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Thread: Keyshawn, Farrior, Abraham, Vilma, Moss, Revis

  1. #21
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    this thread deserves to be dumped all over.



    The only guy Woody didnt 'want' to pay was Revis, and rightfully so. The other players all left under circumstances already mentioned in this thread. Talk about revisionist history.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by kali yuga View Post
    That's interesting, although when you mention Belichick... you can count more players for the Pats lost because of money than the Jets.

    The only difference is that the Pats have a quarterback to compensate for their losses, and the Jets have been playing sandbox in that department for close to 4 decades.
    They do seem to make up for their money decision. I think the only thing they have been wrong with to date has the Richard Seymour trade. I think that move has cost them at least another title. The only thing they have been draft well is depth.

  3. #23

    Salary Cap makes this argument weak

    Since 1994 all teams were capped on the max they could spend to field a team and Woody picked up ownership in 2000. Since that period the Jets have bordered on maxing out that cap figure and would not be considered "cheap". I think their salary would be very similar to the Giants and Pats since Woody took over.

    Teams have the ability to pay a few stars lots of $$$$ and everyone else fights over the scraps. Its clear a QB deserves to get paid but we can all debate what to pay the best LT, WR, RB and pass rusher. Generally, DBs get paid less so $16 million per year for the "best ever" may still be too much. The only excepetion is a team on the cusp of winning the Super Bowl who need that one player to make a difference (49ers?).

    Trading KJ was a great move in any scenario. Revis was good move for the current rebuild mode of Jets. JAbes on paper was worth the $$$ but he was so fragile that it was a borderline decision.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by wepnx View Post
    I do think it was about money although there was a reason for it. The Jets do wind up too many times paying the wrong guy the big money. They used to try and get cheap with play makers and then pay the quiet workman way too much busting their cap.
    I wouldn't argue that the Jets have bad decisions throughout the years, but deciding what players to sign, cut and trade is not a function of the owner or his willingness to pay. It's all on the GM to make those decision.

    If you want to say Woody has chosen bad GM's or gets involved in decision making when he shouldn't - that's a different argument. But it's NOT about money.

    They have a pool of money they are allowed to spend each year, they spend the maximum. They are resource allocation decision.

    Say they made bad decisions, fine - but it's not a unwillingness to spend.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    1. Johnson was disgruntled here, and was traded for 2 #1 picks. His play once gone was good at times, but generally quite average, at best.

    2. Farrior was a solid average LB here who found himself out when we changed systems (if I recall), and went on to thrive in Pittsburgh where so many LB'er thrive.

    3. Abraham was a very good pass-rush DE....in the 40% of the snaps he was able to play here. He was a liabillity vs. the run. His injury history and lack of full-time availabillity warranted letting him go.

    4. Vilma was in the wrong system in a system change and too expensive for what he offered that new system (in the Head Coaches mind)

    5. Santana Moss was an average WR here at best. He has been the Redskins Santonio Holmes for a while now, average in a below-average unit holding down the fort on a WR-weak team.

    6. Revis wanted to be paid Peyton Manning money on a 6-10 team with cap problems and a hundred talent holes.

    Trying to boil this all down to "cheap owner" is IMO a gross oversimplification of the specific players, their pro/cons, the team and team makeup/system, and (yes) their costs vs. benefit analysis at that time, all factors included.

    In any event, Idzik (our GM) bears no responsabillity for these, nor (IMO) does Woody as Owner. You hire a GM to make these decisions.
    Garbage. what you just described is called "the NFL". What you just listed weren't good reasons for doing what we did. They're excuses for losing.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYJ37/12 View Post
    This. And to add, Abraham was coming off his second arrest for dui after kissing a fire hydrant.
    Farrior was not the same Farrior with the Steelers.
    Revis, come on.
    Keyshawn wanted to be the highest paid wr in the NFL and he was maybe top ten at the time.
    Stop with the Woody slant. The guy has been a good owner especially when it comes to spending money. Has there been mistakes, yes, but who doesnt make those?
    I wish someone would list all the owners that have spent more than Woody since he bought in.

    The Jets are always at the cap limit. He spent more than most to get his stadium and easily spent more than most on their training facilities.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Jet Nut View Post
    I wish someone would list all the owners that have spent more than Woody since he bought in.

    The Jets are always at the cap limit. He spent more than most to get his stadium and easily spent more than most on their training facilities.
    Thank you.

