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Thread: Should Namath be in the Hall of Fame?

  1. #101
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    DESERVES the HALL...............


  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordy View Post
    Kenny Stabler should be in the HOF.
    Kenny Stabler is not in the Hall? ah F him he is a Raider.

  3. #103
    Read this (Too many charts to post):

    http://www.footballperspective.com/j...d-quarterback/

    And then this:

    http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=6003

    Joe Namath is a legitimate Hall of Fame Quarterback
    Posted by Jason Lisk on February 12, 2010.« Amazing numbers in contextCheck Out Olympics at Sports-Reference.com! ».If you haven't been keeping up with the comments to the previous post about amazing stats and context, well, shame on you, because there has been a lot of interesting discussion about a lot of things. One of the things that came up was a discussion of player talent with some references to Joe Namath. I'm going to just quote some comments from BSK, responding to JWL:

    Are you we thinking of the same Joe Namath? He of the 173/220 TD/INT ratio? Of the 62-63-4 record as a starter? Of the career completion percentage of 50.1%? Of the career 65.5 passer rating? And while perhaps Namath would have had a better career despite his injury, the fact is the injury happened, his career numbers were pretty poor, and by no legitimate statistical measure can you say he was a legit HoF. Take away the story of Super Bowl III and his personality and it wouldn't even be up for discussion. And that is the problem with the HoF.

    And later . . .

    Now, what happened on the field obviously went better for Namath than (Bo) Jackson, but neither really did anything particularly exceptional when it's all said and done with. My point was that there are supremely talented players who, for one reason or another, don't live up to that talent (or the perception of their talent). Unfortunately, we cannot give them credit for what they did not actually accomplish. Namath gets no bonus points for what might have been had he not hurt his leg before he even got to the NFL, just like Jackson gets no bonus points for what might have been. To say that Namath was a top 5 QB and then say that my statistical demonstration of exactly why he wasn't is off the mark is laughable at best.

    If you read the title of this post, you might correctly guess that I am going to try to show that by legitimate statistical measures, Namath was a legitimate Hall of Famer. While I am quoting BSK here, because he just happens to be the one making comments in a post this week, I don't think he is exactly in the minority. I see lots of comments about Joe Namath not being a Hall of Fame caliber quarterback, or talking about how bad his numbers were. Joe Posnanski wrote about Namath and his "shockingly bad" numbers on his blog two years ago.

    I guess I should first point out that Chase Stuart wrote a series of posts on the Greatest Quarterbacks of All-Time last summer, and in the most recent version, Namath ranked #24 all-time. Now, Chase is a Jets fan, so perhaps you think that Chase, just because he sponsors Namath's player page at PFR, was cooking the books to make Namath look better. Actually, we had a lot of discussion behind the scenes about that series. Chase was contemplating including a completion percentage calculation as part of the updated formula, and I am actually the one who deterred him by showing him some numbers about teams with similar YPA's and different completion percentages, and the resulting win/loss and points scored. I should probably do a separate post on that this off-season, so I'll just say that for now, it didn't appear that including completion percentage would actually better measure value. Namath, as we know, had a relatively low completion percentage, so including that would have lowered him in the rankings.

    So, we see that in what I would hope would pass as a legitimate statistical measure, Joe Namath ranks as a valid Hall of Famer, even without "the guarantee" and the New York media. So let's break down that a little further and discuss why some think he is not, and why I think he is.

    1. When we cite things like quarterback rating, completion percentage, and interception ratio, we are going to find that they do not favor Namath. Of course, quarterback rating is over-reliant on completion percentage, and interception percentage also plays a big factor, so mentioning those things and also citing qb rating is redundant.

    2. As we know, qb rating does not include sack percentage, though I argued a few months ago that it should. This also disfavors Namath when we cite qb rating, because he had a quick release, which is statistically confirmed by his extremely low sack percentage relative to his era.

