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Thread: My evaluation of Sanchez...

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by OCCH View Post
    I would love for you guys to find ONE -- JUST ONE -- post that implies people on this board don't hold Mark accountable for his production (or lack thereof). You either agree or disagree that Mark has not been given the best playmakers/coaches over the past four years. You either agree or disagree that he can be "decent" if you surround him with enough talent. (And Greenwave you did give a thorough response to this in an earlier post, so thank you for that).

    Anyone here who "defends" Sanchez only does it in the HOPES that an improvement from a coaching perspective helps him become competent. You won't find ONE post that predicts greatness, or that is already lining up an excuse for him in case this season falls through. On the flip side, I can find TONS of posts that have already determined that Sanchez isn't even a 3rd string QB in this league. That we would have been better off keeping Tebow. That he's "the worst starting QB in the history of the NFL". That he's the offensive equivalent to Vernon Gholston. Not saying you guys specifically hold these views, but the reality is it's the Sanchez-bashers that go way too far with their opinions, and the supposed "Sanchez-backers" don't even exist in the way they are portrayed on this site.

    It's as simple as not wanting to give up on a guy until the coaching staff chooses to. If you don't think Sanchez should start, that shows just as much lack of faith in MM as it does in Sanchez. You're certainly entitled to that opinion, but it doesn't mean those of us that disagree have some man-crush on Sanchez -- the guy is dead to me as soon as a better option presents itself, which should be the attitude toward ANY position on the team . . .
    +1. Although, that kind of logic doesn't seem to fair well, on this board.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by OCCH View Post
    I would love for you guys to find ONE -- JUST ONE -- post that implies people on this board don't hold Mark accountable for his production (or lack thereof). You either agree or disagree that Mark has not been given the best playmakers/coaches over the past four years. You either agree or disagree that he can be "decent" if you surround him with enough talent. (And Greenwave you did give a thorough response to this in an earlier post, so thank you for that).

    Anyone here who "defends" Sanchez only does it in the HOPES that an improvement from a coaching perspective helps him become competent. You won't find ONE post that predicts greatness, or that is already lining up an excuse for him in case this season falls through. On the flip side, I can find TONS of posts that have already determined that Sanchez isn't even a 3rd string QB in this league. That we would have been better off keeping Tebow. That he's "the worst starting QB in the history of the NFL". That he's the offensive equivalent to Vernon Gholston. Not saying you guys specifically hold these views, but the reality is it's the Sanchez-bashers that go way too far with their opinions, and the supposed "Sanchez-backers" don't even exist in the way they are portrayed on this site.

    It's as simple as not wanting to give up on a guy until the coaching staff chooses to. If you don't think Sanchez should start, that shows just as much lack of faith in MM as it does in Sanchez. You're certainly entitled to that opinion, but it doesn't mean those of us that disagree have some man-crush on Sanchez -- the guy is dead to me as soon as a better option presents itself, which should be the attitude toward ANY position on the team . . .
    Thank You !!!. The anti-Sanchez militia will not be happy with your response but I believe it speaks the truth for how 99% of us feel who still thinks he can be salvaged under MM.

    We've all been accused of being Sanchez fanboys and in some instances much worse, the lemmings here who want to follow the media negativity and just pile on are the worst. They want Sanchez gone in the worst way but they have no capacity of looking at the bigger picture, instead they resort to childish names, personal attacks and throw out useless stats like a badge of honor . They can't fathom that Sanchez playing well is the best thing that could happen to Geno , as it allows him to sit and learn w/o being thrust into the starting role as a perceived messiah.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Ray19 View Post
    While you're all proud of yourself in your persistence to be a jackass and obsess over everything I post, Carr's career provides a very good example of what can happen to a QB when the team he plays for doesn't do a good job to set him up for success, there are definitely some similarities with Sanchez' career to date.
    I'm not sure if this is a joke or not, but I can't think of a single rookie QB who was given the tools that Sanchez was. Elite line, elite running game, very skilled receiving tight end, and solid receivers, and the solid receivers became very good in his second year. The only complaint I can think of is that the Jets OL was too good in Sanchez's rookie year so he never learned how to deal with a pass rusher being anywhere in his vicinity, but I don't think that's what you meant.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by OCCH View Post
    I would love for you guys to find ONE -- JUST ONE -- post that implies people on this board don't hold Mark accountable for his production (or lack thereof). You either agree or disagree that Mark has not been given the best playmakers/coaches over the past four years. You either agree or disagree that he can be "decent" if you surround him with enough talent. (And Greenwave you did give a thorough response to this in an earlier post, so thank you for that).