  8. #28
    If you want to criticize the Jets for letting their first round talent go, it's a fair assessment, but you have to factor in re-signing Mangold, Ferguson, Harris, Pennington, Ellis, Cromartie, Holmes, etc.

    Letting talent go, especially headaches, yes.

    Cheap owner? Far from. That's unfair.

    Maybe Revis shouldn't have held out 3 times.

    No fault on the players? Revis, Abraham, Johnson were all pains in the ass.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by J-E-T-S-Jets View Post
    What do all of these guys have in common? Very impactful former 1st rounders who have been long term starters. They are also guys that Woody didn't want to pay. Usually when teams dump 1st rounders its because they are busts. Not the New York Jets!
    has Woody been spending below the salary cap in the years he's owned the team?

  10. #30
    Furthermore, how many of those players added to the Win column? Abraham never showed up in the playoffs. How many wins would Revis and his 16 million add to the Bucs? Farrior? 0. Moss? 0. Replaceable. Johnson is the only one who's an impact guy, and he's a WR.

    Martin was re-signed. He sucked, though, right? Didn't contribute.

    You want to win? Being compensated with what the Jets got vs the nothing they would have received was smart. Paying him 100 million when we're a crappy team isn't.

    You want the best CB in the league? Go root for Tampa Bay.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by John_0515 View Post
    If you want to criticize the Jets for letting their first round talent go, it's a fair assessment, but you have to factor in re-signing Mangold, Ferguson, Harris, Pennington, Ellis, Cromartie, Holmes, etc.

    Letting talent go, especially headaches, yes.

    Cheap owner? Far from. That's unfair.

    Maybe Revis shouldn't have held out 3 times.

    No fault on the players? Revis, Abraham, Johnson were all pains in the ass.
    also, none of these first rounders were quarterbacks.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Paradis View Post
    Garbage. what you just described is called "the NFL". What you just listed weren't good reasons for doing what we did. They're excuses for losing.
    If thats how you wish to view them, by all means, do so.

    Certainly some of them were, at the time, moves I disagreed with personally.

    I loved Farrior, he was a favorite of mine. I was very dissapointed about Vilma, as he was indeed a great talent, and was not a fan of the Coach we were bringing in that created the "system fit" problem.

    With that said, I fully supported moving Johnson, and feel that deal was a huge win for the Jets. He was simply not that great, and 2 #1's was a massive overpayment for what he was worth to us and what he provided to Tampa Bay.

    I supported moving Abraham, because to that point he was a guy with alot of talent, but no abillity to stay on the field. I'm not giving that any kinf of high-value long-trm deal, sorry. Perhaps you would, in hindsight. of course, if Abraham went off and continued to be hurt, what then? It was a risk, one based on the resume to-date.

    "Sideline" Santana was a flop in NY. Alligator tears for how awesome he was now, after the fact, almost is enough to make me spit my coffee out my nose. He was loathed here for his dissapointing play between his few flash-in-pan big gainers. He wasn't nearly worth a big cash deal, and no one has ever been afriad of the Redskins because of Moss.

    Everyone agrees that Revis is the best CB in the NFL. But if we're talking about "the NFL", only a mouth breathing derp would give a CB a Peyton Manning type deal when they are where the Jets are, 2-3 years minimum from legitimate competitiveness and with massive talent holes everywhere. Sometimes a player may be great and STILL not be worth his pricetag to a specific team, which is clearly the case here.

    No one (I think) is saying Jets management hasn't made mistakes, we have, plenty of them. But to first law all blame at the Owner being "cheap" is factually incorrect and without basis in evidence. The GM makes these calls, and the Owner has cut enouggh checks to be at max-cap every single year in his tenure thus far. We live in a cap'ed league, something it seems Yankees Fan-types have trouble understanding.

    Sadly, I'd expect the same folks to lament the opposite, when we DO give someone big dollars, and have to cut three 3rd strngers to pay for it, and one goes on to be say, a Patriot, then it's all about how the stupid Owner overpaid and cost us all these brilliant we-should-saw-it thrid stringers, etc, etc, etc.

    If it makes you feel better to hate the Owner, enjoy it. I subscibe to the view that the Owner who pays max-cap every year is the least of our problems, and that the real problems have been the General managers and Coaches who drive these decisions first and foremost.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by J-E-T-S-Jets View Post
    What do all of these guys have in common? Very impactful former 1st rounders who have been long term starters. They are also guys that Woody didn't want to pay. Usually when teams dump 1st rounders its because they are busts. Not the New York Jets!
    Um.

