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Thread: PSL/Club Seat Default Letter

  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by sg3 View Post
    funny stuff

    everytime somebody starts a stadium thread, the same old tired rehash returns


    lock

    dump


    the stadium is built

    55000 PSL holders are in their seats and mostly happy

    no more stupid stadium threads, thank you
    Then ignore it. You sound like Baghdad Bob.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by sg3 View Post
    Another stadium thread and here comes Queens Zippy the Chimp right on cue blaming everything including the Iraq Wae on that evil Woody who didn't build a stadium in the car salvage dumps of Corona.

    Quick question Zip... speaking of clusterf***ks....have they been able to remove those Mafia body dumping salvage yards yet or would the Jets still be waiting for that to happen so they could begin building Queens Zipcode Fan Stadium within walking distance of your tenament???
    What is a zippy anyway? Is it an insult or something

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by sg3 View Post
    55000 PSL holders are in their seats and mostly happy
    why, do their seats face away from the field?

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by PJC331 View Post
    What is a zippy anyway? Is it an insult or something
    "zippy" = zip code obsession

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Traitor Jay & the Woodies View Post
    Agree on your clusterf*ck assessment but disagree on the Jets not having a choice.

    If the reason you're financing PSLs is because you think you'll have a half empty stadium if you don't - you should automatically know your pricing does not reflect demand for the product.
    The only problem was not just gauging the demand for their price structure. Of course they priced it too high and lowering certain prices did push sales a bit but that was not their main problem. The Jets knew they had a problem after the total failure of the coaches club auction and the poor rollout of regular psl and club tickets.

    Before the stadium opened the Jets were coming off a surprising playoff performance and had a glamorous up and coming qb. Offering easy financing sold a lot of seats they never would have. Certain fans who were not looking at the longterm picture with the financing offered looked at a psl purchase as a relatively pain free one for and up and coming team.

    The fatal flaw was judging the demand for a shared stadium in the Meadowlands. Prices of psl's have dropped so drastically on the secondary market and they're still not selling - hence my view of the pricing not being the key. The only way the Jets have been able to avoid blackouts even when they were good was doing something they said they would never do - dumping single game tickets on the secondary market or buying them up themselves.

    IMO a NY Jet stadium in the Big Apple would have had none of these problems - even with higher prices then the Jets currently have.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Queens Jet Fan View Post
    The only problem was not just gauging the demand for their price structure. Of course they priced it too high and lowering certain prices did push sales a bit but that was not their main problem. The Jets knew they had a problem after the total failure of the coaches club auction and the poor rollout of regular psl and club tickets.

    Before the stadium opened the Jets were coming off a surprising playoff performance and had a glamorous up and coming qb. Offering easy financing sold a lot of seats they never would have. Certain fans who were not looking at the longterm picture with the financing offered looked at a psl purchase as a relatively pain free one for and up and coming team.

    The fatal flaw was judging the demand for a shared stadium in the Meadowlands. Prices of psl's have dropped so drastically on the secondary market and they're still not selling - hence my view of the pricing not being the key. The only way the Jets have been able to avoid blackouts even when they were good was doing something they said they would never do - dumping single game tickets on the secondary market or buying them up themselves.

    IMO a NY Jet stadium in the Big Apple would have had none of these problems - even with higher prices then the Jets currently have.
    The Big Apple would also have had major problems. A lot of NJ fans would have jumped ship. I even knew a guy who used to sit next to me in the old place he lived in NY and said he would have dropped his seats if the Jets went to NY. You also have to figure construction costs would have been higher and PSL prices would have doubled.

    While I do not know the amount of unsold seats or defaulted PSLs I can tell you when I looked at the upper deck relocation map there were plenty of seats in any price range you wanted. Most of the seats upstairs are over priced.

    In certain PSL areas of the stadium some people bought for their own personal use and they are content. They knew what they were getting themselves into and most likely paid their PSLs in full.

