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Thread: Fascinating testimony regarding Benghazi

  1. #101
    In the leadup to the 2012 Election, the Administation appears to have engaged in a political-based coverup (at worst)/dishonest message management (at best) over a terrorist attack.

    In the same period, the IRS was engaged in illegal activities targeting conservative/tea party organizations.

    If we we to replace "Obama" with "Bush", and replace "Conservative" with "Progressive", I cannot believe there is a single left-leaning poster here who would not be very angry about these events, and demanding answers and investigations.

    In my view, some days you simply have to remove your own party loyalty and look at the actions taken. In these two cases, with refeences to party taken out, I find it hard that an objective observer would not find "effecting the election" to be a possible cause of these events, would ot find that the actions taken (on both counts) were in fact illegal, and would not wish for investigation to uncover exactly who ordered what, and who did what, and for them to be punished accordingly.

    As with previous events, like Nixon, this kind of issue should (stress should) go beyond Politics. Because the rule in Washington ios what one side gets away with today, the other side will get away with worse in 4 years. We, all of us, should not want that.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Axil View Post
    The Obama administration lied to the public, covered up facts, etc. But so what?
    So take them at their word that no one knew nothing about IRS targeting political enemies.

    Obama makes Nixon look like a boyscout who fibbed.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    In the leadup to the 2012 Election, the Administation appears to have engaged in a political-based coverup (at worst)/dishonest message management (at best) over a terrorist attack.

    In the same period, the IRS was engaged in illegal activities targeting conservative/tea party organizations.

    If we we to replace "Obama" with "Bush", and replace "Conservative" with "Progressive", I cannot believe there is a single left-leaning poster here who would not be very angry about these events, and demanding answers and investigations.

    In my view, some days you simply have to remove your own party loyalty and look at the actions taken. In these two cases, with refeences to party taken out, I find it hard that an objective observer would not find "effecting the election" to be a possible cause of these events, would ot find that the actions taken (on both counts) were in fact illegal, and would not wish for investigation to uncover exactly who ordered what, and who did what, and for them to be punished accordingly.

    As with previous events, like Nixon, this kind of issue should (stress should) go beyond Politics. Because the rule in Washington ios what one side gets away with today, the other side will get away with worse in 4 years. We, all of us, should not want that.
    As far as transparency this administration has been awful. They have taken tons of money from the worst of the worst, covered up, outright lied on policy, increased the power of the State over the individual to scary proportions. There is no doubt if we actually had a rational opposition a moderate electorate would be more than happy to throw them out.

    The problem is the opposition has gone so far off the reservation that in spite of the outright pitiful performance of this administration, the lies, cover ups and policy blunders, you still have to like their overall judgment better than the "loyal" opposition.

    As our GM likes to point out it's a competition.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post

    The problem is the opposition
    What a crock of sh*t you just wrote.

    You yourself just stated the problem: As far as transparency this administration has been awful. They have taken tons of money from the worst of the worst, covered up, outright lied on policy, increased the power of the State over the individual to scary proportions.

    That's the problem, guy. Not the "opposition".

    The IRS is being used as an agency to intimidate indiscriminately. That's totally unprecedented. And it's so far beyond the pale that even some on the left are beginning to notice.

    But you want to talk about the opposition (ie, you're good with the Obama transgressions, but don't want to admit it.)

    It's like your house got robbed and you'd just as soon not file a police report because you not only don't trust cops, but have never met one.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axil View Post
    Would you care to elaborate on that? Because i'm pretty apathetic about all this myself.

    The Obama administration lied to the public, covered up facts, etc. But so what? Nothing will be done about it. The truth is only useful, if that information can be used to implement change.
    At some point, the people will demand fundamental change in government if scandals and outright incompetence continue to be exposed administration after administration and Congress after Congress under both Democrat and Republican control. As an opponent to status quo government and proponent for legitimate third parties, this is the best opportunity for peacefully initiating fundamental change to the failing framework of government at the federal level.

  6. #106
    George Will put it very succinctly yesterday on ABC News-

    MARTHA RADDATZ, SUBSTITUTE HOST: And they got those talking points out there. George Will, is this going to last? Is this going to have a lasting effect as an unacceptable way to do business at the White House?

    GEORGE WILL: Lasting. A week ago, Mr. Carney - who's usefulness to this administration is diminishing rapidly - a week ago he said Benghazi was a long time ago as if it was the Punic Wars. This is a very live issue, because we now know three things.

    We know that Mr. Hicks, the night of the attack, speaking from Libya, said pretty much what it was, an armed interaction, not a movie review conducted with rocket-propelled grenades and mortars.

