a negative QB PAR. He is rated worse, as in below, a qb "who plays rarely and is on the fringe of the NFL".

    THAT is a guy I want leading my team. NOT.

    But your schtick works. Here I am feeding the troll. But at least you are committed to your delusion.
    What QB given the cast of players we had last year and the offensive philosophy of our coaching "braintrust" would have had success last year.

    Its absolutely amazing they won the number of games they did. All of you want to throw out stats but you fail to address the fact that these QB's played on different teams with a different set of offensive coaches. Put those QB's in Rex's system and with the crap skill players we had on O and then we can talk and compare numbers.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by 56mehl56 View Post
    What QB given the cast of players we had last year and the offensive philosophy of our coaching "braintrust" would have had success last year.

    Its absolutely amazing they won the number of games they did. All of you want to throw out stats but you fail to address the fact that these QB's played on different teams with a different set of offensive coaches. Put those QB's in Rex's system and with the crap skill players we had on O and then we can talk and compare numbers.
    The delusion spreads...

    Mark was broken in the Baltimore game in 2011. Mangold went down, and Mark got pounded. He has never been the same since. He was never stellar, but now he panics in the pocket at the first sign of a protection breakdown. He does not step up in the pocket. He panics and backpedals into sacks and fumbles. He is a broken qb.

    Do you know why you think that are skill positions are crap? Because they have Mark Sanchez throwing to them. He constantly doesn't see open receivers, overthrows or under throws those that he does see, can't read a defense after 4 seasons, can't properly adjust protections so he won't get killed. When his receivers do catch a ball, their skill is usually the reason. Mark cannot "throw a receiver open". He never hits a receiver in stride, so they can do something with it. He throws "murder balls".

    You have it completely backwards. Aside from Shonne "run at a defender instead of alluding him" Green, Mark's skill positions had the talent. He doesn't.

    Geno time!

  9. #129
    I find it funny that if the Jets went after Carson Palmer or Ryan Fitzpatrick everyone on this board would go ape poop (myself included) and yet Sanchez isn't even as good as either of these guys (statistics bear this out) and there are still many who are making excuses and think he will win the qb competition.

    There is no chance Sanchez is the starter this year. None.
    Idzik is employing the same Tebow strategy, hold on to him, hope to trade him for a pick and then release him.

    Geno and Garrard (mentor) 100% make the roster.
    Sanchez vs McElroy... you take McElroy, who is younger, cheaper, smarter, and already under contract for next year.

  10. #130
    Realistically, the starter competition should come down to Sanchez vs Gerrard. Geno should take the year to work with the coaches, and observe. No reason to rush him before he's ready. ONLY exception would be if he's head and shoulders better than Sanchez and Gerrard, then no choice. Doubt that happens. McElroy and Simms battle for practice spot.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by GandWFan View Post
    SAR, I have to hand it to you. You are really dedicated to your delusion. Good for you.

    Just to put this in perspective... Mark Sanchez was ranked 36th best QB in a league with 32 teams.

    But at least you are committed to your delusion.
    Delusion? Nope. Fact. Just fact.

    Fact 1: Mark Sanchez got off to a fast start, fell apart, there's a chance that he might bounce back.

    Fact 2: This team was built to win on Defense and Rushing and the failure of those two areas hurt this team far more than the quarterback did.

    Anyone with two eyes could see that the offense coming out of Cortland in August was awful and that Mark Sanchez was set up to fail. Wasn't very shocking to see the team struggle on offense. No one would say that we were constructed for Air Ryan, throwing the ball 40-50 times a game. If that was the plan, we'd have invested at WR and TE. Chaz Schilens? Mardy Gilyard? Glyde Gates? Konrad Reuland? What? Who?

    But to see the defense and the ground attack fall apart like that, well, that was surprising. And the special teams was just as bad. Those are supposed to be our bread and butter, that's how we're supposed to win games.

    If you're mad about last season, be mad at the right people. Rex Ryan. The Defense. Shonn Greene. Mark Sanchez wasn't our problem. He played badly, but he wasn't the reason we were so bad. We're built to win on D and RB, they sucked, that's why we lost.

    SAR I
    Last edited by SAR I; 05-04-2013 at 11:25 AM.

  12. #132
    Warren Moon struggled his first four seasons in the league. Things worked out okay.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by GandWFan View Post
    The delusion spreads...

    Mark was broken in the Baltimore game in 2011. Mangold went down, and Mark got pounded. He has never been the same since. He was never stellar, but now he panics in the pocket at the first sign of a protection breakdown. He does not step up in the pocket. He panics and backpedals into sacks and fumbles. He is a broken qb.
    You're damned right he's a broken QB, and it's the Jets that broke him by not supporting him with any offensive weapons last year. Chaz Schilens? Mardy Gilyard? Glyde Gates? Konrad Reuland? What? Who?

    When Mark was surrounded with a decent running game and talented WR's and asked to throw 30 times a game, he played very well. When Mark was surrounded with a lousy running game and poor WR's and asked to throw 50 times a game, he sucked.

