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Thread: Can anyone tell me what Obama's policy is in Syria?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    There is no reason for U.S. involvement in Syria.
    Not entirely: if Sunnis take over, Iran loses an important puppet. And ****ing with Iran should be Job#1

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by quantum View Post
    Not entirely: if Sunnis take over, Iran loses an important puppet. And ****ing with Iran should be Job#1


    Ah, but if you let them totally beat each other up, who cares who wins. They will be totally depleted. A Phyrric victory. The best solution.
    ALL the Moslems lose. Syria, the rebels, Iran, AlQuada, Hezbollah, the Palestinians.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Apache 51 View Post
    Let the Israeli's fly in for something other than that is in their interest only. F'ng joke.
    LOL. You obviously don't know all that much about Israeli interests.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker134 View Post
    It's been a week since US intelligence presented clear evidence that Assad's regime has used chemical weapons against his own people. He has slaughtered 70,000 mostly defenseless people, specifically targeting women and children. Tough guy Obama drew a red line regarding chemical weapons, then gives a BS lawyer-response when presented with the evidence in his disastrous press conference earlier this week.

    I realize the American people have middle-east fatigue, but what's happening in Syria constitutes genocide.

    I'm sure Iran, North Korea, China and Russia are enjoying our wimp President at his sissy best.
    Who cares?

    Let them kill each other. It's the only thing they're good at.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by doggin94it View Post
    LOL. You obviously don't know all that much about Israeli interests.
    Their own.

  6. #46
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    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/31/wo...1CF000F9B94A5F

    This is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by doggin94it View Post
    LOL. You obviously don't know all that much about Israeli interests.
    Enlighten us.

    What ARE Israel's interests, and why should those interests be important enough to the Untied States, and the average United States citizen, that we should care?

    Our support of Israel is clearly a factor in the ongoing "War" on Terror, as is our millitary presense in a variety of Middle Eastern Nations (often defending Israeli interests as well as our own).

    Tell us, briefly, why the costs (Terrorism, conflict with rest fo the region, massive use of taxpayer funds to aid Israel, etc.) is worth it to us, Joe Q. Average Citizen.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    Enlighten us.

    What ARE Israel's interests, and why should those interests be important enough to the Untied States, and the average United States citizen, that we should care?

    Our support of Israel is clearly a factor in the ongoing "War" on Terror, as is our millitary presense in a variety of Middle Eastern Nations (often defending Israeli interests as well as our own).

    Tell us, briefly, why the costs (Terrorism, conflict with rest fo the region, massive use of taxpayer funds to aid Israel, etc.) is worth it to us, Joe Q. Average Citizen.
    Saying clearly a factory doesn't provide any basis of fact. If you're suggesting that our policy isn't based on US interest please specify, otherwise it's just speculative BS.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post
    Saying clearly a factory doesn't provide any basis of fact.
    The words and statements of those carrying out the attacks or the statements of some of the other Nation States in the region are not evidence that its a factor?

    The idea that U.S. support for Israel is a factor is a generally accepted fact Winston. I feel no compunction to "prove" it to you anymore than I'd feel the need to "prove" water is wet.

    If you're suggesting that our policy isn't based on US interest please specify,
    Hence why I asked Doggin to clarify what Israli Interests are, and why they are important to the United States and the average U.S. citizen.

    As such, there is nothing for ME to specify. I'm asking the question.

    Also, let me be clear, I'm not particularly interested in your thoughts, such as they are, on this topic. My question and desire for discussion is specificly for Doggin, and it is his viewpoint I am interested in hearing.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    The words and statements of those carrying out the attacks or the statements of some of the other Nation States in the region are not evidence that its a factor?

    The idea that U.S. support for Israel is a factor is a generally accepted fact Winston. I feel no compunction to "prove" it to you anymore than I'd feel the need to "prove" water is wet.


