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Thread: Kraft: Putin stole Bowl ring

  1. #81
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    guido had absolutely twisted himself into a pretzel with his passionate, ardent and deflective defense of what was obviously the worst cheating scandal in sports history and, in addition, a cover up cooked up with a rookie commissioner who got that job primarily through the pushing and shoving by that very team's owner


    a regular Johnny Cockroach in his defense of the indefensible

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by sg3 View Post
    Shats fans have to continue to deny and defend the heinous conduct of their franchise...


    after all

    Traded Babe Ruth for cash to finance a flop Broadway show

    Cheered Rosie Ruiz to the finish line

    and

    Still denying the most heinous cheating scandal in the history of American Professional Sports
    Much bigger than that Black Sox thing.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by EM31 View Post
    Ah Guido... Just how good are their "good names" really? I would suggest to you that everyone involved in this decade long episode has foregone any claims that their characters were being impugned.

    Which does not belong and why?

    • Grassy Knoll Coverup
    • Fake NASA moon landing
    • Aliens built the pyramids
    • Government building secret underground cities
    • NFL commissioner colludes with franchise to cover up extent of the systemic decade-long cheating by the New England Patriots

    Of course there was a cover-up. The evidence was destroyed to avoid future lawsuits. if your team knows what is coming and the other team does not know that your team knows then the risk of player injury goes through the roof. The lawyers would have dragged everyone into a courtroom on that issue alone. Roger Goodell was in containment mode not in punishment mode.

    Whether it led to championships or not, who knows but I do know that Belichick knew it was against the rules and yet they accepted the risks to carry on doing it. That means that the mad professor absolutely felt it was conferring benefit on his team.

    Period.

    There is no reasonable way to dispute such a conclusion.

    But by all means carry on with your moon landing references as if that somehow washes away the very real stain from garden variety cheating.
    Look, I have no delusion that I have the ability to kick away the crutch of yours, and so many other Jets fans, who use spygate as their binky to soothe away 10 years of dominance, but I'll make the following 2 points anyway.

    1) No one has yet been able to explain how the Pats could logistically use the film to their advantage during the game, assuming that DCs NEVER changed signals FROM YEAR to YEAR (when in reality they switch game to game, and even qtr. to qtr.

    2) How does the fact that the camera was located 40 yards from a LEGAL location, make Spygate the worst cheating scandal in the history of sport, even eclipsing the Chi. Black Sox scandal? You want to ignore that the filming itself was 100% legal, but they were punished for doing it on the sideline in plain view. That's some egregious 40 yards.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuidoYaztremski View Post
    Look, I have no delusion that I have the ability to kick away the crutch of yours, and so many other Jets fans, who use spygate as their binky to soothe away 10 years of dominance, but I'll make the following 2 points anyway.

    1) No one has yet been able to explain how the Pats could logistically use the film to their advantage during the game, assuming that DCs NEVER changed signals FROM YEAR to YEAR (when in reality they switch game to game, and even qtr. to qtr.

    2) How does the fact that the camera was located 40 yards from a LEGAL location, make Spygate the worst cheating scandal in the history of sport, even eclipsing the Chi. Black Sox scandal? You want to ignore that the filming itself was 100% legal, but they were punished for doing it on the sideline in plain view. That's some egregious 40 yards.

    You would have been a great P.R. person for the Nixon Administration....

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuidoYaztremski View Post
    Look, I have no delusion that I have the ability to kick away the crutch of yours, and so many other Jets fans, who use spygate as their binky to soothe away 10 years of dominance, but I'll make the following 2 points anyway.

    1) No one has yet been able to explain how the Pats could logistically use the film to their advantage during the game, assuming that DCs NEVER changed signals FROM YEAR to YEAR (when in reality they switch game to game, and even qtr. to qtr.

    2) How does the fact that the camera was located 40 yards from a LEGAL location, make Spygate the worst cheating scandal in the history of sport, even eclipsing the Chi. Black Sox scandal? You want to ignore that the filming itself was 100% legal, but they were punished for doing it on the sideline in plain view. That's some egregious 40 yards.
    First of all none of this is a "crutch" it really isn't. If the Patriots had not won those trophies there was no way that the Jets would had any of them. This is not about excusing the Jets from being mediocre to poor during that time. I have no problem admitting to deriving pleasure from p1ssing in your Wheaties

    I think we all know that signal rotation is really not as frequent as you would like to claim here and that even if it were, the rotation still would be within a fairly small number of choices otherwise there would simply be too much chance of errors in communication. If you have film on the opponents and you know ALL of the three or four different signal schemes that they use. If you are getting a real-time feed of today's signal scheme or even the signal scheme in use this half then you can pretty much figure out what the signals mean in real time.

    This is why a film library and game day taping are both crucial to this scheme and where it is substantially different than the more traditional using of your eyeballs to try and steal signals.

