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Thread: Martin/Zimmerman Trial

  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by long island leprechaun View Post
    Carrying a bottle of soda and Skittles he just bought.
    The single most over-reported, utterly irrevevant evidence of the entire tragic affair.

    What, exactly, does "skittles and soda" prove that it is required to be repeated so often?

  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    Claims the Government cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt, because Zimmerman was not transported to the Hospital as he was told (by officers) he would be at the time of the shooting (the Defense claim).



    Improperly treated evidence (no bagging of the victims hands for example) means the Prosecution would be unable to prove beyodn areasonable doubt that evidence was not simply brushed off or washed away as Martin's body was transported and beyond.



    Prosecution was a clear victor in day 1, if the media can be believed, aye.
    Really? If he saw an NP the next day and his nose was not broken and he had very minor lacerations, what grounds would he have for arguing that his nose WAS broken the day before or his injuries worse? If anything, Zimmerman had the opportunity to worsen his injuries before seeing the NP, not the other way around.

    Re bagging... you're arguing that trace elements of blood would ALL disappear due to transporting? Really? What did they do, put him through a car wash? That would be near impossible to pull off and the jury is not going to buy it.

  3. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    The single most over-reported, utterly irrevevant evidence of the entire tragic affair.

    What, exactly, does "skittles and soda" prove that it is required to be repeated so often?
    Seriously. What the hell does that have to do with anything?

  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    The single most over-reported, utterly irrevevant evidence of the entire tragic affair.

    What, exactly, does "skittles and soda" prove that it is required to be repeated so often?
    I'm not saying it proves anything other than that it shows, along with the phone call, the Martin was engaged in ordinary and non-suspicious behavior. If I'm on the jury, I'm going to ask: what was Martin up to? What would lead Zimmerman to think he is suspicious or up to trouble? One of the issues here is Zimmerman's intent. Was he responding in a reasonable way to a threat, or was he profiling and stalking with intent to do harm... that's what the prosecutor appears to be heading toward.

  5. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by long island leprechaun View Post
    I'm not saying it proves anything other than that it shows, along with the phone call, the Martin was engaged in ordinary and non-suspicious behavior. If I'm on the jury, I'm going to ask: what was Martin up to? What would lead Zimmerman to think he is suspicious or up to trouble? One of the issues here is Zimmerman's intent. Was he responding in a reasonable way to a threat, or was he profiling and stalking with intent to do harm... that's what the prosecutor appears to be heading toward.
    It's going to be massively hard to prove either argument. It was dark, there was no one else out there. Zimmerman is going to walk.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by long island leprechaun View Post
    Really? If he saw an NP the next day and his nose was not broken and he had very minor lacerations, what grounds would he have for arguing that his nose WAS broken the day before or his injuries worse? If anything, Zimmerman had the opportunity to worsen his injuries before seeing the NP, not the other way around.
    Is there a NP Report saying his nose was unbroken and undamaged? I was unaware of that evidence, so apologies.

    With that said, his nose clearly appearts damaged in the photographic evidence.

    Re bagging... you're arguing that trace elements of blood would ALL disappear due to transporting? Really? What did they do, put him through a car wash? That would be near impossible to pull off and the jury is not going to buy it.
    I'm not arguing anything. I'm stating that improper handling of evidence (specificly the body) is a route the Defense will take to lay our reasonable doubt vs. the prosecutions claims, and it's a defense tactic that works (see O.J. Simpson for an example).

    For example, can the prosecution prove he wasn't washed in some way prior to evidence collection, given at that time the body was not being treated in the exact same manner as a clear cut homicide victim?

    Not saying it'll work, saying the Defense will try to make it work. I've said I think Zimmerman is going down hard, regardless of if he did it or not. The Mob will simply not accept it any other way.

    Quote Originally Posted by long island leprechaun View Post
    I'm not saying it proves anything other than that it shows, along with the phone call, the Martin was engaged in ordinary and non-suspicious behavior
    Really? Posession of a Coke and Some Skittles (tm) eliminates any possabillity of wrongdoing on teh part of the posessor?

