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Thread: Jets: # 2 Defense, # 14 Offense

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyjfollower View Post
    I think the question is how well does it measure the effectiveness of a defense rather than how strong of a "determining factor" points allowed in a football game is. Points allowed is certainly a huge factor but it's overly simplistic to consider it the be all end all measure of how good a defense is IMO.
    Why not? I do believe the Jets defense has been placed in many, many hard spots due to Geno's inexperience and proneness for turnovers. Probably more than most teams. But that stuff comes out in the wash. Through time every teams defense gets put in some bad spots. And as I mentioned that statistic is not clouded by extraneous circumstances if they have been subtracted out.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainejet View Post
    Why not? I do believe the Jets defense has been placed in many, many hard spots due to Geno's inexperience and proneness for turnovers. Probably more than most teams. But that stuff comes out in the wash. Through time every teams defense gets put in some bad spots. And as I mentioned that statistic is not clouded by extraneous circumstances if they have been subtracted out.
    I really don't think that stuff "comes out in the wash". There are many other variables. Some teams have much better offenses and special teams than others. Some simply have bad luck. Certainly there is a lot of variance in average starting field position and points allowed by the offense and special teams that in no way reflect how effective a defense is.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainejet View Post
    Why not?
    Hey Maine, can this team rally around Geno Smith?

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyjfollower View Post
    I really don't think that stuff "comes out in the wash". There are many other variables. Some teams have much better offenses and special teams than others. Some simply have bad luck. Certainly there is a lot of variance in average starting field position and points allowed by the offense and special teams that in no way reflect how effective a defense is.
    Well, you may be right about that. I just don't think it would make that much of a difference through time. Or at least not enough of a difference to call points allowed a bad statistic. Yards allowed to me mean nothing more than you do not allow a lot of yards. Which is completely separate and does not account for the points the opposition may have scored against you.

    Points allowed on the other hand, takes that directly into account.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARodFLKeysJetsFan View Post
    Hey Maine, can this team rally around Geno Smith?
    Well, they sure as hell did the other night, ugh? MF that game all but brought me to tears. I have not seen our team play with that kind of inspiration, passion, determination, excitement in two plus seasons. It was truly awe inspiring and I was glued to the TV.

    I am so happy to have seen that in the middle of what I would consider a rebuilding process.

    So now you know just how happy I was with that game. How about you?

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainejet View Post
    Well, you may be right about that. I just don't think it would make that much of a difference through time. Or at least not enough of a difference to call points allowed a bad statistic. Yards allowed to me mean nothing more than you do not allow a lot of yards. Which is completely separate and does not account for the points the opposition may have scored against you.

    Points allowed on the other hand, takes that directly into account.
    What does points allowed directly take into account?

  7. #107
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    The Jets secondary is clearly weaker than it was the last couple of years, but the front 7 is much improved. It can help to cover.

  8. #108
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    points allowed divided by games played. It's the good stat.

    P/E...share price divided by earnings per share. Earnings per share are $profit/earnings divided by all the motherfing common shares out there. p/e allows you to compare companies in the same industry.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyjfollower View Post
    What does points allowed directly take into account?
    The points the opposition scored. To me, yards allowed can be very misleading. It may very well not tell the whole truth. For example, the Jets defense played quite well in my estimation the other night. Limited the Falcons and the amount of yards they were able to gain. But they allowed 28 points, which is not what you're looking for in a defense. Points allowed, on the other hand, takes that into account. It tells more of the whole story than yards allowed. JMO.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainejet View Post
    The points the opposition scored. To me, yards allowed can be very misleading. It may very well not tell the whole truth. For example, the Jets defense played quite well in my estimation the other night. Limited the Falcons and the amount of yards they were able to gain. But they allowed 28 points, which is not what you're looking for in a defense. Points allowed, on the other hand, takes that into account. It tells more of the whole story than yards allowed. JMO.
    I think you need to consider both stats, among other things. Turnovers forced, penalties, strength of the opposing team, etc.

    Let's look at it another way. Here's two scenarios, tell me which defense you believe performed better.

    Scenario 1:
    Kickoff is returned all the way to the 10 yard line.
    1st Down: Defense stuffs the run for -1 yard
    2nd Down: 3 yard run
    3rd Down: Sack for -5 yard loss
    4th Down: FG attempt is good

    Scenario 2:
    Offense loses the ball (fumble recovered by d) on the 1 yard line going in for the score.
    1st Down: 15 yard run up the gut
    1st Down: 20 yard completion
    1st Down: 8 yard run
    2nd Down: 12 yard completion
    1st Down: 30 yard completion
    1st Down: 9 yard run
    false start offense
    2nd Down: 9 yard run
    false start offense
    3rd Down: 5 yard completion
    4th Down: FG Blocked

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by shevys View Post
    With 7 new starters on defense and a rookie QB leading the offense, I couldn't be happier with where we stand right now. The future is looking bright.
    Certainly the Jets are better, and they're right in the hunt for the AFCE and playoffs this year, but they aren't the 2nd ranked defense or the 14th ranked offense. How could they be when they're tied for 21st with the Raiders in points scored and 18th in points allowed?