    3. I talked about quarterback personality types this summer and one of the traits I used was the Gambler trait. If you threw more interceptions and more incompletions because you were avoiding sacks, you were a Gambler in my book, and Namath was an extreme Gambler. Of course, this isn't necessarily bad for your point production and value, even though it is bad for your blessed qb rating. I actually wrote a modest proposal for a Kansas City area sports blog entitled Matt Cassel needs to throw MORE interceptions, where I discuss some of these things. Holding the ball and taking sacks can be as costly or more costly than throwing some interceptions by throwing the ball before you are ready. In Namath's case, we are underselling how good he was when we don't also cite his sack data. His effective completion percentage (completions divided by total passes plus sacks) ranks him much better, and in my opinion, more accurately provides a full picture of a quarterback's contribution.

    4. Completion percentage is vastly over-rated. Again, I will probably have a separate post sometime this off-season. I also looked at quarterbacks with similar passer ratings, but different sub-ratings in the four categories, and you will probably be interested in the results as they relate to how frequently, say, a qb with a 90 rating that is dropped down by a bad completion percentage wins and scores, compared to one that is propped up by a good one.

    5. Most people agree that yards per attempt is a better indicator of passing value, and Namath exceeded 8.0 yards per attempt in 1967 and 1968, and was at 7.0 or higher every year between ages 23 and 32. Using our advanced passing table which adjusts to league average, he was above average in that category in every one of those seasons. He was insanely above average in 1972 (over two standard deviations above the league average).

    6. When we look at adjusted net yards per attempt, which does include his sack rate and his interception rate (but does not include completion percentage), we see a well above average quarterback for most of his career. We don't have reliable sack data for individual quarterbacks before 1969, but extrapolating his career sack rate after 1969 (combined with his completion percentage and interception rate) we can make a pretty good guess that he was also good at avoiding sacks before 1969. From 1969 forward, which would be after he won the Super Bowl and most think he stopped being a good quarterback, he was over a standard deviation better than the league in 1969, 1971 and 1972. He was above average in 1973 and 1974 as well. The only year he was average was in 1970, when he played in only 5 games. So, using adjusted net yards per attempt, rather than quarterback rating, we see that he was a well above average quarterback from ages 24 to 31.

    7. His numbers need to be put in context of his era, which we can do with things like our Advanced Passing Table, as interception rates and sack rates and completion percentage were all much lower than they are today.

    Of course, all of the above is why he ranks in the top 30 all-time on Chase's list, but I just wanted to spell out why that was, and why I disagree with assessments that selectively cite things like qb rating and completion percentage. I don't know how talented he was relative to other quarterbacks. I do know that he ranks in the top 30 by what I think is a pretty good objective measure, which takes into account rate stats and total attempts to derive value.

    And he is ranked in the top 30 despite missing a substantial portion of what would be the prime years for a lot of quarterbacks (missing 28 games between ages 27 and 30). The one year he played almost a full season during that stretch (1972), he led the league in passing yards, touchdowns, yards per attempt, adjusted yards per attempt, net yards per attempt, and adjusted net yards per attempt. Oh, and he completed 50% of his passes, so he sucked. The Jets went 7-6 when he started that year, but it was because they ranked 19th out of 26 teams in points allowed, and not because they finished 2nd in points scored.

    And he is ranked in the top 30 despite hanging around too long and playing broken down and on bad knees, and putting up awful numbers at the end of his career. We don't know what he would have been if he had stayed healthy (though it's not going out on a limb to say he would rank higher), but let's be clear. His career numbers were not "pretty poor", unless you worship at the Church of the Blessed Quarterback Rating, and ignore everything else.
    /END THREAD

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by southparkcpa View Post
    While I agree with Klecko..... you can be sure, unfortunately, others aren't. HOFer Joe Dellamilleire (lives here in Charlotte, I know fairly well) said Klecko was amongst the best D men he EVER faced.

