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Thread: Here's my take on the government shutdown...

  1. #1

    Here's my take on the government shutdown...

    I work for the government, or at least I did depending on how you view this.

    Where I turn a nut with a wrench for the government, I was considered to be a "non-essential" employee. That means I just got furloughed this morning.

    The overwhelming thought process on the part of government employees where I work was this:

    NO ONE pretends to know how to cure the health care crisis. It's a very complicated issue. With that said, I cannot possibly see how the government would be able to fix this. I've always known that anything the government touches, generally turns to sh*t. There's no evidence to say government controlled health care will be able to control costs. None whatsoever. If anything, I am inclined to believe the opposite.

    With that said, I thought the last offer made was IMO very telling. That offer sought to put a 1 year moratorium on Obama Care. It also sought to make ALL of our politicians bound to the very same Obama Care as the citizens.

    Well, it got turned down flat.

    What that says to me isn't so much that democrats want Obama care to go active as it says they are unwilling to live by the laws they are setting for the ordinary citizens.

    To better explain it:

    Socialism is for the people, NOT for the socialist.

    If you are democrat and do not agree with the above statement, I have a question for you:

    Wouldn't it at least be FAIR for our politicians to have to pioneer this new government health care system right along side the people?

    Honestly, anyone that knows me knows I am a conservative and will always be. With that said, I would like to have the resident democrats on this board chime in on those questions. I do not want this to become some sort of pissing match. Just an honest conversation about your thoughts on Obama Care. Whether you think it is OK to require people to purchase health care? If you think it is correct to have the IRS running Obama Care. But mostly my last question, which is do you think it is FAIR for our politicians to be exempt from such a plan?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Mainejet View Post
    I work for the government, or at least I did depending on how you view this.

    Where I turn a nut with a wrench for the government, I was considered to be a "non-essential" employee. That means I just got furloughed this morning.

    The overwhelming thought process on the part of government employees where I work was this:

    NO ONE pretends to know how to cure the health care crisis. It's a very complicated issue. With that said, I cannot possibly see how the government would be able to fix this. I've always known that anything the government touches, generally turns to sh*t. There's no evidence to say government controlled health care will be able to control costs. None whatsoever. If anything, I am inclined to believe the opposite.

    With that said, I thought the last offer made was IMO very telling. That offer sought to put a 1 year moratorium on Obama Care. It also sought to make ALL of our politicians bound to the very same Obama Care as the citizens.

    Well, it got turned down flat.

    What that says to me isn't so much that democrats want Obama care to go active as it says they are unwilling to live by the laws they are setting for the ordinary citizens.

    To better explain it:

    Socialism is for the people, NOT for the socialist.

    If you are democrat and do not agree with the above statement, I have a question for you:

    Wouldn't it at least be FAIR for our politicians to have to pioneer this new government health care system right along side the people?

    Honestly, anyone that knows me knows I am a conservative and will always be. With that said, I would like to have the resident democrats on this board chime in on those questions. I do not want this to become some sort of pissing match. Just an honest conversation about your thoughts on Obama Care. Whether you think it is OK to require people to purchase health care? If you think it is correct to have the IRS running Obama Care. But mostly my last question, which is do you think it is FAIR for our politicians to be exempt from such a plan?
    Actually there is. Its called the VA. The VA provides quality health care by just about every measurable standard with controlled costs

  3. #3
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    Just a few points.

    Healthcare is a Big business that operates for profit. It includes doctors, nurses,hospitals,insurance companies,pharmaceutical companies, etc.

    In business you want to make a profit and it is not in the best interest of your company to take on losses. If someone is poor and needs an operation that costs $150,000 but only make $20,000 a year. What do you do. Business don't want that person because it is not profitable.

    Now with Obama care the cost of that $150,000 operation could get covered and gov't substities help pay for it, along with distributing the costs to everyone.

    There is a lot of corruption in the medical industry. Over billing of Medicare is a good example. When you question the medical bills, you get a response "Oh we're so sorry we made a mistake." The billing is all coded and vague.

