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Thread: BR: Root Cause of Geno Dropping and QBs

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Dunnie View Post
    That's right , I forgot ... You were in all the war rooms ... Child please
    Mayock is that you?

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by DDNYjets View Post
    Mark was excellent in that playoff game and he made great decisions as well as some great throws including the TD to Holmes which was one of the best passes I have ever seen. We didn't put the game on his shoulders and didn't ask him to throw 40 times. Geno basically committed two turnovers with those safeties in the bowl game so that is a pretty significant difference.
    Mark was good in that game, but the defense really stepped up in that game too, giving him a better chance. I believe we had the opportunity to score when the INT was returned to like the 20 yard line, yet we missed the FG, when our offense didn't do anything.

    The second touchdown, to Edwards was also set up by that botched fake punt. It happened with a minute to go, inside the Pats 40. If they punt it away, and lets assume we get it at our 20, we most likely won't score there, and just go to half time at 7-3. The Holmes throw was magnificent and the catch was even better.

    But I don't think it was one of those games where Mark carried us by himself. It was the defense holding the vaunted Pats offense down, giving us a chance to mix our running game with our passing game. Sanchez was afforded the opportunity to stick to their game plan.

    We also can't argue about check down throws and short passed with YAC with Smith, because if I remember correctly, our first touchdown in that game is a check down to LT that he ran in, and the second touchdown is a 5 yard slant to Edwards, that he ran in with defenders on his back.

    Smith on the other hand, knew he had to pretty much score each and every time, while throwing. And the conditions just weren't upto it. Ryan Nassib had a distinctly worse game than Geno in the game, but Marrone was smart enough to realize that WV couldn't stop their run, so there was no point in throwing as much. Also, this is the same Nassib that a fair amount of Jets fans wanted because he's used to cold weather and had a rocket for an arm, negating the winds in NJ apparently. If his arm was good enough, he should've had much better stats against a buttercup defense like WV. But their running game was so dominant in that game, that it didn't matter if he had a bad game.

    Although I would like to say, I'm not saying Geno's performance was better than Sanchez's, because doing what Sanchez did against NE in the playoffs is a lot harder than the pinstripe bowl in college. I'm just saying, we can't say one performance by Sanchez was great and his crowning achievement as a Jet, and have a similar performance by Smith and say he struggled mightily in that game.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Win4ever View Post
    Mark was good in that game, but the defense really stepped up in that game too, giving him a better chance. I believe we had the opportunity to score when the INT was returned to like the 20 yard line, yet we missed the FG, when our offense didn't do anything.

    The second touchdown, to Edwards was also set up by that botched fake punt. It happened with a minute to go, inside the Pats 40. If they punt it away, and lets assume we get it at our 20, we most likely won't score there, and just go to half time at 7-3. The Holmes throw was magnificent and the catch was even better.

    But I don't think it was one of those games where Mark carried us by himself. It was the defense holding the vaunted Pats offense down, giving us a chance to mix our running game with our passing game. Sanchez was afforded the opportunity to stick to their game plan.

    We also can't argue about check down throws and short passed with YAC with Smith, because if I remember correctly, our first touchdown in that game is a check down to LT that he ran in, and the second touchdown is a 5 yard slant to Edwards, that he ran in with defenders on his back.

    Smith on the other hand, knew he had to pretty much score each and every time, while throwing. And the conditions just weren't upto it. Ryan Nassib had a distinctly worse game than Geno in the game, but Marrone was smart enough to realize that WV couldn't stop their run, so there was no point in throwing as much. Also, this is the same Nassib that a fair amount of Jets fans wanted because he's used to cold weather and had a rocket for an arm, negating the winds in NJ apparently. If his arm was good enough, he should've had much better stats against a buttercup defense like WV. But their running game was so dominant in that game, that it didn't matter if he had a bad game.

    Although I would like to say, I'm not saying Geno's performance was better than Sanchez's, because doing what Sanchez did against NE in the playoffs is a lot harder than the pinstripe bowl in college. I'm just saying, we can't say one performance by Sanchez was great and his crowning achievement as a Jet, and have a similar performance by Smith and say he struggled mightily in that game.
    Take a look at the OL that Sanchez had in 2010 too. You can't compare the 2010 jets team to the wvu roster, that's absurd

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by cant wait View Post
    Take a look at the OL that Sanchez had in 2010 too. You can't compare the 2010 jets team to the wvu roster, that's absurd
    To be honest, it's really sad that we got stuck with Sanchez on the 09 and 10 seasons. If Farve stayed on, instead of bolting to the Vikings to stick it to the Packers, we would've been so much better. We had the defense, we had the OL, the WR core was good, the RBs were good. We had pretty much everything but the god damn QB.