    PLEASE..end this thread.
    Im here in South florida, and Dwight Stevenson,[HOF],has said the same thing many times.And he faced him twice a year

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by greygoose11 View Post
    Found this article from bleacher report a few years ago

    Why "Broadway Joe" Namath Should Not Be in the Hall of Fame

    NEXT ARTICLE*»

    Chris*YoungJul. 07, 2010

    314Comments83*SharesJoe Namath*should*notbe in the*Pro Football Hall of Fame.Most Hall of Fame quarterbacks have thrown for 200-plus touchdowns.Throughout his 13-year career with theNew York Jets, Namath threw more interceptions (220)*than touchdowns (173). He averaged 17 interceptions a year and eclipsed 20 five times in his career.Hall of Fame coach Bill Walsh stated that Namath was "the most beautiful, accurate, stylish passer with the quickest release I've ever seen."Let’s talk about his accuracy—Namath averaged a remarkably low completion percentage of 50.1 throughout his career.* He also completed fewer than 50 percent seven seasons throughout his career—I think that contradicts the great Bill Walsh’s statement.Obviously, after going over his touchdowns, interceptions and completion percentage, I would imagine his quarterback rating was drained into the sewers as well.Don Shula stated that Namath was "one of the three smartest quarterbacks of all time." Namath doctored up an “astonishing” 65.5 quarterback rating. *“Broadway Joe” had a hard time winning games as well. He played in 129 games and only won 62. His 48 percent career winning percentage also included only 16 fourth quarter comebacks.Namath led the league in passing yards three times (1966, 1967, and 1972) in his career, while throwing more interceptions (76) than touchdowns (64) in those seasons combined.He also only threw for a career total of 27,663 passing yards, averaging just over 2,100 yards a season and led the league in interceptions four times during his career—1966 (27), 1967 (28), 1974 (22), and 1975 (28).In the five years he made the Pro Bowl, Namath recorded a total of 98 interceptions. Come on Joe, I'm sure you could have thrown a couple more to get 100.If another football team was dumb enough to let Ryan Leaf play a full career, Joe Namath probably wouldn't be able to hold the one-time No. 1 draft pick's jock.I'm not really sure how you let someone into the Hall of Fame when he only averaged 10 games a year throughout a 13-year career. Maybe “Broadway Joe” was elected because he made the famous*guarantee win over the great Johnny Unitas. As far as I'm concerned, that is not*a reason to be in the Hall of Fame.After boldly guaranteeing a victory prior to the game,*Jets*quarterback Joe Namath completed 17 out of 28 passes for 206 yards and was named the Super Bowl's Most Valuable Player. However, he did not throw one touchdown pass, or any passes at all in the fourth quarter.*In fact, Matt Snell was the key player in the Jets' ball-control offense during the 16-7 upset of the*Colts. He carried 30 times for a then-Super Bowl record 121 yards and in the second quarter went four yards around the left end to score the Jets' only touchdown.He also helped set up a trio of Jim Turner field goals that finally put the game away for the Jets in the second half.Snell should have been the*NFL’s Super Bowl III MVP.When you look at his career stats and compare them to other Hall of Famers or future Hall of Famers, it becomes apparent that Joe Namath is the worst player in the NFL’s Hall of Fame.He should be voted out.
    So this ignorant jackoff just completely ignores what Bill Walsh and Don Shula had to say about Namath. Riiight. Because what do these guys know about QB's? He even mocks Walsh with the "great" comment. Ignoramus.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by GenoT View Post
    Im here in South florida, and Dwight Stevenson,[HOF],has said the same thing many times.And he faced him twice a year
    That's a serious endorsement, because not only is Dwight a HOF player, many consider him to be the best center who ever played.

    Klecko absolutely deserves to be in the HOF. I can only hope someday he will get in.

  7. #107
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    Haven't read the thread but I think this is a bit of a generational problem. People are way too caught up in stats these days. Stats lie no matter what those idiots on ESPN tell you.

    There is no way to quantify Namath's value to the Jets or the NFL. He is priceless. He is an icon.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by DDNYjets View Post
    Haven't read the thread but I think this is a bit of a generational problem. People are way too caught up in stats these days. Stats lie no matter what those idiots on ESPN tell you.

    There is no way to quantify Namath's value to the Jets or the NFL. He is priceless. He is an icon.
    Agreed. The focus on fantasy football have created an overvaulted behavior when it comes to stats. Namath is in the HOF for a couple of reasons.