    There are others who bought hoping friends would buy a few games or they could sell on the secondary market. Last year was a tough year if you relied on friends or the secondary market. No one was paying $125 to see the Jets vs Texans game if you didn't sell that game back in August. The same for Arizona, San Diego, and Thanksgiving Night.

    Even worse was I know a couple amateur brokers who bought seats expecting to make a killing and financed their PSLs. They are the ones who took it to the chin because a $4k mezzanine A PSL if you pay $375 a year in financing charges and $1,250 for your seat you are paying $1,625. If you are lucky you will sell your two preseason games and get $125 total which means off the 8 regular season games you need to make $1,500 or $187.50 per game to break even. Those are the ones who will most likely default on their PSLs.

    I don't really feel bad for the last two groups of PSL purchasers. You have to know what you are getting yourself into ahead of time. Personally I don't buy into this negative publicity crap if the Jets sue them. You signed a contract you should be held responsible to it.

  7. #87
    It is so bad, that a scalper always had the seats in section 144 row 1, seats 1-13, 143 Row 2 seats 11,12,10,9 and 144 Row 2 seats 1-13 and he owned like 25 in a row straight across row 3 section 144/143 and at least 15 in row 4I always see them advertised on ebay, stub hub, nfl ticket exchange you name it. Even on opposing teams fan sites for away game deals. Always big blocks of other players teams there. Basically 50 opposing fans could sit together in first four rows. Think about it, a professional scalper, strategiically picked the lowest rows available, best ticket price on sideline and the lowest cost psls and did it on visitiors side so if Jets stink he has a new crowd every week. Opening day of stadium like 50 Ravens fans in seats they all paid triple face. Talked to oen Raven fan and they said all 50 came on a bus together and I guess scalper planed it to have a bus load of tickets on visitors side low row together, won PSL gold of the SAR variety. Then it became double face and now it is spiraling towards face with PSL fee he is losing money ever game . Guy now has every PSL for sale all over the place

    Every PSL except his 13 in row one section 144 is for sale at a loss. He already sold several at a loss. So I figure guy is deperate. So one day I see he has it on ebay with his email so I figure what the heck I will contact him and low ball him.

    Turns out he is only selling PSLs given his payments to date he is above water or less than $500 underwater. Tells me he will eat a bit of loss not to piss off Jets too much. Then tells me to my shock he not only has the 144/143 corner but has a whole bunch by where Jets come out and a few other LGL/LSL. All together he has 250 PSLs. Then for fun I say if you are walking away how about I give you $500 bucks. He goes I got them in a few LLCs, only the really good ones like 144 row one are in my primary LLC. He then says he is walking away from everything row three and up. But he is working with Jets to see if they will let him transfer balance to new people and he is willing to eat transfer fee or pay for season tickets while they find a new buyer. Jets cant get the money off him on all the seats.

    This was a two or three mail email thing a few months ago. It was shocking to me on several levels. First when Jets were assigning seats a scalper was able to grab 250 really good seats at once, screwing long term ticket holders. Newbie PSL salesmen looking for commission let scalpers buy blocks of PSLs in various phoney LLCs so they can sell them for a profit if thing work out or bail when they didn't Also think this led to the huge amount of PSLs flooding market.

    Jets may need to do what one team did with a failed PSL strategy. Basically wait till maybe year six after all five years are paid off and suspend all PSL sales and cancel remaining balances. Then do a massive PSL seat reallocation. Let folks with no balances pick first and let folks add up to double their seats. Then sell remaining bad PSL seats as season tickets with no PSL fees.

    Jets problem was compounded unlike Giants, by allowing zero down financing with long terms 15 years in a depreciating asset combined with allowing speculators and flippers buying on leverage without credit checks they created their own version of subprime loans.

    In retrospect. Jets should have only sold mainly to season ticket holders, did it with only 1-5 year terms at low interest rates and offered on the remaining PSLs, scalper cash only deals for the inferior seasts. And not got so greedy with stuff like Great Hall Club which Giants did not even try to do.