    Generally accepted and fact are not the same thing. Your opinion may or may not be generally accepted although granted in some circles it is accepted. That certainly doesn't establish that it hass anything to do with fact. Making broad statements and calling it fact to add weight to a position doesn't make it so.

    US policy toward Israel is based on US interest I could care less about Israeli interest that don't coincide with US interest when it comes to aid and I doubt the average US citizen sees it any differently anymore than they do aid to Egypt or Pakistan or any number of nations around the world.

    Personally I was delighted that Israel destroyed Iraq's and Syria's nuclear programs, certainly it was in our interest and the world's interest. I was thrilled that Israel supplied US massive amounts of intelligence during the cold war that helped us keep the Soviet Union in check and keep oil flowing freely around the world. I'm sure we are getting intel right now on the armed insurgency in Syria that could benefit us greatly if we choose to arm groups that may potentially be terrorist organizations who would strike out at us at some point along with intel on chemical and biological weapons that may fall into the wrong hands. Those are areas that are clearly in the US interest and the average American probably could understand that if it was explained to them.
    Last edited by Winstonbiggs; 05-30-2013 at 11:57 AM.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post
    Generally accepted and fact are not the same thing. Your opinion may or may not be generally accepted although granted in some circles it is accepted. That certainly doesn't establish that it hass anything to do with fact. Making broad statements and calling it fact to add weight to a position doesn't make it so.
    Once again,

    Also, let me be clear, I'm not particularly interested in your thoughts, such as they are, on this topic. My question and desire for discussion is specificly for Doggin, and it is his viewpoint I am interested in hearing.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post
    Saying clearly a factory doesn't provide any basis of fact. If you're suggesting that our policy isn't based on US interest please specify, otherwise it's just speculative BS.
    The U.S having their largest Embassy in Cairo (Until Kabul) was done specifically to have a presence in the Middle East to help protect Israel. Billions of dollars given to Mubarak too.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    Once again,
    I wasn't talking to you. This is an open forum not your private message service. Feel free to ignore my posts, I won't take it personally.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    Enlighten us.

    What ARE Israel's interests, and why should those interests be important enough to the Untied States, and the average United States citizen, that we should care?
    Lets take these separately.

    1) Israel's interests in Syria are a stable Syrian government that is not a sponsor of terror/war against it and not seeking its destruction.

    The Assad government, prior to the uprising, fit roughly 2/3 of that equation. It supported and armed Hezbollah, and provided moral support to Palestinian terror groups (large negatives) but was also stable and kept the border quiet (large positives). On balance, Israel could live with the Assad government on its northern border; it posed a danger, but not an existential one, and Israel could address the arming of Hezbollah in a piecemeal fashion (as it had for the last 20 years).

    The Assad government was/is also brutal and repressive. But beyond the fact that it was never going to set the conditions for a comprehensive peace, and generalized disgust at the mistreatment of Syrians under the regime, that really wasn't Israel's worry.

    The insurgents might - might - fit one of those characteristics. If they win, they certainly won't be arming Hezbollah anymore, which is obviously a large benefit. But Iran will find other ways to get arms to Lebanon, and there's no guarantee that the new Syrian government wouldn't instead arm Sunni groups looking to take the mantle of "resistance" from Hezbollah. If the al Nusra folks take charge post-Assad (which is a distinct possibility), that becomes highly likely - along with the end of the quiet border with Syria.

    It is also highly unlikely that any post-Assad government will be stable.

    Bottom line, the Israelis don't really have a clear interest in the outcome of the Syrian revolution. The best case scenario (emergence of a stable, human rights respecting, civil society) and worst case scenario (emergence of a violently Islamist state fresh from a military victory and looking for another military confrontation) both involve insurgent victories - and in the event of an insurgent victory the worst case scenario is the significantly more likely result than the best case scenario. The middle ground is the status quo - not good, but livable - with the Assad regime surviving. (Of course, after brutalizing his citizens, a surviving Assad is likely to attempt to burnish his popularity in the Arab world by more vigorous anti-Israel behavior). Given the range of outcomes, Israel isn't inclined to push either side (regime or insurgents) to victory, and is much more focused on preparing to react to whatever emerges from Syria's ashes.