    Keyshawn. Talented head case, we got 2 first round picks.

    Farrior. The coach didn't want him, because they didn't think that he fit the system.

    Vilma. Another coach didn't want him because he didn't fit a system.

    Abraham. Constantly dogged it in the playoffs. Had some alcohol induced episodes. Had injury issues. Got Mangold for him.

    Moss. Another consistent injury issue and played soft.

    Revis. Wanted more than his fair share. Held out twice. The second time he held out of a contract which he held out for in the first place. The locker room didn't need him to be a distraction every year. Revis is not a QB.

    Stop with the woody is cheap ****. Dumb? Yeah maybe. However, he is not cheap.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-E-T-S-Jets View Post
    What do all of these guys have in common? Very impactful former 1st rounders who have been long term starters. They are also guys that Woody didn't want to pay. Usually when teams dump 1st rounders its because they are busts. Not the New York Jets!
    We let Keyshawn go because he was not a playmaker type receiver we thought he was and his mouth wasn't worth the trouble for a possession receiver.

    Moss was traded for Coles because the Jets felt Coles was a better fit and had better chemistry with Chad Pennington.

    Farrior wasn't that special.

    Vilma and Abraham, did not fit well in our 3-4 defense scheme at the time..

    And Revis is coming off a serious injury and wants QB money.

  15. #35
    yeah, real character guys. keyshawn quit on tampa, abraham was a no show in big games, vilma was a bounty hunter. too early to tell about revis. moss and farrior played very well for their next teams.

    Quote Originally Posted by J-E-T-S-Jets View Post
    What do all of these guys have in common? Very impactful former 1st rounders who have been long term starters. They are also guys that Woody didn't want to pay. Usually when teams dump 1st rounders its because they are busts. Not the New York Jets!

  16. #36
    Wow, almost every single one of these moves wound up favoring the Jets in the long run (the Revis one remains to be seen). Money plays a role in virtually every decision, but criticizing Woody for any of these is beyond absurd. If the loss of Keyshawn/Farrior/Abraham/Vilma/Moss/Revis keeps you up at night, you're digging too deep for things to complain about.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jet Nut View Post
    Revis wanted too much and no one will pay him what he wants, he'll never see that contract through the end of it's life. Woody paid him millions, more than any corner ever. Hard to blame him for the trade.

    Farrior was gone before Woody was the owner here.

    Parcells got rid of Keyshawn because he didn't want Groh to be burdened with the nonsense he was going to bring. He had a contract and didn't didn't have to be traded that year.

    Vilma was traded because he didn't fit Manginis 3-4 D, had nothing to do with money.

    Abraham was traded for 2 number 1's. I'd do it again.

    You're argument is misplaced
    Why let the facts get in the way of the op's amusement and Jets bashing?

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Refuel View Post
    Wow, almost every single one of these moves wound up favoring the Jets in the long run (the Revis one remains to be seen). Money plays a role in virtually every decision, but criticizing Woody for any of these is beyond absurd. If the loss of Keyshawn/Farrior/Abraham/Vilma/Moss/Revis keeps you up at night, you're digging too deep for things to complain about.
    agreed! You and JET NUT have nailed it! Thanks to both of you. Some guys just love to bash the Jets!

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelioion View Post
    I wouldn't argue that the Jets have bad decisions throughout the years, but deciding what players to sign, cut and trade is not a function of the owner or his willingness to pay. It's all on the GM to make those decision.

    If you want to say Woody has chosen bad GM's or gets involved in decision making when he shouldn't - that's a different argument. But it's NOT about money.

    They have a pool of money they are allowed to spend each year, they spend the maximum. They are resource allocation decision.

    Say they made bad decisions, fine - but it's not a unwillingness to spend.
    I'm not saying he is cheap. I'm saying it was a money decision to let those players go. One thing you cannot dispute is you do need play makers on your team and for some reason the Jets always seem to let them go at the wrong time. We let go players in their prime and most of the time we never get the same value back. I'm not saying the players we pick are bad but the loss of key players hurts for a long time.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_0515 View Post
    If you want to criticize the Jets for letting their first round talent go, it's a fair assessment, but you have to factor in re-signing Mangold, Ferguson, Harris, Pennington, Ellis, Cromartie, Holmes, etc.

    Letting talent go, especially headaches, yes.

    Cheap owner? Far from. That's unfair.

    Maybe Revis shouldn't have held out 3 times.

    No fault on the players? Revis, Abraham, Johnson were all pains in the ass.
    agreed and well said!

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