    Even more amazing Jets had a pretty good team in Fall 2009,2010 and 2011, a recovering economy and a bull market in stocks and still this fell apart.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jets337 View Post
    The Big Apple would also have had major problems. A lot of NJ fans would have jumped ship. I even knew a guy who used to sit next to me in the old place he lived in NY and said he would have dropped his seats if the Jets went to NY. You also have to figure construction costs would have been higher and PSL prices would have doubled.
    Not to rehash an old argument, but the guy who sat next you and the other NJ folks like him would have been replaced in a nano second by the guys and their kids who gave up their tickets because of the move to NJ in 1984. More Jets fans live east of the Hudson than west of it.

    Construction costs NY vs NJ is essentially the same.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Jets337 View Post
    The Big Apple would also have had major problems. A lot of NJ fans would have jumped ship. I even knew a guy who used to sit next to me in the old place he lived in NY and said he would have dropped his seats if the Jets went to NY. You also have to figure construction costs would have been higher and PSL prices would have doubled.
    Quote Originally Posted by Traitor Jay & the Woodies View Post
    Not to rehash an old argument, but the guy who sat next you and the other NJ folks like him would have been replaced in a nano second by the guys and their kids who gave up their tickets because of the move to NJ in 1984. More Jets fans live east of the Hudson than west of it.

    Construction costs NY vs NJ is essentially the same.
    So 337 are you telling me then that these super loyal NJ Jet fans are actually zip code fans and only go the games because it's convenient for them? Ouch. Thought that I was the only one

    Basically nearly everybody is a zip code fan. The fact is like Jay said there are many more Jet fans east of the Hudson then west of it.

    As far as higher PSL's go - that is such a fallacy that PSL's would have been higher in a solo stadium. The teams sell PSL's based on what the market can bear. The cost of the stadium has ZERO to do with a price of the PSL.

  10. #90
    Alkrotraz you sure do paint a bleak picture for the Jets. The sad thing is that so many of us predicted that this was going to happen, but the Jets were too stubborn and just displayed horrible business acumen.

    Also, wasn't one of the benefits of the new stadium supposed to be that it was supposed to get rid of the scalpers that were prevalent in GS?

    Such a clusterf'ck.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkrotraz View Post
    Thanks this is a hobby for me. I only own two PSLs I bought outright at get go and since I thought they were a bad investment but at same time I wanted them anyhow I hounded the Jets again and again and again till they gave me great seats which I plan on owning till they tear down stadium and never selling. I do find the whole think amazing. Selling all PSls in a section at same price is like selling all Stocks at same price. Imagine if NYSE sold Apple, Goldman, RiteAid and Crazy Eddie stock all at same price and then the uproar when folks try to sell and find out 95% of folks overpaid cause NYSE priced them all as if they were Google stock.

    The financing rate I heard was similar to rate Sclapers pay when they buy tickets in bulk. They dont mind paying 8% cause they buy a boat load of season tickets and sell them off over 3-6 months. But 8% over 15 years is crazy.

    I am off to Beach after lunch
    We bought rite aid stock late last year and its kicked gs and apple stock.

    We sold way to soon

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Queens Jet Fan View Post
    So 337 are you telling me then that these super loyal NJ Jet fans are actually zip code fans and only go the games because it's convenient for them? Ouch. Thought that I was the only one

    Basically nearly everybody is a zip code fan. The fact is like Jay said there are many more Jet fans east of the Hudson then west of it.

    As far as higher PSL's go - that is such a fallacy that PSL's would have been higher in a solo stadium. The teams sell PSL's based on what the market can bear. The cost of the stadium has ZERO to do with a price of the PSL.
    From the mid 1980s until 2008 there was a pretty long waiting list for season tickets. Prices were reasonable and New Jersey isn't a dump like NY.

    If tailgating was eliminated (would be nearly impossible in NYC) then a lot of fans even those from NY would have dropped. Who wants to take a train to see a football game?

