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Thread: Charter Schools,

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by shakin318 View Post
    Cool story bro. And you tell it so well.

    ps It's "allowed," not "aloud," professor.
    "Cool story bro?" Really? Quoting some moronic reality show that has run its course? Old and out dated, speaks volume

    Your unfunny, sophomoric responses only make me feel more confident that I am right.

    Ask your self this, how in the world could Americans agree to a federal new school reform with zero imput from teachers and parents?

    Trust politicians and big business with your child's education before a teacher? Maddening
    Last edited by copernicus; 08-06-2013 at 01:00 AM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    In a perfect world, every parent of a school-age child would recieve a tax credit for that child's education.

    They could then take that credit, and choose how to spend it.

    -If they want public school, it would remain, as a free 100% Govt. paid choice. The parent could use their credit to help level the playing field by spending it towards their child's education needs, books, computers, ect.

    -If they want private/charter school, they could apply their credit to the cost of private tuition.

    -If they want home schooling, they could utilize that credit towards the tools and supplies required for proper hom schooling.

    I would suggest the time, technologicly, has come where the old style of school has also become a wasteful anachronism, like a caboose on a train.

    We live in an e-world today, where the best and most effectiev teachers could, via technology, wide-distribute their teachings to thousands of kids at their homes or in schools, wherever is best for them, thus increasing the quality of the teaching. Parents could choose a format they prefer, home-online or school-online, where the staff are not teachers per se, but social behavioural minders there to oversee the operations and behaviors, not to teach.

    These elite teachers teaching thousands at once would be worth their weight in gold, worth as much as any actor, sportsman or the like, and under a system of tax credits, could make huge amounts of money for their efforts. I am convinced someone will explore this in the not too distant future....unless the iron grip of the teachers union can get legislation passed to bar it and/or bar any funding for it.

    It's time IMO we look for new solutions and new ways of doing business when it comes to education, because today we spend alot to get very little back. We can do better.
    Funny reading this from you after you blew off an article from Safety touching on that very same idea

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    In a perfect world, every parent of a school-age child would recieve a tax credit for that child's education.

    They could then take that credit, and choose how to spend it.

    -If they want public school, it would remain, as a free 100% Govt. paid choice. The parent could use their credit to help level the playing field by spending it towards their child's education needs, books, computers, ect.

    -If they want private/charter school, they could apply their credit to the cost of private tuition.

    -If they want home schooling, they could utilize that credit towards the tools and supplies required for proper hom schooling.

    I would suggest the time, technologicly, has come where the old style of school has also become a wasteful anachronism, like a caboose on a train.

    We live in an e-world today, where the best and most effectiev teachers could, via technology, wide-distribute their teachings to thousands of kids at their homes or in schools, wherever is best for them, thus increasing the quality of the teaching. Parents could choose a format they prefer, home-online or school-online, where the staff are not teachers per se, but social behavioural minders there to oversee the operations and behaviors, not to teach.

    These elite teachers teaching thousands at once would be worth their weight in gold, worth as much as any actor, sportsman or the like, and under a system of tax credits, could make huge amounts of money for their efforts. I am convinced someone will explore this in the not too distant future....unless the iron grip of the teachers union can get legislation passed to bar it and/or bar any funding for it.

    It's time IMO we look for new solutions and new ways of doing business when it comes to education, because today we spend alot to get very little back. We can do better.
    The bold portion of your response was one of the silliest things I have read here in a while.
    Last edited by intelligentjetsfan; 08-06-2013 at 08:57 AM.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by copernicus View Post
    This subjects is so out of your league it's ridiculous. Do you really think its the teachers solely changing grades?

    This is big business at its worst, it's why the business model does not work in public schools.

    Do you even undersandwhat a charter school is? It takes away funds from public schools all the while make profit off the backs off school kids pushing their own agenda's and obviously not having to follow the the same rules as the rest. You realize that charter schools use public buildings rent free?

    Did you actually read Bennett's emails? How incriminating they are at such a high level of government?

    And all you can come up with is that this is some sort of whiney union teacher agenda.

    Wake up to the obvious scam that new school reform is.
    I completely agree. People with a financial interest in the outcome should have no say in the structure of our children's education!