    Anyone here who "defends" Sanchez only does it in the HOPES that an improvement from a coaching perspective helps him become competent. You won't find ONE post that predicts greatness, or that is already lining up an excuse for him in case this season falls through. On the flip side, I can find TONS of posts that have already determined that Sanchez isn't even a 3rd string QB in this league. That we would have been better off keeping Tebow. That he's "the worst starting QB in the history of the NFL". That he's the offensive equivalent to Vernon Gholston. Not saying you guys specifically hold these views, but the reality is it's the Sanchez-bashers that go way too far with their opinions, and the supposed "Sanchez-backers" don't even exist in the way they are portrayed on this site.

    It's as simple as not wanting to give up on a guy until the coaching staff chooses to. If you don't think Sanchez should start, that shows just as much lack of faith in MM as it does in Sanchez. You're certainly entitled to that opinion, but it doesn't mean those of us that disagree have some man-crush on Sanchez -- the guy is dead to me as soon as a better option presents itself, which should be the attitude toward ANY position on the team . . .
    I don't think people are saying it's all Sanchez or all the coaching. You can't put blame on one without the other. He hasn't been given a consistent offensive coordinator with receivers in his 4 years in the league. But, he exhibits all the characteristics of someone who doesn't learn to stop making critical mistakes, that is uncoachable. There are two levels at fault. Coaches and Sanchez.

    Add the owner if you want to make it a conspiracy, but it's not just one.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_0515 View Post
    I don't think people are saying it's all Sanchez or all the coaching. You can't put blame on one without the other. He hasn't been given a consistent offensive coordinator with receivers in his 4 years in the league. But, he exhibits all the characteristics of someone who doesn't learn to stop making critical mistakes, that is uncoachable. There are two levels at fault. Coaches and Sanchez.

    Add the owner if you want to make it a conspiracy, but it's not just one.
    But is it really , traits can be corrected - look at Tiki Barber and his fumbling, many said that can't be coached, but it takes effort from both the player and CS to make that work. From everything I've seen and read ( despite the jealous haters that say he's dating models and posed in GQ etc..)Sanchez has been a diligent worker and comitted to being a better QB, I'm just not sure he's had that same level of comittment from his offensive coaches to date. The hope is with MM & Lee he has two renowned coaches who have been responsible for developing so called "lost causes" at QB. He has the tools and guidance to work through his issues , can he take advantage of it - I guess we'll find out soon enough.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_0515 View Post
    I don't think people are saying it's all Sanchez or all the coaching. You can't put blame on one without the other. He hasn't been given a consistent offensive coordinator with receivers in his 4 years in the league. But, he exhibits all the characteristics of someone who doesn't learn to stop making critical mistakes, that is uncoachable. There are two levels at fault. Coaches and Sanchez.

    Add the owner if you want to make it a conspiracy, but it's not just one.
    I agree there's enough fault to go around, but that's not really the point (at least as I see it).

    The true debate isn't who's to blame, but is it fixable? Can "better coaching" make Mark better? Some think it CAN (though you won't find anyone saying it WILL) and some say it CAN'T -- that he's a waste of space and doesn't even deserve the opportunity to try. While I disagree with the latter, I have no problem with anyone who says it as they might ultimately be correct. However, the fact that I (and others) are not willing to throw the guy to the curb just yet doesn't mean we're blind Sanchez homers who will go to any extreme to protect our hero (not that you're saying that, but there are A TON of posters that say it quite explicitly) . . .

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by OCCH View Post
    I agree there's enough fault to go around, but that's not really the point (at least as I see it).

    The true debate isn't who's to blame, but is it fixable? Can "better coaching" make Mark better? Some think it CAN (though you won't find anyone saying it WILL) and some say it CAN'T -- that he's a waste of space and doesn't even deserve the opportunity to try. While I disagree with the latter, I have no problem with anyone who says it as they might ultimately be correct. However, the fact that I (and others) are not willing to throw the guy to the curb just yet doesn't mean we're blind Sanchez homers who will go to any extreme to protect our hero (not that you're saying that, but there are A TON of posters that say it quite explicitly) . . .
    marks 3 rd down play with 14 seconds when the clock ran out is his skill set in a nutshell. NO Coaching etc can be blamed. he didn't have enough awareness to dump the ball for a kick as the coaches planned.

  8. #208
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    I thought Sanchez looked better in these last two games. But that's the problem - it is still the preseason. His level of play went up very obviously because the OL played so well.

    This is no different than the Sanchez we've always known. If you surround him with pro bowlers, he WILL play well. The problem is he cannot raise the level of the players around him at all. He's still garbage and I would only believe he has started to play better if he was able to prove playing well in the face of having less on the team.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by 56mehl56 View Post
    But is it really , traits can be corrected - look at Tiki Barber and his fumbling, many said that can't be coached, but it takes effort from both the player and CS to make that work. From everything I've seen and read ( despite the jealous haters that say he's dating models and posed in GQ etc..)Sanchez has been a diligent worker and comitted to being a better QB, I'm just not sure he's had that same level of comittment from his offensive coaches to date. The hope is with MM & Lee he has two renowned coaches who have been responsible for developing so called "lost causes" at QB. He has the tools and guidance to work through his issues , can he take advantage of it - I guess we'll find out soon enough.
    He has shown that those bonehead plays will continue in 2013 so far. Has he not?