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pats1960 View Post
    Certainly the Jets are better, and they're right in the hunt for the AFCE and playoffs this year, but they aren't the 2nd ranked defense or the 14th ranked offense. How could they be when they're tied for 21st with the Raiders in points scored and 18th in points allowed?
    I'm trying to point out the obvious #1 stat on defense and offense.

  13. #113
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    Look no further than the Chiefs last year vs. this year. Last year they were the 8th worst team in points against. This year they are #1 in points against. One of the biggest changes is they aren't turning the ball over on offense. Last year they gave up more points off turnovers than anyone.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyjfollower View Post
    I think you need to consider both stats, among other things. Turnovers forced, penalties, strength of the opposing team, etc.

    Let's look at it another way. Here's two scenarios, tell me which defense you believe performed better.

    Scenario 1:
    Kickoff is returned all the way to the 10 yard line.
    1st Down: Defense stuffs the run for -1 yard
    2nd Down: 3 yard run
    3rd Down: Sack for -5 yard loss
    4th Down: FG attempt is good

    Scenario 2:
    Offense loses the ball (fumble recovered by d) on the 1 yard line going in for the score.
    1st Down: 15 yard run up the gut
    1st Down: 20 yard completion
    1st Down: 8 yard run
    2nd Down: 12 yard completion
    1st Down: 30 yard completion
    1st Down: 9 yard run
    false start offense
    2nd Down: 9 yard run
    false start offense
    3rd Down: 5 yard completion
    4th Down: FG Blocked
    Like I said, I believe stuff like that tends to come out in the wash. You obviously think differently. It's a matter of personal preference. Not that any one is any more right than the other. But I do agree that considering both statistics would give you a better idea of what kind of team they are. I'm just saying that if you are asking me to select one of the two, I would choose points allowed.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by 56mehl56 View Post
    What's ironic about that game is many here say if only Gates/Hill etc could hold onto the ball we would have won. What they fail to mention is if the Patriort wr's who ran free deep all night held onto the ball the Jets get blown out.
    Sure looking at the boxscore the turnover's and drops on O cost us the game , but the defense wasn't without its problems.
    Theres the way to look at it.

    The dropped TD and the drop on the 10 didn't really cost us, it was the dropped passes by the team that won. More than a few of those miss connects by the Pats were a result of Brady being rushed, not being able to get comfortable and wait out routes.

    Not getting what any of this has to do with the drops, the O cost us the game vs the Pats
    Last edited by Jet Nut; 10-09-2013 at 09:39 PM.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzsaw View Post
    The team so far is way better than I expected. Rex has done a really nice job in getting the most out of the roster. And while winning is the most important thing, this year's team has been fun to watch as well
    +1, agree totally

    Which you would think would be the way most people looked at this season.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jet Nut View Post
    Theres the way to look at it.

    The dropped TD and the drop on the 10 didn't really cost us, it was the dropped passes by the team that won.

    Not getting what any of this has to do with the drops, the O cost us the game vs the Pats
    All I'm saying if your gonna play the "what if" game you need to look at it from both sides. Sure the drops cost us just like the Pats drops hurt them you can't exclude one and include the other to suit your argument.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by sec.101row23 View Post
    We had this discussion last season and I said the best measure to rank defenses is to use yards allowed, points allowed and turn overs forced. Take the ranking for each and average them out. Thats the best measure IMO to rank a defense, other than wins and losses of course.
    Usually the person trying to make a point will choose the appropriate stat. Your combination of stats is by far the most accurate. If I were a betting man I think I'd win a heck of a lot more (lose a lot less) using your method than a guy who takes the team with the most yards.

    I would also argue that if an offense or special teams help keep points off the board then that counts too. If the offense keeps the ball for long sustained drives and scores, and forces the other team to play catch up, they are a part of the defense. the same goes for special teams that lock an offense up in it's own end or forces a turnover. After all, they are all playing for the same team.
    Last edited by Pats1960; 10-09-2013 at 10:09 PM.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pats1960 View Post
    Usually the person trying to make a point will choose the appropriate stat. Your combination of stats is by far the most accurate. If I were a betting man I think I'd win a heck of a lot more using your method than a guy who takes the team with the most yards.

    I would also argue that if an offense or special teams help keep points off the board then that counts too. If the offense keeps the ball for long sustained drives and scores, and forces the other team to play catch up, they are a part of the defense. the same goes for special teams that lock an offense up in it's own end or forces a turnover. After all, they are all playing for the same team.

    The defense is very good....they just can't cover a tightend...

  20. #120
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    I remember a lot of people saying our roster is devoid of talent, this was rebuilding sequence again, throwaway year one of another long rebuilding process and Rex is an absolute goner (in fact, NEEDED to be to begin rebuilding from scratch).

    I also remember a lot of people saying this is the NFL, most teams are fairly close in talent and just need to perform, we just needed a few roster tweaks and an offensive coordinator worth absolutely anything at all, we'd be right back in contention. Pats 'O' is down this year, 'Phins and Bills both overrated, and it's there if we perform. From there anybody can win in the league if they execute and get "hot" at the right time. That's the modern NFL.

    Hmm....

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