    Five days later on this program and on four other Sunday morning programs, the idea of an exceptionally boisterous movie review was still the administration's position.

    And then, 14 days after the attack, at the UN, it was the same thing.

    We started out with three arguments. Was security lax in Benghazi? Demonstrably. Could forces have been there to rescue them? Doubtful. Has the nation been systemically misled? Certainly.

    Now, we need a select committee in congress because the State Department's misnamed accountability review board neglected to interview even the secretary of state.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by parafly View Post
    At some point, the people will demand fundamental change in government if scandals and outright incompetence continue to be exposed administration after administration and Congress after Congress under both Democrat and Republican control. As an opponent to status quo government and proponent for legitimate third parties, this is the best opportunity for peacefully initiating fundamental change to the failing framework of government at the federal level.
    I don't believe history has shown us many examples of peaceful fundamental change in government.

    But, i hope you're right.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by sackdance View Post
    What a crock of sh*t you just wrote.

    You yourself just stated the problem: As far as transparency this administration has been awful. They have taken tons of money from the worst of the worst, covered up, outright lied on policy, increased the power of the State over the individual to scary proportions.

    That's the problem, guy. Not the "opposition".

    The IRS is being used as an agency to intimidate indiscriminately. That's totally unprecedented. And it's so far beyond the pale that even some on the left are beginning to notice.

    But you want to talk about the opposition (ie, you're good with the Obama transgressions, but don't want to admit it.)

    It's like your house got robbed and you'd just as soon not file a police report because you not only don't trust cops, but have never met one.
    Nothing is beyond the pale of the office of the Presidency. To act like this is something new is a lie and you know it. The Bush administration lied to the UN to take us to war. The Johnson administration lied to expand the war in VN. The Nixon administration broke into the oppositions headquarters. Reagan did Iran/Contra. The IRS has been used as has the FBI and the CIA by administrations to spy on and taint the opposition.

    It's a disgrace but at the end of the day the guys investigating have no cred and the Republican opposition isn't trusted anymore than this administration.

    That is not a crock of ****. The public fully understood the cover up and Obama was re-elected in a landslide and the Republicans vote count in the Senate and the House overall was awful.

    This is an attempt to get Hillary and the fact is if Hillary gets the nomination and the Republicans are forced to run a primary to the hard right they are most probably going to get their asses kicked again. Claiming the public is stupid or doesn't get it is simply wrong. The public does get it and in spite of the weasel in the White House they feel he has better overall judgment than the opposition.
    Last edited by Winstonbiggs; 05-13-2013 at 12:40 PM.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axil View Post
    I don't believe history has shown us many examples of peaceful fundamental change in government.

    But, i hope you're right.
    Fundamental change in our case would be moving away from a plutocratic duocracy and privately financed campaigns. I think it can be done.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Buster View Post
    You need to curb your outrage in regard the loss of American lives. To me it is does not seem to be genuine


    Bluntly put, I am an American. I care about OUR people.
    If a terrorist or car bomber is killed attacking, I applaud.

    It's like including the murderer in the body count od a crime. No. Should be "4 victims murdered and the murderer killed by police".

    I've also made my point on Syria. Let them all kill each other. The Syrian regime is evil. An enemy of Israel Let them become weak.
    The rebels are AlQaeda. The hate the US and Israel. Let them take a beating as well. Win win.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Buster View Post
    You need to curb your outrage in regard the loss of American lives. To me it is does not seem to be genuine


    Bluntly put, I am an American. I care about OUR people.
    If a terrorist or car bomber is killed attacking, I applaud.

    It's like including the murderer in the body count od a crime. No. Should be "4 victims murdered and the murderer killed by police".

    I've also made my point on Syria. Let them all kill each other. The Syrian regime is evil. An enemy of Israel Let them become weak.
    The rebels are AlQaeda. The hate the US and Israel. Let them take a beating as well. Win win.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post

    That is not a crock of ****.
    Your rationale is.

    One side behaves egregiously so you bemoan the other side? Really?

    Funny thing is, Winston, that's exactly how some Democratic talking heads and media luminaries have played it ... unsuccessfully.

    What you have in common with the spinmeisters is a instinctual refusal to confront wrongdoing because of who the transgressors are.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by sackdance View Post
    Your rationale is.

    One side behaves egregiously so you bemoan the other side? Really?

    Funny thing is, Winston, that's exactly how some Democratic talking heads and media luminaries have played it ... unsuccessfully.