    Trends are trends. Like I've said multiple times, he has to do something extraordinary to be around in 2014. Another 1:1 TD:INT ratio isn't going to cut it.

    And as was said before, most of us would be okay if he did something special to make up for his terrible mistakes. He does not do those things. Yes, he needs better players around him, but no better players would keep him from giving the ball to the DEs. How many times has he done that? Overthrows? Poor completion percentage? 55.1% I just looked it up. Last year was worse than that. Blame the offensive coaches and lack of talent all you want, but at what point do you look at the player and ask yourself if he's not performing at the level he can that he can control? Does he work hard? Apparently he does, but working hard doesn't translate to good. He needs to do the right things, and maybe he has, but it hasn't translated onto the field in the last 4 years.


  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by FMJets View Post
    If 2 plays went Sanchez's way he would easily be the front runner to start week 1 unless Geno is lights out against the Giants. 2 plays are ... Hill makes the tough catch that guys like Reggie Wayne (one handed grab or the diving td catch which should have been an INT) or Calvin Johnson makes routinely, and Winslow runs a better route and catches the TD. Rex said it was not all on Mark in latest interview, basically saying Winslow fcked up without throwing him under the bus.
    His stats would be better because thats all SOJF look at, and sports writers across the nation look at. Anyway his stats ..
    15/23 180+yds 65.2% 2 TD 0 INT 118 QBrating.
    This is typical of someone who thinks sanchez is good or can be good. You have to change what actually happened and replace it with your fantasy of what you wish happened. That's it, just take out the bad stuff and replace it with good stuff and BAM you have a good QB.

    Most of us prefer to live in reality where unfortunately Sanchez is still making bone headed decisions that only a rookie should. There's a reason our new OC won't even say he trusts him. Because he doesn't.

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyjfollower View Post
    This is typical of someone who thinks sanchez is good or can be good. You have to change what actually happened and replace it with your fantasy of what you wish happened. That's it, just take out the bad stuff and replace it with good stuff and BAM you have a good QB.

    Most of us prefer to live in reality where unfortunately Sanchez is still making bone headed decisions that only a rookie should. There's a reason our new OC won't even say he trusts him. Because he doesn't.

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyjfollower View Post
    This is typical of someone who thinks sanchez is good or can be good. You have to change what actually happened and replace it with your fantasy of what you wish happened. That's it, just take out the bad stuff and replace it with good stuff and BAM you have a good QB.

    Most of us prefer to live in reality where unfortunately Sanchez is still making bone headed decisions that only a rookie should. There's a reason our new OC won't even say he trusts him. Because he doesn't.


    You mean like the mistakes Eli Manning made last night, and the same pick 6 play Ben Roethlisberger made tonight?

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Ray19 View Post


    You mean like the mistakes Eli Manning made last night, and the same pick 6 play Ben Roethlisberger made tonight?
    :middlefinger:

    Missed those games ... did Eli throw a pick 6 to a dlineman? Did Roethlisberger let time expire before half instead of making a quick decision and securing points?

    More importantly, how many fantasies do sanchez fans need to dream up before they find sanchez in the same universe as those guys?

    It's much easier to overlook a bone head play here or there when it's not the norm.

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Ray19 View Post
    As I mentioned in KRL's thread, Sanchez should be evaluated for the complete body of work, under MM, for the first two games, which overall, has been a dramatic improvement, with what we've seen in the last two years.



    He's worked about a full game, 23-36, 294 yds, 2 TD's 2 INT's...

    While everyone will only focus on his mistakes, I think he has ALSO shown areas of improvement, and at lease SOME fight for the job, to improve, show that he can fight through fan outrage, and does seem to be progressing well in MM's new offense.

    The irony, last night's game, Sanchez started fast, had a great first quarter, then had a poor 2nd quarter, especially the end of the 2nd quarter. So after last week, when Sanchez had the poor start against Detroit, everybody wanted to instead ignore his 10-13, 125 yd performance, but only focus on the bad start and the INT. Last night, he started off great, and had a lull at the mid point and end of the 2nd quarter, before given a chance to rebound in the 3rd quarter, and once again responded favorably.

    I loved the work and fire he showed on the TD drive, the TD to Cumberland, made great reads, threaded several nice passes, and made very good decisions.