    Why is the debt ceiling being held hostage to Obama care by the few in the tea party. The bills were approved by congress and now they must be paid. So you are out of work right now due to a few conservatives who want to repeal Obama care even if it is the law of the land.

  4. #4
    Here is my take:

    The battle is over, the right lost. Obamacare, and eventually a Single-Payer Govt. Controlled System, are inevitabillities.

    This choice, the shutdown, is a poorly thought out tactic that only sounds good in the echo-chamber of the most aggressive right-wing.

    It will not succeed (fail in it's objective) and will be harmful long-term to efforts on this and other issues (political fallout).

    Put simply, the battle over Social Welfarism and Government power has, IMO, been lost and the course of the nation (directed by it's people, not just (D)) is somewhat set in stone now.

    You don't have to like it, but that dislike will not change it. 50 years from now we'll look very much like the UK, except with a 60% non-white majority, full amnesty for immigration (i.e. open borders in fact if not in law), full socialized healthcare and energy industries.

  5. #5
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    First off, lobbying plays a large role in why substantive change is overly complex. Simplicity is far more achievable without every special interest in the healthcare industry raising and doling out money to politicians for their own ends. This makes the legislation overly complex as there are more people on the sidelines calling plays for exemptions/clauses that benefit their industry.

    But the reason that's especially a problem with the Affordable Care Act is that it's not a public healthcare system, it's instead a mandate to buy private insurance - a mandate because in order for the government to get the insurance industry to capitulate on their worst practices and cover all those sick/terminal people they wouldn't give a policy to, we have to mandate everyone have insurance, even those who don't need it, to makeup the difference.

    It's not originally a liberal plan. Liberals in our history, like Roosevelt and Truman called for national health insurance. This a Nixonian/Heritage Foundation plan - a compromise plan from old-school Republicans to combat rising costs while maintaing a free-market healthcare system.

    To your point about politicians, well, if we had a national system, Congress would have the same healthcare as most of us.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    Here is my take:

    The battle is over, the right lost. Obamacare, and eventually a Single-Payer Govt. Controlled System, are inevitabillities.

    This choice, the shutdown, is a poorly thought out tactic that only sounds good in the echo-chamber of the most aggressive right-wing.

    It will not succeed (fail in it's objective) and will be harmful long-term to efforts on this and other issues (political fallout).

    Put simply, the battle over Social Welfarism and Government power has, IMO, been lost and the course of the nation (directed by it's people, not just (D)) is somewhat set in stone now.

    You don't have to like it, but that dislike will not change it. 50 years from now we'll look very much like the UK, except with a 60% non-white majority, full amnesty for immigration (i.e. open borders in fact if not in law), full socialized healthcare and energy industries.
    and Atlas Shrugged begins.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by kennyo7 View Post
    Actually there is. Its called the VA. The VA provides quality health care by just about every measurable standard with controlled costs
    Yes, and they're subsidized by your private health insurance.

    VA is guaranteed "best price". They even get to take into consideration discounts provided for things they will not do.

    The VA "controls cost" by driving up everyone else's health insurance premium. Same with medicare btw.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Mainejet View Post
    Whether you think it is OK to require people to purchase health care?

    If you think it is correct to have the IRS running Obama Care.

    But mostly my last question, which is do you think it is FAIR for our politicians to be exempt from such a plan?
    1. Why is healthcare insurance special? We make people buy car insurance, homeowner's insurance, can't open a business without liability insurance. What aren't these my choice?

    2. Would you prefer a whole new gov't agency?

    3. Fair, no. But again, they are exempt from many things us little people aren't. (Like government shutdowns) This is nothing new.

    Your beloved GOP has stabbed you in the back Maine. I honestly hope you aren't out of work too long.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by kennyo7 View Post
    Actually there is. Its called the VA. The VA provides quality health care by just about every measurable standard with controlled costs
    And piss poor service. Trust me I have been there. I am a veteran. It's a complete pain in the A$$ dealing with them.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainejet View Post
    And piss poor service. Trust me I have been there. I am a veteran. It's a complete pain in the A$$ dealing with them.
    I'm a vet also and have been impressed with their service so far; it's not perfect but better than my healthcare doctors. I go to the VA and get taken within 15 minutes of my appt.; the HC Dr. makes me wait an hour at least.