    Finally and I have asked this very simple question many many times and I never got an answer from a Patriots fan other than flat out evasions. I have asked it here in this thread but I will give you the courtesy of doing so again.

    If Bill Belichick really is a "football genius" and I agree that he probably is just that... If Bill Belichick knew that this behavior was against league rules and clearly he did know that because of the way that the whole activity was kept secret.... Then why in the flying f^ck did he take the risk of continuing to do it for the better part of a decade unless he felt it was giving his team an edge?

    To me the answer is clear. he knew it was against the rules yet it gave his team a significant edge so he ran the risk of cheating in the hopes that (a) they would never get found out and/or (b) if they were found out that he could get away with the "everybody does it" excuse even though none of the 31 other teams have ever been found guilty of doing what your team did.
    Last edited by EM31; 06-17-2013 at 01:18 PM.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sourceworx View Post
    You would have been a great P.R. person for the Nixon Administration....
    Or

    Saddam Hussein

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by EM31 View Post
    First of all none of this is a "crutch" it really isn't. If the Patriots had not won those trophies there was no way that the Jets would had any of them. This is not about excusing the Jets from being mediocre to poor during that time.

    I think we all know that signal rotation is really not as frequent as you would like to claim here and that even if it were, the rotation still would be within a fairly small number of choices otherwise there would simply be too much chance of errors in communication. If you have film on the opponents and you know ALL of the three or four different signal schemes that they use. If you are getting a real-time feed of today's signal scheme or even the signal scheme in use this half then you can pretty much figure out what the signals mean in real time.

    This is why a film library and game day taping are both crucial to this scheme and where it is substantially different than the more traditional using of your eyeballs to try and steal signals.

    Finally and I have asked this very simple question many many times and I never got an answer from a Patriots fan other than flat out evasions. I have asked it here in this thread but I will give you the courtesy of doing so again.

    If Bill Belichick really is a "football genius" and I agree that he probably is just that... If Bill Belichick knew that this behavior was against league rules and clearly he did know that because of the way that the whole activity was kept secret.... Then why in the flying f^ck did he take the risk of continuing to do it for the better part of a decade unless he felt it was giving his team an edge?

    To me the answer is clear. he knew it was against the rules yet it gave his team a significant edge so he ran the risk of cheating in the hopes that (a) they would never get found out and/or (b) if they were found out that he could get away with the "everybody does it" excuse even though none of the 31 other teams have ever been found guilty of doing what your team did.
    Kudos for a more rational response, albeit totally misguided, than is typical. As I said, I have no delusions that I can change anyone's mind, but I'll give you a courtesy of an answer, and then let the mindless childish haters have their fun at my expense.

    First, you're giving way too much credit to the Pat's Black Ops department to claim that they filmed in the first half. Then during a 12 minute halftime. decoding which of several signal sets were being used that game. Cross checking 30 minutes of game film with their "library" (which one must assume they built up over several years as many teams they only played on a 4 year rotation) and then, were somehow able to relay the plays to Brady's headset between the time the defense's play was signaled in and the headset communication is cut off. of course, this is complicated by the fact that 2 or 3 signal callers were usually used on the sidelines to prevent such an unlikely occurrence. It just doesn't add up. I submit Occam's Razor certainly applies to such a convoluted thoughts and scheme.

    As to why he did it? First, you say he kept it secret. How? It was done in the open by a uniformed Patriot's employee. It could have EASILY been kept secret by doing it from the stands or from a coach's booth. He's on record saying he did it because it was the efficient way to do it, as opposed to other teams who film games legally from the approved locations. His interpretation of reading the rules allowed for it, as long as the film wasn't used in-game. Read the rules, he may have a point, I can't say. They REQUIRE filming, btw.

    As to why no one has ever been fined for the same thing? Because the NFL is a good old boys network and when it was found out, like when the Jets were caught filming the Pats from the sideline, teams just tell the other to knock it off. In this case, Ratgini, butt-hurt form his parting ways with Bill, got the league involved. Coaches knew it, and were often seen waving to the camera in the Walsh tapes, which were available in total to any press member who wanted to sit through them. A fact conveniently ignored by the conspiracy theorists. Several coaches have admitted to doing the same thing. So to say it was ONLY the Pats, or it's the "everybody Does it defense", is disingenuous. But to admit the above is to remove the binky. Doesn't matter if the Jets sucked during that time anyway. Their bitter rival to the north has been lording over them with undreamed of success for over a decade now. I

    'll take 3-5 in the SB, 2 of those games post-spygate.
    Last edited by GuidoYaztremski; 06-17-2013 at 01:20 PM.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuidoYaztremski View Post
    Any reasonable person would laugh at that "book". The author has already been convicted of one fraud before he wrote it. Of course people involved refused to speak with a conspiracy theorist looking out to make a quick buck off their good names.