    An interesting if unusual theory.

    If I'm on the jury, I'm going to ask: what was Martin up to? What would lead Zimmerman to think he is suspicious or up to trouble? One of the issues here is Zimmerman's intent. Was he responding in a reasonable way to a threat, or was he profiling and stalking with intent to do harm... that's what the prosecutor appears to be heading toward.
    Martin was "up to" walking through a neihborhood he did not live in and was seen (per Zimmerman) looking into homes from on their property.

    Zimmerman felt it was suspicious because of a recent number of home burglaries.

    Zimmerman will argue he followed Martin to see what he was doing, given A and B above.

    Again, not saying the jury will buy any of it (I'd bet they don't as I said), but the defense case couldn't be more clear cut. Neighborhood watchman sees suspiciosu youth, calls it in, follows youth, gets jumped/confronted by youth, words exchanged, youth hits Zimmerman and starts beating him up (nose injury, back of head injury, no facial injuries to Martin (?)), and Zimmerman, feeling his life was then in danger, pulls his gun and shoots youth, probably not even with a clear intent to kill, but an intent to cause youth to stop hitting him (i.e. panic shot that could just as easily hit Martin in the shoulder).

    It's an absolutely realsitic scenario, and given the lack of evidence and witnesses, would create an unquestionable reasonable doubt issue. Still, I think the Jury (liek many here) simply want the racist hatemonger gun obsessed wanna-be-cop wanna-be-batman hung for his evil crime of "profiling".
    Last edited by Churchill; 06-25-2013 at 10:24 AM.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    Really? Posession of a Coke and Some Skittles (tm) eliminates any possabillity of wrongdoing on teh part of the posessor?

    An interesting if unusual theory.
    I think the point there is that, if you were planning to case and rob homes, you probably wouldn't make a pit stop at a convenience store and/or be carrying anything that could encumber your mission and escape.

    I don't buy it, but its a valid observance IMO.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by long island leprechaun View Post
    Nose not broken. Minor lacerations on the back of the head. No neurological sequelae. Wanted note to go back to work next day. Hmmm. Witnesses to various parts of the altercation (not just Zimmerman's word). No blood on Martin's hands. No Martin DNA on gun Zimmerman claims he grabbed. Inconsistent, contradictory accounts by Zimmerman. Martin on phone with girl until approached by Zimmerman in the rain (could be why he wore his hoodie?), not the actions of a guy looking for trouble. Carrying a bottle of soda and Skittles he just bought... not the sign of somebody looking for trouble. Zimmerman traveling with a bullet live in the chamber of his gun, his intent established by his comments to dispatcher... all bad.
    http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/16/justic...-teen-shooting

    A medical report by George Zimmerman's family doctor shows the neighborhood watch volunteer was diagnosed with a fractured nose, two black eyes and two lacerations on the back of the head after his fatal confrontation with Trayvon Martin.

    The medical exam, which was taken a day after Zimmerman's February 26 altercation with the unarmed 17-year-old, says Zimmerman suffered a "closed fracture" of his nose, according to two sources who have detailed knowledge of the investigation.
    Granted its the family doctor.... but its being reported his nose was fractured.

  9. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonhomme Richard View Post
    It's going to be massively hard to prove either argument. It was dark, there was no one else out there. Zimmerman is going to walk.
    Maybe the old man will call in favors?

  10. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    Is there a NP Report saying his nose was unbroken and undamaged? I was unaware of that evidence, so apologies.

    With that said, his nose clearly appearts damaged in the photographic evidence.



    I'm not arguing anything. I'm stating that improper handling of evidence (specificly the body) is a route the Defense will take to lay our reasonable doubt vs. the prosecutions claims, and it's a defense tactic that works (see O.J. Simpson for an example).