    WV was pretty much a 3 man show, with Austin, Bailey, and Geno.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Win4ever View Post
    To be honest, it's really sad that we got stuck with Sanchez on the 09 and 10 seasons. If Farve stayed on, instead of bolting to the Vikings to stick it to the Packers, we would've been so much better. We had the defense, we had the OL, the WR core was good, the RBs were good. We had pretty much everything but the god damn QB.

    WV was pretty much a 3 man show, with Austin, Bailey, and Geno.
    We still had a lamb duck OC which was why Farve left to begin with.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Win4ever View Post
    This is a post that I wrote for another forum, but figured might as well discuss it here. I heard the JetsInsider podcast today, and I can't understand why picking Geno in the second round was a mistake. And I think part of the problem is the negativity that is attached with dropping to the second round.

    Again, this is my post from TGG, but I'll put it in quotes, so you can distinguish my thoughts then and now.



    I think it ended up becoming a perfect storm type of event where teams thought QBs would go earlier, and went in different directions, only to have the pendulum swing enough to make these QBs a bargain. I just don't understand the dislike for Geno pick, because as long as he doesn't fall on his face, Geno should still have 2nd rd- 3rd value. I heard the Pats were asking for like a 2nd-3rd rd pick for Mallet, and he hasn't done anything yet.
    I don't have to read all the follow up thoughts here, but I see this as a different suggestion that you.

    When I see the lengths that all those teams went to, to settle their QB situation before the draft, it tells me there's concerns (expressed by their scouting department) about the viability of the finding an answer at quarterback through the draft. Teams decided to look elsewhere than the first round to address their need. So completely the opposite of a perfect storm if you will.

  7. #47
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    If there are those who think Mark will do better in the WCO since it fits what he does better, then Geno should flat out shine in this system once he gets it all down. Geno is better at everything compared to Mark. Stronger and more accurate arm, better pocket mobility, better escape ability, better when facing pressure... Geno has been used to making quick and accurate throws in his college offense. The only thing he needs is to get enough reps under center to get 100% comfortable with the timing. All Geno has had to concentrate on is this aspect of his skills. We should all hope he has gotten better at the 3, 5 and 7 step drops. Cuz if he does we'll likely have a much better QB on our hands. Geno is already better at the throwing aspect of his job.

    Someone had mentioned Geno having small hands and I was curious to see what other QB's hand sizes were. His hands are pretty much avg. 9.28". RG3 hands are 9.38". Joe Flacco 9.38".

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Paradis View Post
    I don't have to read all the follow up thoughts here, but I see this as a different suggestion that you.

    When I see the lengths that all those teams went to, to settle their QB situation before the draft, it tells me there's concerns (expressed by their scouting department) about the viability of the finding an answer at quarterback through the draft. Teams decided to look elsewhere than the first round to address their need. So completely the opposite of a perfect storm if you will.
    It could be, I doubt anyone graded Smith or Manuel anywhere near the level of Luck or RGIII, so they may have gotten trigger shy. But what I'm saying is that, these guys operated independently, most likely assuming that Geno and possibly others were going to go in the first round.

    Another factor is the immediate playing ability. We had one of the worst QBs in the game last year, and we're not even sure Geno is going to start out the year with the starting lineup because he does have adjustments to make. He goes to say the Cards, Chiefs, or Jags, and they are in the same situation that we are in 2009, where we pretty much had no one to compete with Sanchez and forced to start him. So teams like Arizona most likely figured they can get a stop gap QB, while filling out the holes on their team, rather than be all but forced to start a rookie.

    The Chiefs also have a decent roster around the QB, not great, but not horrible either with a slew of pro bowl caliber players, so they could go for the immediate effect guy in Alex Smith than develop Geno. It's more of do we want to develop our guy or should we wait, get a guy that can play now with a roster that can make a quick turn around (something the new coaching staff would love) and then go from there.