    He made some good decisions on screen plays or on plays that didn't evolve well where there wasn't anything available, and he threw the ball into the dirt, good plays, good decisions, good work

    The 2nd quarter, obviously a different story, off of the fumble recovery, that is just inexcusable. I can defend Sanchez, but not for that, he needs to make better decisions, there were several, he tried to hard to make plays without throwing the ball, I felt he held himself back on a play where had he not gave up and tried to run, he would have had Gates in the back of the EZ for a TD, I can see he's battling himself, to improve on what he's done wrong in the past, but is still not doing the right thing, rushing plays, and not letting them develop, or not rushing plays, not making quick decisions.

    The play where he tucks and runs, he should have extended that just a bit more, for the TD to Gates, he's got t see there is one defender, having to decide on the RB/FB (think it was Bohanon in the flat, and then Gates running a round in the back of the EZ. Then on the final play with 6 secs left, he's got to make a quick decision, see what the defense is giving him, after snap, and see that he has nothing, throw the ball into the ground and have MM give him another play to call, change things up. That series of plays bothered me the most, that and the INT on a bad decision.

    But aside from the end of the 2nd half, and the INT, Sanchez played some of his best ball. It is really a tale of multiple ups, and some downs, the ups were good, and the several downs were bad.

    But taking a step back, understanding that this is the pre-season, a new offense, still working with new players and without key players in Holmes, and not playing with Edwards until the 2nd half, I thought Sanchez overall was pretty good. I realize fans will over dissect the bad plays, but we really should be evaluating the ENTIRE performance, understand that this is pre-season, the team as a whole are working through kinks, timing, and synergy of a new offense.

    Geno DOES deserve HIS shot next week, no question, but he really has to play well, and very well to win the job, otherwise, let him learn, I still think, as of RIGHT now, Sanchez has done enough, and has shown progress to win the job, he's shown flashes of being able to bounce back, despite the negative plays, let's see how he progresses through these lapses under MM and Lee, that is the key, fans won't acknowledge this, especially the Sanchez haters, but I do think Sanchez made positive steps overall, despite the few lapses.

    The key here again, how does Sanchez respond to MM and Lee coaching him through these mistakes, on tape, seeing what Sanchez did wrong and how MM and Lee make their corrections, and how Sanchez responds to those corrections and how he can progress from them under MM and Lee.





  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Ray19 View Post


    You mean like the mistakes Eli Manning made last night, and the same pick 6 play Ben Roethlisberger made tonight?
    Every QB makes mistakes. The question is do they make more good plays than bad plays?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyjfollower View Post
    :middlefinger:

    Missed those games ... did Eli throw a pick 6 to a dlineman? Did Roethlisberger let time expire before half instead of making a quick decision and securing points?

    More importantly, how many fantasies do sanchez fans need to dream up before they find sanchez in the same universe as those guys?

    It's much easier to overlook a bone head play here or there when it's not the norm.
    Typical SOJF blowhard, wales away at his keyboard ignorantly, gets called out for his hypocrisy, then backpedals and spins.

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Ray19 View Post
    Typical SOJF blowhard, wales away at his keyboard ignorantly, gets called out for his hypocrisy, then backpedals and spins.
    Wow. At least you have a good imagination.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Ray19 View Post


    You mean like the mistakes Eli Manning made last night, and the same pick 6 play Ben Roethlisberger made tonight?
    They make bad decisions as well, Ray, no doubt, but the problem with our QB is that the bad plays heavily out-weigh the good plays. Especially in recent memory. In 2010 he showed flashes of a comeback kid kind of personality. That's gone now. The bonehead decisioned turnover machine is what's left.

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanMadman View Post
    Every QB makes mistakes. The question is do they make more good plays than bad plays?
    it is even more subtle than that. If a Qb has a good team behind him, he'll look a lot better. A good WR can make a QB look good. A good Offensive Coordinator can make the QB look great. Timing is everything.

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Ray19 View Post
    Great is a strong word, I've never mentioned the word great, I'm a realist. I simply do not know to what level Sanchez can be salvaged, I just want to see him get that opportunity.
    If you don't think he can be great, and (generally speaking) only great QB's win Super Bowls, why exactly do you want to see him get an opportunity?

    Also, can it really be called "an opportunity" when the guy we're talking about is an uncontested, 5th-year veteran starter?

    I want to see him improve, progress, gain back his confidence, fight for his career, I want to see what MM and Lee can get out of him. But to what level that is, if at all, remains to be seen.
    And again, I'd ask.....if "what level" is anything but "Super Bowl Quality", why would we (who both want a title above all else, right?) want to see him get an opportunity, knowing his highest upside may (is) not Super Bowl-level?

    I'm confused Ray, help me out. Either you think he CAN be great, i.e. Super-Bowl Level great and hence want to see him get his shot OR you don't and you don't. I can't see how a fan whose biggest desire is a title could want to see a guy he doesn't think can be great get time, get a shot?
    Last edited by Churchill; 08-19-2013 at 10:33 PM.

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