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Thread: Re-visiting Belichick's draft history

  1. #121
    The problem with this thread is the same problem the jets fans have -- constantly evaluating drafts based on star power, which they define by combine numbers, conference, and buzz. But the thing is, teams that win and win consistently are drafting for depth and coachability and development and value. Jets are so desperate to win and win now they'll sell the farm every year, wonder why they're in salary cap hell, and console themselves that other teams with consistently winning records, division titles, and super bowl victories "can't draft well."

    -Lifelong Jet Fan

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by McElroid View Post
    The problem with this thread is the same problem the jets fans have -- constantly evaluating drafts based on star power, which they define by combine numbers, conference, and buzz. But the thing is, teams that win and win consistently are drafting for depth and coachability and development and value. Jets are so desperate to win and win now they'll sell the farm every year, wonder why they're in salary cap hell, and console themselves that other teams with consistently winning records, division titles, and super bowl victories "can't draft well."

    -Lifelong Jet Fan
    Nice try, but no one is talking about this year's draft, and we're not talking about the Jet's drafts. So this is just you, ignorantly taking the opportunity to bash the Jets. We're talking about how Brady, and a good offensive line are on their own. The Pats can't win a SB without Pioli's players even though they have the best QB in the world, who just happened to be drafted in the 6th round. If they had a halfway decent defense they would have won at least 4 SBs over the last decade. What happened to the defensive genius?

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by NY's stepchild View Post
    Nice try, but no one is talking about this year's draft, and we're not talking about the Jet's drafts. So this is just you, ignorantly taking the opportunity to bash the Jets. We're talking about how Brady, and a good offensive line are on their own. The Pats can't win a SB without Pioli's players even though they have the best QB in the world, who just happened to be drafted in the 6th round. If they had a halfway decent defense they would have won at least 4 SBs over the last decade. What happened to the defensive genius?
    Not just me talking about it... I didn't post the original question.

    OP: "For years, many of us have killed Belichick's draft history and only recently have pats fans come to his defense pointing to two amazing draft picks. Gronk and Hernandez. Now that we see why teams passed on Hernandez and why some teams probably passed on Gronk, is it safe to destroy belichick once again for being an awful draft evaluator?"

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by NY's stepchild View Post
    Nice try, but no one is talking about this year's draft, and we're not talking about the Jet's drafts. So this is just you, ignorantly taking the opportunity to bash the Jets. We're talking about how Brady, and a good offensive line are on their own. The Pats can't win a SB without Pioli's players even though they have the best QB in the world, who just happened to be drafted in the 6th round. If they had a halfway decent defense they would have won at least 4 SBs over the last decade. What happened to the defensive genius?
    Except that both of their Super Bowl losses to the Giants were primarily on the offense, not the defense.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by ASG0531 View Post
    Except that both of their Super Bowl losses to the Giants were primarily on the offense, not the defense.
    +1. Justin Tuck made Logan Mankins look like the kids on the OL in Jadeveon Clowney's high school highlight package.

  6. #126
    Love this thread and its premise.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by NY's stepchild View Post
    Nice try, but no one is talking about this year's draft, and we're not talking about the Jet's drafts. So this is just you, ignorantly taking the opportunity to bash the Jets. We're talking about how Brady, and a good offensive line are on their own. The Pats can't win a SB without Pioli's players even though they have the best QB in the world, who just happened to be drafted in the 6th round. If they had a halfway decent defense they would have won at least 4 SBs over the last decade. What happened to the defensive genius?
    The logic in all of this is so backwards- it has essentially become "the Patriots haven't won a Superbowl in almost a decade and therefore their drafts must suck", with any attempts to explain their success explained away as because of Brady.

    Have the Patriots made some odd picks? Sure, if you consider Mel Kiper to be an authority on player rankings. In retrospect, have some of the risks the Patriots took backfired (Hernandez)? Of course. However, all things considered in terms of where they draft year in and year out, I'm hard pressed to think of a team that has drafted better over the past 4-5 years (maybe San Fran and Seattle but they have also had some top 10 picks mixed in there).

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by scottyM View Post
    The logic in all of this is so backwards- it has essentially become "the Patriots haven't won a Superbowl in almost a decade and therefore their drafts must suck", with any attempts to explain their success explained away as because of Brady.

    Have the Patriots made some odd picks? Sure, if you consider Mel Kiper to be an authority on player rankings. In retrospect, have some of the risks the Patriots took backfired (Hernandez)? Of course. However, all things considered in terms of where they draft year in and year out, I'm hard pressed to think of a team that has drafted better over the past 4-5 years (maybe San Fran and Seattle but they have also had some top 10 picks mixed in there).
    +1

    well said

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by scottyM View Post
    The logic in all of this is so backwards- it has essentially become "the Patriots haven't won a Superbowl in almost a decade and therefore their drafts must suck", with any attempts to explain their success explained away as because of Brady.

    Have the Patriots made some odd picks? Sure, if you consider Mel Kiper to be an authority on player rankings. In retrospect, have some of the risks the Patriots took backfired (Hernandez)? Of course. However, all things considered in terms of where they draft year in and year out, I'm hard pressed to think of a team that has drafted better over the past 4-5 years (maybe San Fran and Seattle but they have also had some top 10 picks mixed in there).
    In spite of having picks at the end of every round, the Pats have 32 players on their roster that were drafted after 2006 and 13 others who are still in the NFL on other teams. Many of those players are solid players.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by scottyM View Post
    The logic in all of this is so backwards- it has essentially become "the Patriots haven't won a Superbowl in almost a decade and therefore their drafts must suck", with any attempts to explain their success explained away as because of Brady.