    Perhaps it is the location. VA is free or close to it. What's not to like.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Mainejet View Post
    And piss poor service. Trust me I have been there. I am a veteran. It's a complete pain in the A$$ dealing with them.
    As both a Veteran and a Physician who has worked both in private practice and the VA I can tell you that this is untrue. If by "piss poor service" you mean you have to wait for things that are not considered medical emergency , or are can not get medical tests that are not necessary then yes. But if we are looking to cut the costs of healthcare spending then these things have to be eliminating. By every health care measure, the care at the VA is considered superior.

  12. #12
    The VA saves a lot by being allowed to negotiate with the pharmaceuticals for drug prices. If everyone was allowed to do the same it would amount to a tremendous savings in healthcare spending. Of course the pharmaceutical lobby has been effective in preventing this

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by FF2 View Post
    1. Why is healthcare insurance special? We make people buy car insurance, homeowner's insurance, can't open a business without liability insurance. What aren't these my choice?

    2. Would you prefer a whole new gov't agency?

    3. Fair, no. But again, they are exempt from many things us little people aren't. (Like government shutdowns) This is nothing new.

    Your beloved GOP has stabbed you in the back Maine. I honestly hope you aren't out of work too long.
    First of all FF2, I must commend you for being a man and actually answering my questions. Some here are just willing to post some drivel and take off. As I already said, I want democrats to come here and answer the questions.

    Second of all, I'll tell you why health insurance is special. NO ONE requires that you buy car insurance, NO ONE. Not your state, not your federal government. NO ONE. But where you drive a car (in all likelihood), YOU run the risk of potentially crashing into my car. If the on scene police officer decides that you caused the accident, then you are LIABLE. Hence, the reason we have LIABILITY insurance. It is not car insurance that is required by law. Only insurance in case you are involved in an accident and it is determined that you are at fault.

    Just because it is insurance, DOES NOT mean it has any similarities to health insurance. Health Insurance involves insuring YOURSELF, not anyone else, against the costs of medical bills in the off chance you get sick. In a hospital, we are not going to accidentally crash into someone elses car and therefore, health insurance is not defined as being LIABILITY insurance.

    Two different entities. And you trying to intertwine the two, does not change the facts. That is that they are COMPLETELY different animals.

    2) NO, as a matter of fact I would not prefer whole new bunch of fat bureaucrats perusing my personal medical information. As a matter of fact, I do not want ANYONE perusing my personal information except the insurance company I choose to trust.

    But the bigger danger here is allowing the IRS, of all agencies, to be involved with this. Just as much as they are being called out for giving conservative groups a hard time with their taxes and requests to become tax exempt organizations, they can now decide their HEALTH. Does that strike as at all dangerous? They are the most powerful, invasive organization on the planet, they can take your money without asking and ask questions later. So, if by chance, they decided that FF2 was a useless jerk (their words not mine) and they just did not like him, they could just say what the f*ck, lets rob FF2's bank accounts and make him broke. That ought to make that jerk suffer.

    Now if you do not think they already do that? I can name several examples where they have already done that.

    Now, you want them being in control of what health care you could potentially get? If they did not like FF2, they could decide he cannot have that new cancer drug that he desperately needs to save his life. In other words, they have signed your own death warrant. You honestly want ONE government agency to have that kind of power over you? That would be like trusting Al Capone with a switchblade.

    3) That doesn't make it right! Does it? Honestly, you tell me, is it right JUST because they have wronged us many other times in the past? NO. Two wrongs do not make a right. They are still two WRONGS.

    So stop trying to explain it away. ANSWER the damn question, FF2. YOU know just as well as I do that these f*cking a$$holes, republican or democrat, should NOT be exempted from ANYTHING that you and I have to endure as citizens. Or else how the f*ck will they ever know what it is like?

    It's hypocritical in its very origin and you know that just as well as I do.