    (please hold the Admiral Ackbar references until Cop responds, thanks)

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by intelligentjetsfan View Post
    The bold portion of your response was one of the silliest things I have read here in a while.
    I happen to agree with you here...Fish's post while interesting and provoking is not likely. However, I have noticed your and Cops lack of response to a real solution.

    I see your strong desire to limit parents choice. That to me is so telling.

    I am thankful I could afford private schools for my kids. When I lived in NY, I crossed picket lines to go to teachers conferences.

    That environment of budget fights, angst between teachers and parents(taxpayers) was a poison for learning.

    Peter Thiel (PayPal founder) is paying kids BIG MONEY to not go to college. is he right? I dont think so but college is over rated and he is entitled to his approach as are the students who follow him.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by copernicus View Post
    This thread is not about what you think is unfair about the teaching proffesion as compared to other jobs. I'd really like to stick to the subject but will address your post.

    Good lord, you are so disconnected from current school systems its frightening. Where do I start?

    You want teachers to work a full year? Did you ever here of summer school? Camps run at public schools? When do you think a teacher gets the time to complete their masters and other numerous workshops that are mandatory? You are dillusional to think that school is not year round, it's up to the parent if they want their kid in a classroom or camp all year round. BTW, have you ever seen students in a classroom in May and June? They are burnt out beyond belief, but hey, who cares? You are more of an expert on the psychology of a child more that an educator right?

    Golden benefit package? Are you upset that cops, firemen, and sanitation have better? Same vacation time and they get to choose when they want to take it. Retirement? Cop, fire, and sanitation, twenty years, full retirement. Teacher? Thirty.

    Good teachers allow their students to make choices when it comes to politics. Have you read the "read alouds" for the state exams? Of course you haven't because the public is not aloud access. Well I can tell you it full propaganda to never question your government and be a good soldier. It's pathetic, but you wouldn't know, nor anyone because the govnment is hiding this from you.

    You don't want unions? You seem like a smart guy. We witnessed what this countries elite did to its people before unions. Enough said, I have documented history on my side.

    Cops, firemen, and sanitation workers who work in the inner city are not asked to buy their own uniforms and supplies to do their jobs but it seems fine with you that teachers are? And you want the school system to improve? Dillusional

    You are somehow under the false idea that somehow I cannot be fired because of tenure. All tenure does is protect me from being fired unjustly. So big business and government can't swoop in and place unqualified teachers in the classroom to teach your kids.

    You want teachers to be treated like everyone else? Really? Like being able to use the bathroom when they need? Choose their own vacations? Not have to work every weekend? Leave the job totally at quitting time? And not be blamed for the recession by the people who caused it?

    I take most of your post as a rant at something you are more angry at, like maybe your own job?

    Next you'll be saying that most of my spanish speaking students have deformed calfs from carrying too much pot across the desert
    You teach math, right?

    That said, I'm intrigued by your closing. Why do your Spanish speaking students all have baby cows?

  7. #47
    You want teachers to be treated like everyone else? Really? Like being able to use the bathroom when they need? Choose their own vacations? Not have to work every weekend? Leave the job totally at quitting time?
    You have an interesting view of what happens in the private sector

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by copernicus View Post
    Pretty easy to control for. It's a matter of averages. The "average third grade score" already controls for these situations because the average involves children in them. Therefore, unless a teacher is wildly unlucky, comparing the average score of the students in their class against both the average of the grade as a whole and the average of their students in prior years will suffice. And basing teacher evaluations on multiple years of data rather than isolated years further controls for "wildly unlucky" outliers.

    This is simple math/statistics.

    You teach English, right?

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by copernicus View Post
    Do you even understand the concept of public school?

    Do you understand what a charter school is?

    The concept of public school is that students are supposed to get an education that is free from any political and business angle. Charter schools are funded by huge corporations like Walmart. Do you think that the charter school funded by Walmart will even touch the subject of workers rights? You think the charter school funded by Verizon will dig deep into the link between cell phones and brain cancer? Or how about the charter run by Mobil teaching students about alternative energy? The idea flies in the face of protecting students from being bought by corporate America.