    There's books on The Grassy Knoll 'coverup', the fake NASA moon landing, the Aliens built the Pyramids, and The Government is building Secret Underground Cities. I suppose you believe all of those book, too?
    And the HC discussed stole money from a dying Hess and then turned around an was illegally contacted by Kraft.

    So we should trust these guys over others because why? Being found guilty here is acceptable when it fits your tired and stupid attempts to defend the cheating duo.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuidoYaztremski View Post
    Kudos for a more rational response, albeit totally misguided, than is typical. As I said, I have no delusions that I can change anyone's mind, but I'll give you a courtesy of an answer, and then let the mindless childish haters have their fun at my expense.

    First, you're giving way too much credit to the Pat's Black Ops department to claim that they filmed in the first half. Then during a 12 minute halftime. decoding which of several signal sets were being used that game. Cross checking 30 minutes of game film with their "library" (which one must assume they built up over several years as many teams they only played on a 4 year rotation) and then, were somehow able to relay the plays to Brady's headset between the time the defense's play was signaled in and the headset communication is cut off. of course, this is complicated by the fact that 2 or 3 signal callers were usually used on the sidelines to prevent such an unlikely occurrence. It just doesn't add up. I submit Occam's Razor certainly applies to such a convoluted thoughts and scheme.

    As to why he did it? First, you say he kept it secret. How? It was done in the open by a uniformed Patriot's employee. It could have EASILY been kept secret by doing it from the stands or from a coach's booth. He's on record saying he did it because it was the efficient way to do it, as opposed to other teams who film games legally from the approved locations. His interpretation of reading the rules allowed for it, as long as the film wasn't used in-game. Read the rules, he may have a point, I can't say. They REQUIRE filming, btw.

    As to why no one has ever been fined for the same thing? Because the NFL is a good old boys network and when it was found out, like when the Jets were caught filming the Pats from the sideline, teams just tell the other to knock it off. In this case, Ratgini, butt-hurt form his parting ways with Bill, got the league involved. Coaches knew it, and several have admitted to doing the same thing. So to say it was ONLY the Pats, or it's the "everybody Does it defense", is disingenuous. But to admit the above is to remove the binky. Doesn't matter if the Jets sucked during that time anyway. Their bitter rival to the north has been lording over them with undreamed of success for over a decade now. I

    'll take 3-5 in the SB, 2 of those games post-spygate.
    Now now. Just because the film library may be incomplete on ALL 31 of the other teams does not mean that the effort was not being made to make it as complete as possible. Yes there are 31 other teams but you are only going to be playing one of them this week. Obviously you go to your library before that game to refresh you recollection about which 3 or four different signalling schemes that they rotate around. No, you are not trying to map signals to 120 possible patterns you are trying to map it to one of three or four.

    Given the set up I have already described it is not clear that the cheating team will always need signal analysis in real time. They may recognize the scheme right off the bat. Also, the technology to film and stream those signals elsewhere in real time is practically consumer level electronics at this point so the idea that the Patriots had to have been waiting until half time to start analyzing at the collected data points is weak.

    It was secret because it was secret. The people who were doing it were told not to talk about it. Look, once you apply methodical use for sophisticated technology to a practice that has supposedly been done "by hand" for decades, you fundamentally change that behavior into something different. It is perfectly legal to watch a dealer shuffle cards in a casino but try to take a camera into a casino and record a dealer shuffle and see how far your get if you don't believe me. Watching a shuffle and recording a shuffle are two completely different things.

    Despite the tortured nature of the logic in your defense we both know that you understand this.

    The NFL thinks so too by the way which is why they made one practice against the rules. Very specifically against the rules. Bill Belichick understands this since he is the football genius who understands everything about where to squeeze competitive advantage from the rules. So he understood the rules and yet choose to systematically break the rules. Fair enough but let's not pretend that he took such a risk for no benefit to his football team because it should be offensive to your sense of rational probability that anyone would do such a thing let alone such an acknowledged "genius".

    Occam's Razor says that from any given set of facts that the simplest solution that fits all of those facts is probably the correct one. I submit that the simplest solution was that they knew what they were doing, they are not stupid. They did it because it gave them an edge, again because they are not stupid and finally the were willing to take the risk because really did not think they were going to be caught.
    Last edited by EM31; 06-17-2013 at 01:45 PM.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jet Nut View Post
    And the HC discussed stole money from a dying Hess and then turned around an was illegally contacted by Kraft.

    So we should trust these guys over others because why? Being found guilty here is acceptable when it fits your tired and stupid attempts to defend the cheating duo.
    While the Hess episode is Cheesy let's do try to keep him on topic.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by EM31 View Post
    Now now. Just because the film library may be incomplete on ALL 31 of the other teams does not mean that the effort was not being made to make it as complete as possible. Yes there are 31 other teams but you are only going to be playing one of them this week. Obviously you go to your library before that game to refresh you recollection about which 3 or four different signalling schemes that they rotate around. No, you are not trying to map signals to 120 possible patterns you are trying to map it to one of three or four.