    In closing, thank you for the vote of support. But looking at the news, it appears as though I am going to have to get on unemployment for the time being? They are saying on FOX right now that this is expected to last for several weeks. Or at least right up until the debt ceiling debate gets going again.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by kennyo7 View Post
    As both a Veteran and a Physician who has worked both in private practice and the VA I can tell you that this is untrue. If by "piss poor service" you mean you have to wait for things that are not considered medical emergency , or are can not get medical tests that are not necessary then yes. But if we are looking to cut the costs of healthcare spending then these things have to be eliminating. By every health care measure, the care at the VA is considered superior.
    My father was treated for various illnesses at the VA Hospital in Lyons, NJ. It was a really good experience and a well run hospital. I was impressed with the level of care.

  15. #15
    In every case of a Government shutdown, employees that went unpaid during the shutdown were compensated once the shutdown ended.

    If you truly "Work for the Government", the odds are you will not lose much, if anything, in the way of pay for this event.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by kennyo7 View Post
    As both a Veteran and a Physician who has worked both in private practice and the VA I can tell you that this is untrue. If by "piss poor service" you mean you have to wait for things that are not considered medical emergency , or are can not get medical tests that are not necessary then yes. But if we are looking to cut the costs of healthcare spending then these things have to be eliminating. By every health care measure, the care at the VA is considered superior.
    Listen, I'll take your word for it. It may be that way where you are. But it certainly is not where I live. Myself, and any other veteran I know would rather suffer than trying to get seen in Togus, Maine. It's f*cking brutal. Prime example, my uncle that is in his 80's now, needed replacement knees. It took the VA two years with all this bureaucratic BS before he finally got his prosthetic knees. Meanwhile, he was forced to deal with the severe pain associated with deteriorating knees. Meanwhile, this is a democrat mind you, b*tching to high heaven about how bad the VA sucks.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    In every case of a Government shutdown, employees that went unpaid during the shutdown were compensated once the shutdown ended.

    If you truly "Work for the Government", the odds are you will not lose much, if anything, in the way of pay for this event.
    Maybe but maybe not ie., Washington Post:
    That's completely up to Congress. Non-essential workers did get paid retroactively after the 21-day 1995-'96 shutdown. But this time around, some Republicans are already bristling at the idea of paying federal employees for "work they didn't do."

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Mainejet View Post
    Listen, I'll take your word for it. It may be that way where you are. But it certainly is not where I live. Myself, and any other veteran I know would rather suffer than trying to get seen in Togus, Maine. It's f*cking brutal. Prime example, my uncle that is in his 80's now, needed replacement knees. It took the VA two years with all this bureaucratic BS before he finally got his prosthetic knees. Meanwhile, he was forced to deal with the severe pain associated with deteriorating knees. Meanwhile, this is a democrat mind you, b*tching to high heaven about how bad the VA sucks.
    Ken does not care about people pain. Ken only cares about what is "good for all", i.e. Communist Medicine.

    If you must suffer, wait, go untreated or untested so that one unemployed drug addict can have free (i.e. paid for by you) care, Ken would make that choice in a heartbeat.

    Ken would make an excellent Director of the NHS in the UK.

  19. #19
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    Sounds worse than it is. Just like "sequestration". I agree with Fish, our fate is sealed. Ironic when you think about how this country was founded by people who ran from the European model.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    In every case of a Government shutdown, employees that went unpaid during the shutdown were compensated once the shutdown ended.

    If you truly "Work for the Government", the odds are you will not lose much, if anything, in the way of pay for this event.
    Well, that is what I am hoping for. Although I must say I am torn about this. I have NEVER wanted a f*cking dime from anyone unless I earned it via legal means. I truly believe in an honest days pay for an honest days work. I bust my A$$ for the government. Always have. Always will. I take personal pride in my work ethic. I also take it as a higher responsibility because I do in fact working for the TAXPAYERS.

    I DO NOT want to get paid for days I do not work. I WANT to get paid for the days I do work.

    If this ends, and they decide to pay us for all the days we have been furloughed, I will accept it probably because I will desperately need it. But I will feel dirty for essentially having taken a "HAND OUT".

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