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Thread: My evaluation of Sanchez...

  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by John_0515 View Post
    Simple question. And I wish the answer was different, but:

    Has Sanchez improved over the last 3 years?
    No, but that is irrelevant in the spirit of cleaning slate with offensive coaching overhaul. Cav and Sparano wrecked Sanchez and the offense.

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Ray19 View Post
    No, but that is irrelevant in the spirit of cleaning slate with offensive coaching overhaul. Cav and Sparano wrecked Sanchez and the offense.
    C'mon Ray. We heard the same nonsense about Gholston. It wasn't this coach or that coach who "wrecked" Vernon. He just sucked. Same thing with Sanchez. A great defense and a ground and pound offense permitted the Jets to hide him somewhat during years 1 and 2. But he was pretty awful even then. Now we have four years worth of awful in the books and you are blaming the coaches for the fact that he still throws so many interceptions?

    Egads.

    Props I suppose for trying to defend the indefensible but really, the difference between this and trolling is pretty much zero.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by EM31 View Post
    C'mon Ray. We heard the same nonsense about Gholston. It wasn't this coach or that coach who "wrecked" Vernon. He just sucked. Same thing with Sanchez. A great defense and a ground and pound offense permitted the Jets to hide him somewhat during years 1 and 2. But he was pretty awful even then. Now we have four years worth of awful in the books and you are blaming the coaches for the fact that he still throws so many interceptions?

    Egads.

    Props I suppose for trying to defend the indefensible but really, the difference between this and trolling is pretty much zero.
    trolling?


  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by EM31 View Post
    C'mon Ray. We heard the same nonsense about Gholston. It wasn't this coach or that coach who "wrecked" Vernon. He just sucked. Same thing with Sanchez. A great defense and a ground and pound offense permitted the Jets to hide him somewhat during years 1 and 2. But he was pretty awful even then. Now we have four years worth of awful in the books and you are blaming the coaches for the fact that he still throws so many interceptions?

    Egads.

    Props I suppose for trying to defend the indefensible but really, the difference between this and trolling is pretty much zero.
    The second you compare Sanchez to Gholston you lose all credibility.

    Sanchez has accomplished WAY more than Gholston, which is much more of an indictment of the latter than praise for the former.

    If you think Sanchez is a lost cause so be it, but not because of the nightmare that was VG . . .

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Ray19 View Post
    No, but that is irrelevant in the spirit of cleaning slate with offensive coaching overhaul. Cav and Sparano wrecked Sanchez and the offense.
    So what you're saying is, all Sanchez has to do to keep his career going is play bad enough to get an OC or HC fired. That way, when he sucks the following year people like you will say "hey, it's a new system, what do you expect?"

    How many coaches does he have to go through before he's the problem? Cavanaugh, Schotty, Sparano, and coming soon to a theater of excuses near you, Rex.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenWave View Post
    So what you're saying is, all Sanchez has to do to keep his career going is play bad enough to get an OC or HC fired. That way, when he sucks the following year people like you will say "hey, it's a new system, what do you expect?"

    How many coaches does he have to go through before he's the problem? Cavanaugh, Schotty, Sparano, and coming soon to a theater of excuses near you, Rex.
    What I'm saying is, one of Sanchez' biggest problems the last two years especially has been coaching and development, Cavanaugh was horrible, and Sparano was a train wreck, I've said this countless times, and is one of the cruxes of my defense of Sanchez. I want to see how Sanchez responds to MM and Lee.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
    Simple question, is it acceptable for your starting Qb to give up about 2 absolutely terrible turnovers per game, every single game? If you are the type of QB that coughs up those bad turnovers on a regular basis you need to also do one of two things. 1) Have a very high completion rate or 2) Make a lot of very big plays to compensate for the mistakes.

    This is where any and all of these comparisons fall flat on their face. Brett Favre and Eli Manning both made ghastly mistakes in their careers, but they were also more accurate and made a LOT of huge game breaking plays to make up for it.