    Given the set up I have already described it is not clear that the cheating team will always need signal analysis in real time. They may recognize the scheme right off the bat. Also, the technology to film and stream those signals elsewhere in real time is practically consumer level electronics at this point so the idea that the Patriots had to have been waiting until half time to start analyzing at the collected data points is weak.

    It was secret because it was secret. The people who were doing it were told not to talk about it. Look, once you apply methodical use for sophisticated technology to a practice that has supposedly been done "by hand" for decades, you fundamentally change that behavior into something different. It is perfectly legal to watch a dealer shuffle cards in a casino but try to take a camera into a casino and record a dealer shuffle and see how far your get if you don't believe me. Watching a shuffle and recording a shuffle are two completely different things.

    Despite the tortured nature of the logic in your defense we both know that you understand this.

    The NFL thinks so too by the way which is why they made one practice against the rules. Very specifically against the rules. Bill Belichick understands this since he is the football genius who understands everything about where to squeeze competitive advantage from the rules. So he understood the rules and yet choose to systematically break the rules. Fair enough but let's not pretend that he took such a risk for no benefit to his football because it should be offensive to your sense of rational probability that anyone would do such a thing let alone such an acknowledged "genius".

    Occam's Razor says that from any given set of facts that the simplest solution that fits all of those facts is probably the correct one. I submit that the simplest solution was that they knew what they were doing, they are not stupid. They did it because it gave them an edge, again because they are not stupid and finally the were willing to take the risk because really did not think they were going to be caught.
    This is a waste of time. You're arguing with someone who claims there wasn't a coverup because Jay Glazer had and showed the tape.

    jay Glazer, who has contracts to train players leaving himself to be scrutinized by all?

    Who had a copy of 1 tape of 1 game. OK.

  12. #92
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    It's like arguing the OJ case with Johnnie Cochrane. The entire planet knew he was guilty, but his Guido BaghdadBobski spun everything into a pretzel and got a murderer freed

  13. #93
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    "He actually said, 'Spygate – that was practice, that was coached, that was worked on,' " Fox Sports' Jay Glazer reported

    Who is he --------------> Josh McDaniel after he got caught taping a 49ers walkthrough as headcoach of the Broncos

  14. #94
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    The bank robber is willing to risk being caught on the roof of a bank only if he believes that there is money in the bank that counterbalances the risk.s that he is taking

    Bill Belichick is not a fool.

    He would not risk the downside consequences of Spygate (and other related black ops) unless he believed that there were very real and very tangible benefits to be gained from that.

    Risk/Reward

    Risk/Reward

    He

    Is

    Not

    An

    Idiot.

    Yet some Pats fans main line of defense rests upon the notion that Belichick is exactly that kind of idiot.

  15. #95
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    Belichick is smart.

    He know how much he can get away with. He's always looking for an edge.

    I wouldn't make a business deal with him but I'm glad he's my team's coach.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuidoYaztremski View Post
    Look, I have no delusion that I have the ability to kick away the crutch of yours, and so many other Jets fans, who use spygate as their binky to soothe away 10 years of dominance
    You think way, way too highly of yourself. It's funny, in a pathetic sort of way.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by FF2® View Post
    Belichick is smart.

    He know how much he can get away with. He's always looking for an edge.

    I wouldn't make a business deal with him but I'm glad he's my team's coach.
    Wicked smaht

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by EM31 View Post
    Wicked smaht
    Exactly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuidoYaztremski View Post
    Look, I have no delusion that I have the ability to kick away the crutch of yours, and so many other Jets fans, who use spygate as their binky to soothe away 10 years of dominance, but I'll make the following 2 points anyway.

    1) No one has yet been able to explain how the Pats could logistically use the film to their advantage during the game, assuming that DCs NEVER changed signals FROM YEAR to YEAR (when in reality they switch game to game, and even qtr. to qtr.

    2) How does the fact that the camera was located 40 yards from a LEGAL location, make Spygate the worst cheating scandal in the history of sport, even eclipsing the Chi. Black Sox scandal? You want to ignore that the filming itself was 100% legal, but they were punished for doing it on the sideline in plain view. That's some egregious 40 yards.
    You spelt Yaztrimskie wrong......

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    Quote Originally Posted by sg3 View Post
    It's like arguing the OJ case with Johnnie Cochrane. The entire planet knew he was guilty, but his Guido BaghdadBobski spun everything into a pretzel and got a murderer freed
    That's the answer! Krafty should spring OJ and send him to go retrieve the ring. You know The Juice goes all out to retrieve football rings.

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