    As such, Israel has next to no interest in American intervention in Syria.

    2) Why should Israel's interests be important to the American government and taxpayers? Well, they shouldn't, not as Israel's interests per se. That said, Israel is an American ally, a status that, to have meaning at all, requires America to support Israel where appropriate. (A state that abandons its allies in times of need is a state that will soon have no allies). Even aside from the moral and social reasons for an alliance between the US and the Middle East's only pluralistic and democratic society, that alliance doesn't just provide one-way benefits. The US benefits from Israeli intelligence, technology, and (yes) military purchases. Israel is no doubt the net beneficiary, but that's to be expected in any alliance between a country the size of a continent and a country the size of New Jersey.

    More, the coldly self-interested question isn't whether the US or Israel gain more from the alliance between them - it is whether the US gains more from an alliance with Israel than it would from abandoning that alliance. The answer is "yes".

    Our support of Israel is clearly a factor in the ongoing "War" on Terror, as is our millitary presense in a variety of Middle Eastern Nations (often defending Israeli interests as well as our own).
    Tell us, briefly, why the costs (Terrorism, conflict with rest fo the region, massive use of taxpayer funds to aid Israel, etc.) is worth it to us, Joe Q. Average Citizen.
    The claim that our support of Israel is a factor in the war on terror is probably true. The implication that it's a significant factor is not. al Qaeda didn't even mention Israel in its "grievance list" until well after 9/11, when its support in the Muslim world began to wane (after the AQ-Iraq attacks on Iraqi Shiites). The Islamist ideology opposes western influence as a dangerous impurity in and insult to Muslim society, and openly seeks the imposition of a caliphate across Muslim lands. Unless you are suggesting that those goals are compatible with American interests, conflict with violently Islamist groups is inevitable. Throwing Israel under the bus will no more change that basic dynamic than throwing "Sudetenland" to Germany changed the basic dynamic of Europe and German aggression in the 1930s. Appeasement is a poor strategy in the best of times. That's particularly true where, given the underlying ideologies, the appeasement is guaranteed not to work.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post
    I wasn't talking to you.
    Sure you were. You quoted me and have been talking to me directly in each of these recent posts.

    Feel free to ignore my posts, I won't take it personally.
    No, please, by all means take it personally. Your decent into sperging bad certainly warrants it.

    Now, back on topic.....

    Thanks Doggin, I look forward to reading your post. Thank you.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    Sure you were. You quoted me and have been talking to me directly in each of these recent posts.



    No, please, by all means take it personally. Your decent into sperging bad certainly warrants it.

    Now, back on topic.....

    Thanks Doggin, I look forward to reading your post. Thank you.
    Gee...and you wonder how people knew who you were so quickly.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post

    No, please, by all means take it personally. Your decent into sperging bad certainly warrants it.
    Excellent retort!

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by doggin94it View Post
    As such, Israel has next to no interest in American intervention in Syria.
    Let me qualify this a bit. If there was any possibility that the US would be sufficiently deeply involved in Syria to guarantee the emergence of a stable, western oriented, peace loving Syria, Israel would likely be strongly in favor of such intervention. Since there is no possibility of that happening (it would require a military and human commitment on the order of the Iraq intervention, with no guarantees of success and no real imperative beyond humanitarian, since prevention of regional war can be maintained through less intensive means), my analysis is a good one, IMO (obviously, or I wouldn't have offered it )

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by FF2 View Post
    Gee...and you wonder how people knew who you were so quickly.
    A not-quite-witty off-topic insult one-liner from FF.

    How new.

    How interesting.



    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post
    Excellent retort!
    I thought so too. Of course, you COULD question if that opinion is based in the facts or not....

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    A not-quite-witty off-topic insult one-liner from FF.

    How new.

    How interesting.

    When can we expect your next good bye rant and new clever name?

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