    For example, can the prosecution prove he wasn't washed in some way prior to evidence collection, given at that time the body was not being treated in the exact same manner as a clear cut homicide victim?

    Not saying it'll work, saying the Defense will try to make it work. I've said I think Zimmerman is going down hard, regardless of if he did it or not. The Mob will simply not accept it any other way.



    Really? Posession of a Coke and Some Skittles (tm) eliminates any possabillity of wrongdoing on teh part of the posessor?

    An interesting if unusual theory.



    Martin was "up to" walking through a neihborhood he did not live in and was seen (per Zimmerman) looking into homes from on their property.

    Zimmerman felt it was suspicious because of a recent number of home burglaries.

    Zimmerman will argue he followed Martin to see what he was doing, given A and B above.

    Again, not saying the jury will buy any of it (I'd bet they don't as I said), but the defense case couldn't be more clear cut. Neighborhood watchman sees suspiciosu youth, calls it in, follows youth, gets jumped/confronted by youth, words exchanged, youth hits Zimmerman and starts beating him up (nose injury, back of head injury, no facial injuries to Martin (?)), and Zimmerman, feeling his life was then in danger, pulls his gun and shoots youth, probably not even with a clear intent to kill, but an intent to cause youth to stop hitting him (i.e. panic shot that could just as easily hit Martin in the shoulder).

    It's an absolutely realsitic scenario, and given the lack of evidence and witnesses, would create an unquestionable reasonable doubt issue. Still, I think the Jury (liek many here) simply want the racist hatemonger gun obsessed wanna-be-cop wanna-be-batman hung for his evil crime of "profiling".
    Fair enough about the last part. I'm just following the prosecutor's opening remarks. Alternative to your scenario: kid walking in neighborhood talking to friend on cell phone after stopping at store to get some soda and skittles. Stalked and profiled by Zimmerman who forces altercation, Martin in self-defense to threat. Zimmerman escalates after scuffle, pulls gun, and shoots Martin in the chest. Stalked, confronted without probable cause, engaged in threatening behavior to which Martin responded in self-defense, drew weapon that was live, shot Martin dead. Murder.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Brooklyn Jet View Post
    http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/16/justic...-teen-shooting

    Granted its the family doctor.... but its being reported his nose was fractured.
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/0...Killed-Trayvon

    Then again, the above says the family P.A. just took Zimmerman's word for it that the nose was broken, didn't take X-Rays, and wrote "likely" in the report. So make your own call on that one.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by long island leprechaun View Post
    Alternative to your scenario:

    Kid walking in neighborhood talking to friend on cell phone after stopping at store to get some soda and skittles. Stalked and profiled by Zimmerman who forces altercation, Martin in self-defense to threat. Zimmerman escalates after scuffle, pulls gun, and shoots Martin in the chest. Stalked, confronted without probable cause, engaged in threatening behavior to which Martin responded in self-defense, drew weapon that was live, shot Martin dead. Murder.
    Also a possabillity, no question. Less likely IMO (gun wielding murder-intent crazies being slightly less common that youths willing to beat up people who question or otherwise cross their path these days) but utterly possible.

    Point being, reasonable doubt. It could be 40$, 50% or even 60% probably that your tale is right. It needs to be 100%. otherwise reasonable doubt exists.

    In a fair unbiased trial, I see no way Zimmerman doesn't get off (based on the evidence I am aware of, caveat) not-guilty. I do not believe he will get a fair unbiased trial. Social pressure is far too great as is risk of civil unrest should he be found not-guilty.

  13. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonhomme Richard View Post
    It's going to be massively hard to prove either argument. It was dark, there was no one else out there. Zimmerman is going to walk.
    Prosecutor says there was at least one witness to the altercation who went back into the house before Martin was shot. Most crimes occur without any witnesses, but people are still convicted all the time. Zimmerman does not deny shooting Martin. It's going to be all about intent and justification of sufficient threat. You may be right in the end. I'm waiting to hear how that dodo for the defense presents his case. Please, no more knock-knock jokes.