    PSL prices and upper deck ticket prices killed the waiting list. It wasn't a westside stadium.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Jets337 View Post
    From the mid 1980s until 2008 there was a pretty long waiting list for season tickets. Prices were reasonable and New Jersey isn't a dump like NY.

    If tailgating was eliminated (would be nearly impossible in NYC) then a lot of fans even those from NY would have dropped. Who wants to take a train to see a football game?

    PSL prices and upper deck ticket prices killed the waiting list. It wasn't a westside stadium.
    Why did so many season ticket holders drop out after 2008? 2009 was still a cheap year in the old GS. They dropped out (myself included) because I knew I would not continue in the new stadium. There were no prices announced yet, but the game day experience had lost a lot of the luster for me and I did not enjoy the commute any more. I shlepped to the swamps for many years waiting for the Jets to return. When that wasn't happening I was done as a STHer - and it had nothing to do with prices of tickets or PSL's. I was not alone and the Jets basically went through their wait list before the new stadium even opened. That should have told you something right then. This was all so predictable.

    As far as tailgating in NYC goes. Haven't you heard of red cups?

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jets337 View Post
    From the mid 1980s until 2008 there was a pretty long waiting list for season tickets. Prices were reasonable and New Jersey isn't a dump like NY.

    If tailgating was eliminated (would be nearly impossible in NYC) then a lot of fans even those from NY would have dropped. Who wants to take a train to see a football game?

    PSL prices and upper deck ticket prices killed the waiting list. It wasn't a westside stadium.
    You have no idea what you're talking about, but the point is moot. The stadium is in NJ and apparently, not filled anyway.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Jets337 View Post
    From the mid 1980s until 2008 there was a pretty long waiting list for season tickets. Prices were reasonable and New Jersey isn't a dump like NY.

    If tailgating was eliminated (would be nearly impossible in NYC) then a lot of fans even those from NY would have dropped. Who wants to take a train to see a football game?

    PSL prices and upper deck ticket prices killed the waiting list. It wasn't a westside stadium.
    I agree with you. I think prices may not be the entire story, but I think they're 80%+ of the story.

    I remember talking about this years ago, too (again, the motivated searcher can look back on that epic thread). What were we paying in the old place at the end? $75/ticket? Or something around there? Now I'm paying $145/ticket. Old place I was top of lower level on the aisle at like the 5 yard line. Now I'm top of lower level 6 off the aisle at the 20. Plus there was the matter of that $20,000 one time fee I had to pay.

    I remember years ago thinking that was insane and how would anyone afford that? Even folks doing well - that's a lot of money to most folks.

    I think tons of people gave up the year before the new stadium due to the talk of PSLs. I remember all the talk in the lots and in the game in the last season. Dude in front of me kept saying he was a long time STH'er but was going "up there" next year due to the PSLs.

    I really think price flat out explains a vast majority of the problem, just like many (most?) of us speculated back when.

    I know some think the stadium is underwhelming. I agree it looks like an AC but for me at least my view is great, there's better food and beer options, and no bathroom lines. So the only problem for me is the parking/in/out, and that's not even that bad.

    I think the simple explanation - the prices nearly doubled from one year to the next PLUS there were big PSLs - is probably the correct one in this case.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornfed View Post

    I think the simple explanation - the prices nearly doubled from one year to the next PLUS there were big PSLs - is probably the correct one in this case.
    Price is a big factor, but it's not the only one. If it were, the Giants would have had and would continue to have, the same issues. Their prices doubled too.

    But they don't.

    Location matters. The Jets sharing a stadium in NJ with the Giants carried consequences.

  17. #97
    Not tech savvy enough to quote a few different posts so I'll sum them all up in here.

    After the 2008 season I can go by my own tailgate parties experience. After 2007 season I had a friend who had been buying two seats off a guy for years get called off the waiting list. He bought four season tickets in addition to the two he was buying. He wanted to stay in his current seats for the last two years but wanted four in his name for the new place.

    I also had another friend who had seats starting in 1998.