    What you have in common with the spinmeisters is a instinctual refusal to confront wrongdoing because of who the transgressors are.
    I have no issue calling this administration gutless lying scumbags who are outright corrupt.

    The problem is when the guys on investigating aren't exactly neutral parties are they. The investigation is highly political and partisan. They should appoint a special prosecutor who is independent and end the nonsense. The spin is decidedly two sided.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by sackdance View Post
    Your rationale is.

    One side behaves egregiously so you bemoan the other side? Really?

    Funny thing is, Winston, that's exactly how some Democratic talking heads and media luminaries have played it ... unsuccessfully.

    What you have in common with the spinmeisters is a instinctual refusal to confront wrongdoing because of who the transgressors are.
    If Hillary wasn't running in 2016 all this fake outrage about the State Dept's press releases would be very little if at all.

    The IRS thing is outragous and now hopefully everyone in DC will try to do something about that horrific agency.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post
    I have no issue calling this administration gutless lying scumbags who are outright corrupt.

    The problem is when the guys on investigating aren't exactly neutral parties are they. The investigation is highly political and partisan. They should appoint a special prosecutor who is independent and end the nonsense. The spin is decidedly two sided.
    lol - and who exactly would that be? Someone who voted for a third party candidate? It would be impossible and you know it.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by cr726 View Post
    If Hillary wasn't running in 2016 all this fake outrage about the State Dept's press releases would be very little if at all.
    That right? So the outrage was fake back in Sept/October, too? Because I remember a grand total of zero people, on either the right or the left, who truly believed a US ambassador was besieged and murdered over a YouTube video - but that's precisely the flaming bag of dog sh*t the federal government tried off as the truth to the American people.

    The guy who made the YouTube video is still in jail, btw. Not really sure why.

    (Meanwhile Jon Corzine, who literally stole and lost over $1billion worth of cash from commodity trader accounts (mom & pops) and personally saw the job loss of 3000+ people at MF Global won't even get a talking to.)

    And for all the do-good liberals trashed (and continue to trash) George Bush for his associations with Ken Lay, Mr. Lay was indicted and convicted within Bush's tenure in office.

    Quote Originally Posted by cr726 View Post
    The IRS thing is outragous and now hopefully everyone in DC will try to do something about that horrific agency.
    The IRS has been the one true Obama-created engine of employment growth - now you want to jeopardize that all because it's been used to thwart the opposition? Really? You don't mind any other of Obama's endless transgressions, why does this one bother you?

  17. #117
    Yea, yea, yea. I agree with Pinkering and the rest of this is just nonsense. Political BS at it's finest again.

    Dude get a grip.



    Quote Originally Posted by sackdance View Post
    That right? So the outrage was fake back in Sept/October, too? Because I remember a grand total of zero people, on either the right or the left, who truly believed a US ambassador was besieged and murdered over a YouTube video - but that's precisely the flaming bag of dog sh*t the federal government tried off as the truth to the American people.

    The guy who made the YouTube video is still in jail, btw. Not really sure why.

    (Meanwhile Jon Corzine, who literally stole and lost over $1billion worth of cash from commodity trader accounts (mom & pops) and personally saw the job loss of 3000+ people at MF Global won't even get a talking to.)

    And for all the do-good liberals trashed (and continue to trash) George Bush for his associations with Ken Lay, Mr. Lay was indicted and convicted within Bush's tenure in office.


    The IRS has been the one true Obama-created engine of employment growth - now you want to jeopardize that all because it's been used to thwart the opposition? Really? You don't mind any other of Obama's endless transgressions, why does this one bother you?

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by quantum View Post
    lol - and who exactly would that be? Someone who voted for a third party candidate? It would be impossible and you know it.
    If you don't believe in an independent prosecutor with real power and want to leave the investigation to the hacks on the right why are you upset about the left using government to go after the right when the right is using government to go after the left?

    I'm pretty confident that there are some excellent legal minds who don't have a political agenda who can investigate fairly. If you don't believe that what are we talking about? We might as well have anarchy.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by cr726 View Post
    Political BS at it's finest again.
    Help me out, expert gripper, but how exactly is an organized AQ-affiliated attack that murdered a US Ambassador "political BS"?

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by sackdance View Post
    Help me out, expert gripper, but how exactly is an organized AQ-affiliated attack that murdered a US Ambassador "political BS"?
    See below drama Queen.


    Mr. Pickering said his board didnít review numerous edits to the so-called talking points developed by the Central Intelligence Agency after the attack. ďAt the time, and still now, I find it hard to see how the talking points issues relate to the security at the Benghazi mission,Ē Mr. Pickering said.
    http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/0...-board-report/

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