    Charter schools hand pick their students. It's clear that the lottery systems are rigged. The charter school takes all the good students from the neighborhood and leaves the terrible ones for the real teachers in public school to deal with. You see, teachers in charter schools have no union so there are no rules with highering. There are certain criteria that all public school teachers need to complete before they can even step into a classroom. The charter schools does not. Unlicensed teachers teach in charter schools, friends of friends of friends. It's corrupt. Even worse, if a child is struggling in a charter school, and there is a good chance that the students grades on standardized tests make the charter school look bad, they are given threatening letters that they must transfer immediatley or risk being left back. And yes, the score on the standardized test is connected to the public school teacher where the student transferred to, not the charter school teacher who taught him all year.

    Charter schools use publicly funded buildings tax free! Why? Do you ink Walmart, Verizon, and Home Depot shouldnt pay rent? Have the ability to sell their idea to hundreds of kids each day AND have their rent paid by you and I?

    Please inform yourself fully before spouting off about how great charter schools are.

    In light of the charter school scandal at such a high level of government with Tony Bennett and Jeb Bush that has been uncovered isn't it time we investigate what is really happening across this country in regards to charter schools?
    Wow, just wow.

  10. #50
    Cop - simple yes or no question for you:

    Should people with a financial interest in the education system be involved in setting education policy?

  11. #51
    This thread delivers.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite View Post
    Funny reading this from you after you blew off an article from Safety touching on that very same idea
    If so, it's quite possible I was too hasty in my dismissal. Wouldn't be the first time. I may also have simply been flat wrong, also wouldn't be the first time.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by southparkcpa View Post
    I happen to agree with you here...Fish's post while interesting and provoking is not likely. However, I have noticed your and Cops lack of response to a real solution.

    I see your strong desire to limit parents choice. That to me is so telling.

    I am thankful I could afford private schools for my kids. When I lived in NY, I crossed picket lines to go to teachers conferences.

    That environment of budget fights, angst between teachers and parents(taxpayers) was a poison for learning.

    Peter Thiel (PayPal founder) is paying kids BIG MONEY to not go to college. is he right? I dont think so but college is over rated and he is entitled to his approach as are the students who follow him.
    I never said that I wanted to limit parent's choices. But there is a place for traditional public schools; lets not throw the baby out with the bath water.

    The truth is that there is no one real solution or cure. The state of the educational system in this country is dire for many reasons;
    1. wasted money and fraud
    2. some poor teachers
    3. bad management
    4. conditions in society that affect education

    As the new tenure laws and test standards for teachers are implemented there will be less teachers of poor quality in the future. Its the fourth problem on my list that is, by far, the biggest impediment to education and our future, in general. We have a generation of parents who simply are failing their children. The reasons are many (needing to work two/three jobs (less free time), divorce, absentee parents, apathy etc) and the affects are severe. One of the many complications that has risen from these issues is that parents are using teachers, and schools in general, as a baby sitting service.

    So until we come up with solutions for the rising cost of living, lack of decent paying jobs, racial issues, broken families (just to name a few of many issues) and all the problems that stem from those issues, there will always be severe problems within our educational system as well as in all facets of society. Its not an coincidence that we are experiencing problems in all many areas, not just education, at this time. We are a country that is losing it's soul because the family structure has been decimated.
    Last edited by intelligentjetsfan; 08-06-2013 at 10:25 AM.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by copernicus View Post
    "Cool story bro?" Really? Quoting some moronic reality show that has run its course? Old and out dated, speaks volume

    Your unfunny, sophomoric responses only make me feel more confident that I am right.

    Ask your self this, how in the world could Americans agree to a federal new school reform with zero imput from teachers and parents?

    Trust politicians and big business with your child's education before a teacher? Maddening
    I responded that way simply because you're clearly frothing at the mouth over the issue, and spent your rambling post trying to tell me what I think and know. The fact that your posts are rife with spelling and grammatical errors speaks volumes about our public education system -- apparently it failed you miserably, until it started putting cash in your pocket and giving you summers off. If public schools by and large didn't suck so badly, there would be no discussion or need for charter schools. But you've got rubber rooms and tenure protecting sh:tbird teachers, ridiculously powerful unions that buy corrupt politicians and put the kids LAST, and an agenda-driven ideological syllabus rewriting history and trying to churn out PC drones who should not try to excel and be dominant in anything, lest someone else's self-esteem suffer from coming in second place or -- heaven forbid -- last in something. While it may not be the perfect solution, putting education in the hands of the competitive free market will assure us all of at least one thing: HIGH QUALITY EDUCATION. And that's simply because in the free market, if your product sucks, your time is short-lived, and if you're offering a product that meets the wants and needs of consumers, you flourish.
    Last edited by shakin318; 08-06-2013 at 10:33 AM.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by southparkcpa View Post
    I happen to agree with you here...Fish's post while interesting and provoking is not likely. However, I have noticed your and Cops lack of response to a real solution.