    Sanchez has poor accuracy, poor pocket sense, makes those ghastly turnoevers and does not make near enough big game breaking plays. It's as simple as that. He's done with with a good defense, a good running game, a good oline, he's done it from year one to year five. That's who he is.

    Because home fan bases can be more biased than outsiders on certain players you often get the truth from other fan bases or teams. I can guarantee you that other team and fans are happy as can be the more games Sanchez plays for this team. He's been a mediocre to bad QB all his career and is no where near good enough to get the team to where it needs to be. I hope he plays well enough this year so that Idzik can get something for him in the off season.
    Where that line of thinking falls apart is to compare the NYG or GB offensive coaching staff and offensive mindset against that of the Jets. Do you think Eli or Favre would have thrived in G&P , not a chance the G&P is a system where QB's Stat's go to die.
    Sure Sanchez has been a mediocre to bad QB , but so has the offensive coaching staff, people want to compare Sanchez to other QB's but fail to look at the system's these QB's play in. Put half the QB's in the league in the Rex/Shotty/Sparano offense and guess what they will start to resemble Sanchez.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenWave View Post
    So what you're saying is, all Sanchez has to do to keep his career going is play bad enough to get an OC or HC fired. That way, when he sucks the following year people like you will say "hey, it's a new system, what do you expect?"

    How many coaches does he have to go through before he's the problem? Cavanaugh, Schotty, Sparano, and coming soon to a theater of excuses near you, Rex.
    Are you saying the level of talent/OC the Jets have had recently shouldn't have played a role in Mark's production?

    And if you're not, then to what extent do you think it should have "hurt" Sanchez's development?

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by John_0515 View Post
    Simple question. And I wish the answer was different, but:

    Has Sanchez improved over the last 3 years?
    Simple question and I'm glad the answer is different for this year.

    Has Rex Ryan/Sparano/Shotty improved as offensive minded coaches the last 3 years ???

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by 56mehl56 View Post
    Simple question and I'm glad the answer is different for this year.

    Has Rex Ryan/Sparano/Shotty improved as offensive minded coaches the last 3 years ???
    Ummm this!!

    How anyone can still remotely defend Shotty or Sparano at this point is beyond me...We have more separation from the WR/TE position in these last few preseason games than in the last 4 years combined under those two!!

    And it is not because Sanchez all of sudden has transformed into Montanna!! MM is the difference and it is obvious!

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by OCCH View Post
    Are you saying the level of talent/OC the Jets have had recently shouldn't have played a role in Mark's production?

    And if you're not, then to what extent do you think it should have "hurt" Sanchez's development?
    Of course coaching plays a big role in development / production, but I don't believe a bad coach can hold back talent. A QB with top-15 ability isn't going to be ranked as the worst starter in the NFL because of bad coaching.

    Can good coaches (which we can conclude is the rep for MM & Lee) make improvements? Of course. But can they get Sanchez into the top-15? No, I don't think so. They can improve some of his traits and hide some weaknesses through schemes, but they aren't going to transform the guy into an upper-tier player when he's never displayed that ability.

    Think about the "coach" argument - it's not like Sanchez had Norv Turner for a year, put up good numbers and was then turned over to garbage like Sparano and Cavanaugh. Any good plays or games Sanchez has had have come while under the tutelage of those guys. So coaches can't prevent a guy from playing well...and the amount of good plays the guy makes speaks to his overall ability to play the position.

    We'll see how he does with MM / Lee, I do think that combination will end this debate one way or the other.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Ray19 View Post
    What I'm saying is, one of Sanchez' biggest problems the last two years especially has been coaching and development, Cavanaugh was horrible, and Sparano was a train wreck, I've said this countless times, and is one of the cruxes of my defense of Sanchez. I want to see how Sanchez responds to MM and Lee.
    So is it safe to say that you believe that MM and Lee are unassailable as "good coaches", and that if Sanchez fails to perform under their system in 2013, "bad coaching" is not a valid excuse?

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Ray19 View Post
    What I'm saying is, one of Sanchez' biggest problems the last two years especially has been coaching and development, Cavanaugh was horrible, and Sparano was a train wreck, I've said this countless times, and is one of the cruxes of my defense of Sanchez. I want to see how Sanchez responds to MM and Lee.
    Forget 2012 for a second...weren't Cavanaugh and Schotty the coaches in '09 & '10?