  14. #234
    Fish, this why I wrote "ACCORDING TO". I'd be shocked if rain washes away all blood and DNA off of a person, but who knows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    Claims the Government cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt, because Zimmerman was not transported to the Hospital as he was told (by officers) he would be at the time of the shooting (the Defense claim).



    Improperly treated evidence (no bagging of the victims hands for example) means the Prosecution would be unable to prove beyodn areasonable doubt that evidence was not simply brushed off or washed away as Martin's body was transported and beyond.



    Prosecution was a clear victor in day 1, if the media can be believed, aye.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    Still, I think the Jury (liek many here) simply want the racist hatemonger gun obsessed wanna-be-cop wanna-be-batman hung for his evil crime of "profiling".
    I thought the "evil crime" of profiling is illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonhomme Richard View Post
    It's going to be massively hard to prove either argument. It was dark, there was no one else out there. Zimmerman is going to walk.
    If he does, he'll be looking over his shoulder for the rest of his life.

    But in my opinion, I don't think he will walk. But what do I know? I'm not a lawyer and I don't tell Knock-Knock jokes either.



    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    The single most over-reported, utterly irrevevant evidence of the entire tragic affair.

    What, exactly, does "skittles and soda" prove that it is required to be repeated so often?

    I think it's only to illustrate that Martin was not armed. And that this is all he had on his person.

    And it was Iced Tea, not soda.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    The single most over-reported, utterly irrevevant evidence of the entire tragic affair.

    What, exactly, does "skittles and soda" prove that it is required to be repeated so often?
    It humanizes the victim, he went to simply buy something to drink and Skittles for his friend and he never made it back.

    People like Palmetto would be screaming "WHY WAS THIS KID IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD".

  17. #237
    Without Zimmerman taking the stand and convincing the jury that he feared for his life I can't see how he isn't convicted. This is going to come down to his testimony under oath and cross.

    How can you claim feared for life, stand your ground and not testify when you were the only armed man and a 16 year old is shot dead by you at point blank range? This is going to come down to him being believable.

  18. #238
    How can you claim feared for life, stand your ground and not testify when you were the only armed man and a 16 year old is shot dead by you at point blank range?
    As the Judge said in the beginning, the Defendants decision to testify or not should not under any circusmatnces be taken by the Jury as a sign of guilt or other intent.

    Also, Martin was 17, a few inches taller, and considerably stronger, than Zimmerman. Why the consistent misinformation rgarding Martin's size and physical capabillities?

    This is going to come down to him being believable.
    It should come down to evidence and reasonable doubt or not.

    If it comes down to what some partial witness "thinks" they saw, or if Zimmerman is or is not a flat derp on the stand, then IMO thats a poor application of Justice.

  19. #239
    According to the Prosecutor, Martin weighed 158 lbs and Zimmerman had been utilizing MMA training for a year and half and outweighed him.


    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    As the Judge said in the beginning, the Defendants decision to testify or not should not under any circusmatnces be taken by the Jury as a sign of guilt or other intent.

    Also, Martin was 17, a few inches taller, and considerably stronger, than Zimmerman. Why the consistent misinformation rgarding Martin's size and physical capabillities?



    It should come down to evidence and reasonable doubt or not.

    If it comes down to what some partial witness "thinks" they saw, or if Zimmerman is or is not a flat derp on the stand, then IMO thats a poor application of Justice.
    Last edited by cr726; 06-25-2013 at 12:58 PM.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by cr726 View Post
    According to the Prosecutor, Martin weighed 158 lbs and Zimmerman had been utilizing MMA training for a year and half and outweighed him.
    How much would you guess a 17 year, 6'+ tall old Middle Linebacker might weigh?

    Even as skinny as he looks in some pics, I'd put him over 150 pounds easy.

    But clearly this issue will be one (of many) contested, aye.

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