    The two teams that passed on Geno really are the Raiders (they made the move for Flynn albeit I doubt they are a win now team, so I'm not quite sure why) and the Bills. The rest had reasons to not draft a QB high because of circumstances.

    And obviously, this is my speculation on the events and how things could've unfolded. Not like I or anyone else here knows for sure how things happened. Just my line of thinking.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamers View Post
    We still had a lamb duck OC which was why Farve left to begin with.
    Yeah, although I think Favre wanted to go to the Vikings all along, it was just that GB wouldn't deal him there at all. It was pretty much going to be a rental for us.

  9. #49
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    Any team that valued Alex Smith or Kevin Kolb orMatt Flynn ahead of Smith (or Manuel or even Glennon) needs better personnel evaluators

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Win4ever View Post
    I think the value in the pick was amazingly good, because even a league average QB elevates our team substantially at this point.
    When I read this I wondered - who would a league average QB equate to? So i had a look on NFL.com at passing stats, and having tried to filter out "gimmick" ratings for guys that threw one pass and such like, a league average QB (based on passer rating) comes out as Joe Flacco, Andy Dalton, Eli Manning. Cam Newton. If you do the same based on completion % you get Kaepernick, Dalton again, Ponder and Palmer. Lastly, if you go by TD's, you get Flacco, Palmer, Schaub and Bradford.

    So yes, I would agree that average play at QB would be huge for us.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesR View Post
    When I read this I wondered - who would a league average QB equate to? So i had a look on NFL.com at passing stats, and having tried to filter out "gimmick" ratings for guys that threw one pass and such like, a league average QB (based on passer rating) comes out as Joe Flacco, Andy Dalton, Eli Manning. Cam Newton. If you do the same based on completion % you get Kaepernick, Dalton again, Ponder and Palmer. Lastly, if you go by TD's, you get Flacco, Palmer, Schaub and Bradford.

    So yes, I would agree that average play at QB would be huge for us.
    You can't just look at the stats. Mark was responsible for 32 TDs in 2011 which is pretty decent but does anybody think he had a good year? No b.c he turned the ball over 28 times. Part of being an "average" QB is making good decisions, holding onto the ball with two hands and not fumbling, not throwing INTs to DL. The stats only tell us so much.

    With average QB play we make the playoffs in 2011 and probably win 9 games in 2012. Houston, Tennessee and San Diego are all games that we likely win with better QB play.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Rico View Post
    The reason why Geno dropped and Sanchez didn't was because of how their teams did during the season. Geno's team tanked, lost like 4 or 5 in a row, and the Trojans went on to the Rose Bowl. Sanchez threw for 400+ yards and 5 TDs against a supposedly stout Penn State defense. Sanchez had a great pro day, and his leadership impressed a lot of people. Geno skipped the senior bowl.

    It doesn't make sense to blame this on other teams already having a quarterback. If they really wanted Geno, they wouldn't have wasted picks on guys like Alex Smith and Matt Flynn (who couldn't even beat a rookie in training camp). Hell, the Jets passed on him TWICE, and we needed a quarterback badly. He was and is a value pick, not someone we went after.

    Now, anything can happen at the pro level. Sanchez obviously isn't good enough. Hopefully Geno can be.
    Wow, good insight. That makes sense.

    I agree, the fact that WV tanked in the 2nd half of the season reflected very badly on him. WV's defense was god awful while USC's defense was really good/great but still..... the performances of their respective college teams did affect how Geno and Sanchez were perceived in their drafts.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by JumbalayaJet View Post
    We don't really know that yet, even with the worst QB in the league.

    Hope is eternal, and it doesn't sound like Geno will start this year. I'm really tired of waiting til next year. I don't care if we go 1-15, Mountaneer or bust.
    I'm not on board with that. TO this day, I'm fairly convinced that any chance Carr had to succeed in the NFL was destroyed. Throwing a guy in before he's ready doesn't mean he'll get better down the road, Guys like David Carr were ruined (imo) because they played before they were ready (or before the OL was ready)

  14. #54
    Don't care where he was picked.

    Only care how he plays.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDNYjets View Post
    You can't just look at the stats. Mark was responsible for 32 TDs in 2011 which is pretty decent but does anybody think he had a good year? No b.c he turned the ball over 28 times. Part of being an "average" QB is making good decisions, holding onto the ball with two hands and not fumbling, not throwing INTs to DL. The stats only tell us so much.