    Can you believe it? Isn't that rocket science? It takes so much work to figure this stuff out, right?

    SAR I

  14. #134
    howabout billy kilmer, jay schroeder, doug williams, rich gannon, jim hart, vinny, rob johnson, jim mcmahon, brett favre, joe theisman, plunkett, johnny unitas, dave kreig, plummer, cutler, and so on.

    there are tons of qb's who suck it up their first few seasons and then have career turnarounds. usually they get better because they finally find a team with a system that works. and imo the true measure of how good a qb is, is when he's acheived success on more than one team. not for nothing marino is just as responsible for his team's undoing as much as their success. why? primarily because he stuck around for so long. the doltfins would have been wise to trade him in the early 90's. but secondarily, the qb becomes too much of a focus for the team so in marino's case the running game was pitiful.

  15. #135
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    I heard that the Omaha Beef where Turnover 6 will be going in June to compete with Teblow for the backup job has terrific, marvy offensive talent he needs to succeed. Plus, that Arena League has agreed to force Beef defensive players to play with both hands tied behind their back so they won't be able to field Turnover 6's multiple attempted interceptions and fumbles.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by SAR I View Post
    Delusion? Nope. Fact. Just fact.

    Fact 1: Mark Sanchez got off to a fast start, fell apart, there's a chance that he might bounce back.

    Fact 2: This team was built to win on Defense and Rushing and the failure of those two areas hurt this team far more than the quarterback did.

    Anyone with two eyes could see that the offense coming out of Cortland in August was awful and that Mark Sanchez was set up to fail. Wasn't very shocking to see the team struggle on offense. No one would say that we were constructed for Air Ryan, throwing the ball 40-50 times a game. If that was the plan, we'd have invested at WR and TE. Chaz Schilens? Mardy Gilyard? Glyde Gates? Konrad Reuland? What? Who?

    But to see the defense and the ground attack fall apart like that, well, that was surprising. And the special teams was just as bad. Those are supposed to be our bread and butter, that's how we're supposed to win games.

    If you're mad about last season, be mad at the right people. Rex Ryan. The Defense. Shonn Greene. Mark Sanchez wasn't our problem. He played badly, but he wasn't the reason we were so bad. We're built to win on D and RB, they sucked, that's why we lost.

    SAR I
    So you are saying that the team was built to support a crappy qb, so don't be mad at Mark for being a crappy qb, just because he was crappy.

    Haha... Ok, now I get ya.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by SAR I View Post
    You're damned right he's a broken QB, and it's the Jets that broke him by not supporting him with any offensive weapons last year. Chaz Schilens? Mardy Gilyard? Glyde Gates? Konrad Reuland? What? Who?

    When Mark was surrounded with a decent running game and talented WR's and asked to throw 30 times a game, he played very well. When Mark was surrounded with a lousy running game and poor WR's and asked to throw 50 times a game, he sucked.

    Can you believe it? Isn't that rocket science? It takes so much work to figure this stuff out, right?

    SAR I
    If he is broken, he is broken. Time to move on. If he needs everything to be perfect around him, he is not an asset. Getting rid of him would be addition by subtraction.

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetstream23 View Post
    I'm seeing Eli, Doug Williams, Gannon, Steve Young, Vinny Testaverde, etc.

    So we're saying there's a chance, even if it's small, that under the right circumstances we could see Sanchez 2.0 be successful?

    I think we need to give him one more shot and not dump him on June 1. Let him battle it out all Summer and see what happens. But this is the last shot.

    Cutting him on June 1 would be a mistake in my opinion. Unfortunately, I can see a very Jet-like scenario in which we dump Sanchez just as he's starting to "get it" and he catches on with another team to become a good starter.

    I can just imagine Sanchez becoming good, not great, but a consistent starter for some team whose coach says, "Well, look at who was surrounding him in 2012. What did you expect? Mark Sanchez isn't inadequate, it was the Jets handling of Mark Sanchez that was inadequate. We're happy he's our starting QB."
    I agree with you Jetstream. I'm really curious to see Sanchez in MM's system. I know there's talent in there. Even with bad skill players, you should be able to see whether Mark is in the right system and is playing the position correctly(as long as there's decent protection.) In any event, the starting quarterback should be either Sanchez or Gerrard. Do not start Geno Smith!

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by TJ View Post
    I agree with you Jetstream. I'm really curious to see Sanchez in MM's system. I know there's talent in there. Even with bad skill players, you should be able to see whether Mark is in the right system and is playing the position correctly(as long as there's decent protection.) In any event, the starting quarterback should be either Sanchez or Gerrard. Do not start Geno Smith!
    The starting qb should be Garrard. His worst year was better than Mark's best. End Of Story.
    Last edited by GandWFan; 05-04-2013 at 01:05 PM.

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by GandWFan View Post
    The starting qb should be Garrard. His worse year was better than Marks best. End Of Story.
    How did you come to that conclusion?? http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/pl...sf/ID/08310201

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