    Have the Patriots made some odd picks? Sure, if you consider Mel Kiper to be an authority on player rankings. In retrospect, have some of the risks the Patriots took backfired (Hernandez)? Of course. However, all things considered in terms of where they draft year in and year out, I'm hard pressed to think of a team that has drafted better over the past 4-5 years (maybe San Fran and Seattle but they have also had some top 10 picks mixed in there).
    That's a load of b/s. How many picks have the Pats had during that time period. For several years Belicheat always traded out to acquire additional picks.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by jetssjumets View Post
    That's a load of b/s. How many picks have the Pats had during that time period. For several years Belicheat always traded out to acquire additional picks.
    What's your point? So what if they sometimes trade back. They start with the same number of draft picks as the 31 other teams.

    I think their track record over the last 4-5 years is pretty solid- especially in light of where they are slotted each year.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by #1Patriot View Post
    I'm sure you just totally forgot about Parcells calling the Jets, from his hotel room paid by the Patriots, while he was suppose to be coaching the Patriots in the SB and employed by the Patriots.
    Thats true but who gives a sh1t? He brought up Shula and tampering vs video Bill.

    Has nothing to do with this conversation. Wrong argument

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Jet Nut View Post
    Thats true but who gives a sh1t? He brought up Shula and tampering vs video Bill.

    Has nothing to do with this conversation. Wrong argument
    Nah, this was in response to this quote by you:

    Given that not only was Belichick cheating with the Pats and he only became HC of the Pats because they broke the rules and hired him illegally while employed by the Jets, not seeing your point. Its a pointless argument and not really interesting other than to try and water down the cheating that BB and the Pats org. has been guilty of.
    Who gives a **** about what Parcells did to the Pats? Let's care about what Belichick did to the Jets.
    Last edited by ASG0531; 06-30-2013 at 03:02 AM.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by NY's stepchild View Post
    Nice try, but no one is talking about this year's draft, and we're not talking about the Jet's drafts. So this is just you, ignorantly taking the opportunity to bash the Jets. We're talking about how Brady, and a good offensive line are on their own. The Pats can't win a SB without Pioli's players even though they have the best QB in the world, who just happened to be drafted in the 6th round. If they had a halfway decent defense they would have won at least 4 SBs over the last decade. What happened to the defensive genius?
    In spite of playing the fastest of any other offense in the NFL, allowing the other teams to run off more plays, Belichick's teams have given up less points than the Jets the last two years.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASG0531 View Post
    Except that both of their Super Bowl losses to the Giants were primarily on the offense, not the defense.
    So then is it Brady that can't win the big game, or Belicheck? Maybe I'm wrong.

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jet Nut View Post
    Thats true but who gives a sh1t? He brought up Shula and tampering vs video Bill.

    Has nothing to do with this conversation. Wrong argument
    Shula was another coach that couldn't any further than Rex with an all world QB, while Rex was doing it with a Sanchez.

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASG0531 View Post
    Nah, this was in response to this quote by you:



    Who gives a **** about what Parcells did to the Pats? Let's care about what Belichick did to the Jets.
    Try real slow for you. He tried to put Shula down...compared to BB...because the fins were found to have tampered when they hired him.

    The natural response by someone who thinks is how could that be something in BB's favor, how could that offset Spygate when the same happened in NE.

    Never mind that the discussion was Shula vs Belichick, Parcells has nothing to do with it. Or that a Pats fan didn't know a thing about the Shula tampering allegations. That it never really happened outside of Rozelles mind.

    Is this that hard to follow?

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by McElroid View Post
    The problem with this thread is the same problem the jets fans have -- constantly evaluating drafts based on star power, which they define by combine numbers, conference, and buzz. But the thing is, teams that win and win consistently are drafting for depth and coachability and development and value. Jets are so desperate to win and win now they'll sell the farm every year, wonder why they're in salary cap hell, and console themselves that other teams with consistently winning records, division titles, and super bowl victories "can't draft well."

    -Lifelong Jet Fan
    Well said

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by NY's stepchild View Post
    So then is it Brady that can't win the big game, or Belicheck? Maybe I'm wrong.
    It's difficult to keep up with the "who sucks" theory. Years ago, when the Brady vs. Peyton debate was rampant, Brady was trashed as nothing more than a "system" quarterback because he played for Belichick, and Peyton had no such advantage. Fast forward to today, and Belichick has always been a garbage coach with the best QB to ever grace the earth delivering wins for him.

    I dunno, who sucks? You tell me... somebody has to suck in this relationship.

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASG0531 View Post
    It's difficult to keep up with the "who sucks" theory. Years ago, when the Brady vs. Peyton debate was rampant, Brady was trashed as nothing more than a "system" quarterback because he played for Belichick, and Peyton had no such advantage. Fast forward to today, and Belichick has always been a garbage coach with the best QB to ever grace the earth delivering wins for him.

    I dunno, who sucks? You tell me... somebody has to suck in this relationship.
    Well Bellicheck is the HC, and Gm, and they can't win a SB. He spent a 6th round pick on the best QB in the NFL, who also has a team friendly contract. You tell me why they can't win.

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