    So what changed in '11? Was it that those two knucklehead coaches decided to torpedo Sanchez's development? Or was it because the overall talent on the team was lessened, exposing more flaws in Sanchez than had been seen in his first two years?

    If one of Sanchez's biggest problems in 2011 was coaching and development, why wasn't that a problem in the first two seasons? You know, the ones with those magical playoff victories in which he threw for about the same yardage in 4 total games as Aaron Rodgers did in 2 during his 2010 run.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    So is it safe to say that you believe that MM and Lee are unassailable as "good coaches", and that if Sanchez fails to perform under their system in 2013, "bad coaching" is not a valid excuse?
    You will not get a response to this question.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenWave View Post
    Forget 2012 for a second...weren't Cavanaugh and Schotty the coaches in '09 & '10?

    So what changed in '11? Was it that those two knucklehead coaches decided to torpedo Sanchez's development? Or was it because the overall talent on the team was lessened, exposing more flaws in Sanchez than had been seen in his first two years?

    If one of Sanchez's biggest problems in 2011 was coaching and development, why wasn't that a problem in the first two seasons? You know, the ones with those magical playoff victories in which he threw for about the same yardage in 4 total games as Aaron Rodgers did in 2 during his 2010 run.
    The personel for Rex's vaunted G&P were no longer adequate to play that scheme. Instead of adapting to the personel they had ,they tried to force feed the G&P. The ripple effect was Sanchez was placed in many more adverse passing situations ( ie 3 rd and long) and w/o the threat of the run the pass rushers were pinning their ears back and going full tilt at Sanchez. Sure he struggled as any QB would in this situation. The myth that they expanded his role and he couldn't handle it is a nice deflection of blame off of where it really lies the FO/CS and then #6.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenWave View Post
    You will not get a response to this question.
    Why not??. The short answer is yes Sanchez needs to produce with this offensive set of coaches.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by 56mehl56 View Post
    Why not??. The short answer is yes Sanchez needs to produce with this offensive set of coaches.
    I meant from Ray specifically, but agreed.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by 56mehl56 View Post
    Simple question and I'm glad the answer is different for this year.

    Has Rex Ryan/Sparano/Shotty improved as offensive minded coaches the last 3 years ???
    You haven't answered the first one. As an individual player with the decisions he makes, has he improved? Don't counter a legitimate question with one trying to defend him. What defense do you have for the screen pass to the DE? Marty's fault?

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Ray19 View Post
    No, but that is irrelevant in the spirit of cleaning slate with offensive coaching overhaul. Cav and Sparano wrecked Sanchez and the offense.
    I want Sanchez to crush the doubts and win the starting job. Throw a great few series and get off the field. He can't do that without showing that he has a bonehead decision in him, STILL. I want him so badly to throw 30 TDs this season and shut everyone up.

    He doesn't look like he's going to do that. He looks the same as the last 2 years. A nice pass here, a nice pass there, and a bunch of overthrows, silly dancing around in the pocket. Where's his command? I watched the Giants last night, Eli has command, despite some of the stupid things he does. Maybe Sanchez will improve as the season goes on, but that's taking away from Geno's chance to improve. We know what we have with Sanchez right now. It's going to take something dramatic to keep him around.

  20. #180
    Let me add that I concede the fact that the coaching has a lot to do with his progress as an NFL QB, BUT, you can't coach the defeatist attitude that comes out at the end of the seasons. You can't coach some of the bonehead decisions he's made. What NFL QB has thrown more INTs to defensive ends? That's a trend.

    Sanchez has an upside, and we've seen flashes of it. He's nowhere near that right now, and has an anchor that he's wearing around his neck. He needs to do something dramatic, take control and be the top flight QB we've all been waiting for.

    Or move aside and give someone else a chance. Don't be like Pennington and try and play when you're injured. You're hurting the team. Sanchez is injured as well, but upstairs in the head right now.

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