    1. He glamourized the QB position. Brady marrying Gisele? Peyton in all those commercials? Goes back to Namath.
    2. He won arguably the second most important football game in this history of professional football after "The Greatest Game...." . Not just for the respect of the AFL but for elevating the importance and spectacle of the Super Bowl itself.
    3. First QB to pass for 4,000 yards in a season. He and the other AFL QBs (Lamonica, Dawson, Hadl, etc.) made the forward pass a standard offensive weapon as opposed to the "3 yards and a cloud of dust" NFL.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by greygoose11 View Post
    I know that you tool but you basically answered my questions the legend if Joe Namath is what git him in HOF. He loses super bowl 3 then he doesn't even sniff the HOF
    It probably would've worked against him too. Would've looked like a chump for "guaranteeing" victory and then failing to come through.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAM View Post
    No on talent, yes for what he did to bring legitimacy to the AFC.
    No on talent? How is life at the School for the Blind these days?

  11. #111


    Notice the knee brace. Namath was special. I'm almost 100% sure that those that disagree never saw him play.

  12. #112
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    Forget about on fld, this guy should be in the Hall of Fame with what he accomplished off fld!!

    This guy was amazing, he partied like no one else and still played Like a champ.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by leftturn3 View Post
    Forget about on fld, this guy should be in the Hall of Fame with what he accomplished off fld!!

    This guy was amazing, he partied like no one else and still played Like a champ.
    I asked Babe Parilli about the rumors that Namath was out partying into the wee hours on the eve of Super Bowl III.

    Parilli said that wasn't at all true and that the Jets leaked that to get into the heads of the Colts.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordy View Post
    I asked Babe Parilli about the rumors that Namath was out partying into the wee hours on the eve of Super Bowl III.

    Parilli said that wasn't at all true and that the Jets leaked that to get into the heads of the Colts.
    He partied and was a part owner of a bar, Bachelor's Three on Broadway. Hence the name Broadway Joe.

    He must of did something right as he was recruited by the Yankees, a basketball start in HS with a tremendous vertical, and Alabama football star in college.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SONNY WERBLIN View Post


    Notice the knee brace. Namath was special. I'm almost 100% sure that those that disagree never saw him play.
    I have that pic hanging in my office. Bear Bryant said Namath was the best athlete he ever coached, and Vince Lombardi once said that if he had 2 good knees, Namath would have to be outlawed... He was plain and simple one of the greats of all time.

    Agree with you 110%, whoever disagrees never saw him play.

  16. #116
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    Football, more than any other sport is one where stats dont tell the whole story. And also more than any other sport is one in which trying to apply states from one era to another is equally dumb.

    If you have to ask if Namath deserved to be in the Hall there is a problem.

    For the person who asked.

  17. #117
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    He is the reason I am a New York Jets fan. Yes he belongs in the HOF.
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by RMJK View Post
    He partied and was a part owner of a bar, Bachelor's Three on Broadway. Hence the name Broadway Joe.

    He must of did something right as he was recruited by the Yankees, a basketball start in HS with a tremendous vertical, and Alabama football star in college.
    Wrong, they called him Broadway Joe viz. the SI cover from 1965 long before



    Wrong again, Bachelors III was @ 798 Lexington Avenue near 62nd St...the East Side

    At least 6 MLB teams were interested in Namath - Yankees for one, Cubs were said to have offered a 50K bonus
    Last edited by Jungle Shift Jet; 09-26-2013 at 04:26 PM.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jungle Shift Jet View Post
    Wrong, they called him Broadway Joe viz. the SI cover from 1965 long before



    Wrong again, Bachelors III was @ 798 Lexington Avenue near 62nd St...the East Side
    Correct. The name was given to him by one of his lineman AFTER that magazine cover cameout. Good catch.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by southparkcpa View Post
    Correct. The name was given to him by one of his lineman AFTER that magazine cover cameout. Good catch.
    Good call, he got the name right after it came out. The day SI came out copies of the magazine were all over the Jets locker and when the players came in one of the lineman said "Joe, Broadway Joe" and it stuck.

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