    PSL brochures went out and I was on page 19. I was the guy in a Jets chef hat with a quote about my 1991 seniority and how I wanted to stay in the upper deck and may not be able to with my seniority.

    In March of 2009 the Jets started to send out surveys of where did you want to sit and offered club seats. I remember the call I got from my rep at the time Ryan Thorman and I told him I wanted upper deck seats. He told me with my 1991 seniority I was "on the cusp" of getting into the upper deck and I would most likely have to buy a PSL and I should start to be prepared. I told him he was out of his mind and I wouldn't pay for one.

    My friend with 1998 seniority got a call saying the upper deck would be sold out by the time they got to him and the same with my friend with 2008 seniority. The guy with the 1998 seniority dropped his two seats and my friend dropped the four in his name and only paid for the two through the guy who's seats he had used for years.

    These were NJ guys with a 35 minute commute to the stadium. They were just angry with how the reps treated them on the phone and wouldn't pay if they were being booted out the following year. There were many others like this. Some guy was making a documentary on it. Location had nothing to do with it it was the price of the tickets.

    The prices in the upper deck jumped from $75-$85 a ticket to $95-$125 a ticket. The lower level end zones used to be $80 and they went to $120 with an originaly $5k PSL that was dropped to $2.5 k. The sidelines were around $105 for a friend of mine sitting in the lower level near Fireman Ed in the old place.

    When I was told I may not be able to sit in the uppers I knew I couldn't afford a PSL. I looked at the $1200 price at the time plus $375 a year in finance charges and $1575 from $750 that's more than double what I was paying. For a teacher looking to buy a condo I had to decide a condo or PSLs. 99% of you probably would have gone the same route as me and gone for the condo.

    The prices are what sent a lot of people away. I have a lot of friends in NJ and I'd say 30% of them dropped their season tickets after 2008 and an additional 10% dropped after 2009. Believe me no one in NJ was devastated about no NYC stadium. It was just hard to justify the price. For some people they don't care for others they do.

    As far as red cups in a NYC stadium. I go in at 8 am, set up tents, grills, flags, etc etc. Not able to do that in NYC and to just drink out of a red solo cup isn't my idea of fun. Despite losing seasons those of us in my tailgate party who have stayed around do it because of the tailgate. If that was taken away I'm confident 100% of us would be gone in my party.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Traitor Jay & the Woodies View Post
    Price is a big factor, but it's not the only one. If it were, the Giants would have had and would continue to have, the same issues. Their prices doubled too.

    But they don't.

    Location matters. The Jets sharing a stadium in NJ with the Giants carried consequences.
    I agree it's not the only one. Just the biggest one. Jets had a 10-12 year waiting list. Didn't the Giants have a 25+ year waiting list? I think the Giants had twice as many fans to go through. Plus - and I base this solely on anecdotal observations and stereotypes - doesn't the Giants' fan base skew a little older than the Jets? Their fan base probably has a little more money than our fan base.

  19. #99
    Not sure what some of you guys expected. You commit to the psls and now you're upset that the jets are demanding payment. Seems pretty standard.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jets337 View Post
    From the mid 1980s until 2008 there was a pretty long waiting list for season tickets. Prices were reasonable and New Jersey isn't a dump like NY.

    If tailgating was eliminated (would be nearly impossible in NYC) then a lot of fans even those from NY would have dropped. Who wants to take a train to see a football game?

    PSL prices and upper deck ticket prices killed the waiting list. It wasn't a westside stadium.
    We'll never know for sure, but I'm with Jay on this one. I really don't think a train is an impediment to football. I was in Chicago on game day once and a huge number of Bears fans came via the train. Plus every geographical sector of fan would have relatively easy access - you wouldn't have a "shunned" group like with the move to NJ.

    Hardly empirical evidence, but my father - a lifelong Giant STH and someone who had no love t all for the Jets, was excited about NYC football and would have considered getting tix for a WSS Jet team....

    For every Joiseyite that dropped out, there would be 4x ppl waiting to take the seat. And sponsor money would be very much available.

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