    I see your strong desire to limit parents choice. That to me is so telling.

    I am thankful I could afford private schools for my kids. When I lived in NY, I crossed picket lines to go to teachers conferences.

    That environment of budget fights, angst between teachers and parents(taxpayers) was a poison for learning.

    Peter Thiel (PayPal founder) is paying kids BIG MONEY to not go to college. is he right? I dont think so but college is over rated and he is entitled to his approach as are the students who follow him.
    Thiel's program is much more than paying kids (i believe $250k) to not go to college and start a business. The $250k is supposed to be seed money for that business. He selects the top applicants that submit business plans to him and provides guidance and mentors for a promise to not go to college for 2 years. He selects the brightest kids that he feels will not gain anything from college and instead puts their ideas into action. It is a very interesting story. One of the worst myths of our culture is that college is for everyone. I think this is a great experiment that will give these kids a great experience and if they fail they can still go to college at 20 with much more knowledge and maturity than they would have at 18. It is a win/win as far as I see it. Where is the problem with this approach?

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by intelligentjetsfan View Post
    I never said that I wanted to limit parent's choices. But there is a place for traditional public schools; lets not throw the baby out with the bath water.

    The truth is that there is no one real solution or cure. The state of the educational system in this country is dire for many reasons;
    1. wasted money and fraud
    2. some poor teachers
    3. bad management
    4. conditions in society that affect education

    As the new tenure laws and test standards for teachers are implemented there will be less teachers of poor quality in the future. Its the fourth problem on my list that is, by far, the biggest impediment to education and our future, in general. We have a generation of parents who simply are failing their children. The reasons are many (needing to work two/three jobs (less free time), divorce, absentee parents, apathy etc) and the affects are severe. One of the many complications that has risen from these issues is that parents are using teachers, and schools in general, as a baby sitting service.

    So until we come up with solutions for the rising cost of living, lack of decent paying jobs, racial issues, broken families (just to name a few of many issues) and all the problems that stem from those issues, there will always be severe problems within our educational system as well as in all facets of society. Its not an coincidence that we are experiencing problems in all many areas, not just education, at this time. We are a country that is losing it's soul because the family structure has been decimated.
    I agree with all of that. The "crush the charter school" movement that COP and teachers unions promote does not stand with your points above.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trades View Post
    Thiel's program is much more than paying kids (i believe $250k) to not go to college and start a business. The $250k is supposed to be seed money for that business. He selects the top applicants that submit business plans to him and provides guidance and mentors for a promise to not go to college for 2 years. He selects the brightest kids that he feels will not gain anything from college and instead puts their ideas into action. It is a very interesting story. One of the worst myths of our culture is that college is for everyone. I think this is a great experiment that will give these kids a great experience and if they fail they can still go to college at 20 with much more knowledge and maturity than they would have at 18. It is a win/win as far as I see it. Where is the problem with this approach?
    I have no beef with Thiel, in fact, many of my clients and friends who do VERY WELL, do it in a vocation very different from their college degree.
    Thiels development of Paypal is incredible. I f you have n't read it...a book called "Once you're lucky, twice you're good" talks about all these 2.0 internet gurus. Thiel is incredible.

    I simply like college as a growing up period. The 4 years POST high school to mature and be exposed to different things.

    In college for me, I had 2 classes far from my dorm and the 1 hour inbetween I went to the library and read FORBES and the WSJ. It literally changed my life. Not to mention the binge drinking and sex.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by intelligentjetsfan View Post
    I never said that I wanted to limit parent's choices. But there is a place for traditional public schools; lets not throw the baby out with the bath water.

    The truth is that there is no one real solution or cure. The state of the educational system in this country is dire for many reasons;
    1. wasted money and fraud
    2. some poor teachers
    3. bad management
    4. conditions in society that affect education

    As the new tenure laws and test standards for teachers are implemented there will be less teachers of poor quality in the future. Its the fourth problem on my list that is, by far, the biggest impediment to education and our future, in general. We have a generation of parents who simply are failing their children. The reasons are many (needing to work two/three jobs (less free time), divorce, absentee parents, apathy etc) and the affects are severe. One of the many complications that has risen from these issues is that parents are using teachers, and schools in general, as a baby sitting service.