    With average QB play we make the playoffs in 2011 and probably win 9 games in 2012. Houston, Tennessee and San Diego are all games that we likely win with better QB play.
    If you can't count on your QB to make smart plays, to not turn it over, you're screwed.

    Being afraid to pass the ball is not a good way to go into drawing up a game plan.

  16. #56
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    Figure this is as good a place to add this info as any ...

    I have been doing everything possible to find any "hard" details about our QB situation that I can ... I was able to hear the following ... Thought it may be worth passing along to you guys:

    Sirius radio interviewed Rex Ryan

    Amongst other thing Jim Miller discussed with him Geno Smith

    Afterwards, here is the breakdown of Rexís answers that Jim believes.

    1. Geno has mechanical issues at this time

    Jim says that he feels Geno doesnít open up his left shoulder enough when rolling out to his left.

    2. Needs work getting snaps from Center

    Not able to go shotgun like he did in college.
    Needs to perfect getting the ball from center.
    Has footwork issues need to be tweaked.
    Dropping back from center there is timing with certain routes based on how many steps the dropback is (3 Ė 5- 7) Geno needs to know these

    Jim says that Geno is going to get snaps with the 1ís. He needs to show improvement with the mechanical issues & snap under center issues ... And most important needs to show it consistently.

    Jimís bottom line option is at this point Geno is not ready

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Batmans A Scientist View Post
    I'm not on board with that. TO this day, I'm fairly convinced that any chance Carr had to succeed in the NFL was destroyed. Throwing a guy in before he's ready doesn't mean he'll get better down the road, Guys like David Carr were ruined (imo) because they played before they were ready (or before the OL was ready)
    The thing your not getting is this may be his only shot. We drafted him to play this year. Next year if we arent sold on him someone else will be brought in. Your thinking this team has a long term commitment to him. That is not the case. He is a low risk high reward gamble. Either he looks like the future this year or he will just be our BU competing with someone else next year. Your not going to see that if he is sitting on the bench. Sitting him if he is the better QB doesnt help him or the team really. He is not going to be behind a horrid OL and he has the weapons to make plays. The only reason not to start him is if he just isnt any good at all. I'd say a majority of the starters in the NFL where day one not ready guys. Will we be saying Washington ruined RG3 starting him early in the future? Maybe but it was a gamble they had to make. For that matter was it a bad move for Seattle to go Wilson or Carolina to throw Cam Newton to the wolves? Maybe. You can in hind site all you want but teams that dont make the best move for the team right now seldom win. I could care less about next year or the year after. Geno gives us the best chance to win right now. If not ho well not many are expecting him to succeed. That just gives him more motivation IMO. If we had a viable option to groom him maybe Id argee but we just dont. There is no Kerry Collins or Chad Pennington on the roster right now. He doesnt have very big shoes to fill so for him succeeding just means NOT being one of the 2 worst starters in the league 4 years in a row.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by cant wait View Post
    Who gave geno a 3rd round grade? Oh that's right nobody
    Why do you not feel that they could have been teams giving him a 3rd rd grade. Some teams have players rated as a 3rd pick, other will have the same guy with a 1st rd grade. It is not unusual at all.

    The jets IMO got very good value where they picked him, but he was no consensus 1st rd pick by any means. Most pundits leading up to the draft thought that he was going to go late 1st with a team moving up from the 2nd.
    To think that they could not have been 1/2 dozen teams that did not like him at all would not be a stretch.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by patman View Post
    Why do you not feel that they could have been teams giving him a 3rd rd grade. Some teams have players rated as a 3rd pick, other will have the same guy with a 1st rd grade. It is not unusual at all.

    The jets IMO got very good value where they picked him, but he was no consensus 1st rd pick by any means. Most pundits leading up to the draft thought that he was going to go late 1st with a team moving up from the 2nd.
    To think that they could not have been 1/2 dozen teams that did not like him at all would not be a stretch.
    what do you care


    you got enough trouble with Gramps Brady nearing the end and Ryan "Leaf II" Mullett his only backup

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by sg3 View Post
    what do you care


    you got enough trouble with Gramps Brady nearing the end and Ryan "Leaf II" Mullett his only backup
    another great response from the DB

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