    So until we come up with solutions for the rising cost of living, lack of decent paying jobs, racial issues, broken families (just to name a few of many issues) and all the problems that stem from those issues, there will always be severe problems within our educational system as well as in all facets of society. Its not an coincidence that we are experiencing problems in all many areas, not just education, at this time. We are a country that is losing it's soul because the family structure has been decimated.
    I doubt you're going to find much in the way of significant disagreement from anyone here - except perhaps Cop, who is rabidly against test standards for teachers and insists they will have nothing to do with teacher quality.

    I doubt anyone here thinks testing and resolving teacher quality issues are sufficient to solve the education problems in the US - but it is necessary, and along with targeting bad management one of the few things susceptible to direct intervention.

    Unfortunately, "conditions in society that affect education" aren't really susceptible to easy fixes

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by doggin94it View Post
    I doubt you're going to find much in the way of significant disagreement from anyone here - except perhaps Cop, who is rabidly against test standards for teachers and insists they will have nothing to do with teacher quality.

    I doubt anyone here thinks testing and resolving teacher quality issues are sufficient to solve the education problems in the US - but it is necessary, and along with targeting bad management one of the few things susceptible to direct intervention.

    Unfortunately, "conditions in society that affect education" aren't really susceptible to easy fixes
    You've been nailin' it in this thread.

    I was just going to say I agreed with ijf on this rare occasion. Cop, however, could not be any further removed from reality. It's scary.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by doggin94it View Post
    You teach math, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by doggin94it View Post
    You teach English, right?
    Brilliant

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by JetPotato View Post
    You've been nailin' it in this thread.

    I was just going to say I agreed with ijf on this rare occasion. Cop, however, could not be any further removed from reality. It's scary.
    Yes, I am so far off, it's scary........

    http://nyceducator.com/2013/08/commo...ans-never.html

    Common Core--Being Reformy Means Never Having to Say You're Sorry

    The new Common Core test scores are about to come out, and are anticipated to be a disaster. This, naturally, will give further credence to the corporate-created myth that our schools are in crisis and need to be "reformed," despite the fact that CC itself is quite reformy. The fact that no one actually knew what would be on the tests is of no importance, nor is the fact that this system has never been proven, let alone tested, anywhere.

    The papers will write editorials about "failing" schools, and will revel in this as proof that unionized teachers are goofing off when they should be teaching. Of course, since no one knew what would be on the tests, no one could prepare students for the tests. And, of course, we don't really know what passing or failing these tests establishes.

    In fact, even today, elementary and middle schools haven't got a curriculum for this all-important program. The thing about reformy programs is they are absolutely urgent. That's why we can't wait to find out whether or not they work. In fact, in the case of things like VAM and merit pay, the fact that they have failed everywhere they've been tried is no reason to stop using them. In times of crisis, we must do whatever Bill Gates says we must do, no matter how counter-productive or idiotic it is.

    So despite the fact that these tests have not been established to determine anything whatsoever, they will be used to place teachers on a fast track to unemployment, one of the long-cherished goals of reformy people everywhere. So what if we vilify a few more city teachers for no reason whatsoever? As long as we can fire them, we're making progress.

    Now I don't know whether or not these tests will establish anything. But when the scores are as abysmal as projected, they'll be used as a battering ram to trash working teachers. Why on earth didn't teachers prepare kids for the tests they had never seen? Why didn't they spend a little time going over the material that didn't exist?

    And, of course, in schools with high numbers of learning disabled and ESL students, the scores will be lower, and reformy Arne Duncan will press for their closure. Never mind that every school targeted for closure has had high numbers of such students. That's just a coincidence. It must be the fault of the unionized teachers.

    It can have nothing to do with the lack of planning and preparation. We are simply to assume that Common Core is wonderful, despite the fact there is no evidence whatsoever.

    Because reformy Arne Duncan says so, and that ought to be enough for anyone.

    Posted by NYC Educator at 10:13 AM
    Labels: "reformers", Arne Duncan, Common Core, high-states testing, reforminess, test prep, test scores, testing
    Last edited by copernicus; 08-07-2013 at 10:02 AM.

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