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Thread: Head Coaches

  1. #1

    Head Coaches

    I've notice many comments about whether Rex should be brought back next season, or what he needs to accomplish this season to get a new contract. This has made me think a lot about the "position" of HC and what it means to a team, and I have come to my own personal conclusion that there are only 2 types of HC's in football: Good one's and Bad one's, and all of the good one's are fungible. The good one's know how to win when you give them talented players. The bad one's never win regardless of the hands they are dealt i.e. Wade Phillips, Norv Turner, Dave Wandstadt, etc... Many, many teams have fired a good HC when their team does not win mistakenly blaming the HC for a lack of talent i.e. BB, Jeff Fischer, John Fox. I think the Steelers have really figured this out. Just go out and get yourself a good HC and spend your efforts finding good players. Once the pieces are in place, your "good coach" will win because the excellent players on the team will execute, make plays, and generally make the HC look really smart.

    So, my personal conclusion is that we spend far too much time worrying about finding "THE" HC; an up and coming genius that will make average players great. Well, I'm here to tell you that type of HC does not exist. There are only good coaches and bad coaches. The only question is whether yours is the former or the latter. If I may borrow a slogan from the 1992 presidential election.... It's the personnel stupid.

    I'm curious whether anyone has a HC in mind that falls outside this paradigm.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by SONNY WERBLIN View Post
    I've notice many comments about whether Rex should be brought back next season, or what he needs to accomplish this season to get a new contract. This has made me think a lot about the "position" of HC and what it means to a team, and I have come to my own personal conclusion that there are only 2 types of HC's in football: Good one's and Bad one's, and all of the good one's are fungible. The good one's know how to win when you give them talented players. The bad one's never win regardless of the hands they are dealt i.e. Wade Phillips, Norv Turner, Dave Wandstadt, etc... Many, many teams have fired a good HC when their team does not win mistakenly blaming the HC for a lack of talent i.e. BB, Jeff Fischer, John Fox. I think the Steelers have really figured this out. Just go out and get yourself a good HC and spend your efforts finding good players. Once the pieces are in place, your "good coach" will win because the excellent players on the team will execute, make plays, and generally make the HC look really smart.

    So, my personal conclusion is that we spend far too much time worrying about finding "THE" HC; an up and coming genius that will make average players great. Well, I'm here to tell you that type of HC does not exist. There are only good coaches and bad coaches. The only question is whether yours is the former or the latter. If I may borrow a slogan from the 1992 presidential election.... It's the personnel stupid.

    I'm curious whether anyone has a HC in mind that falls outside this paradigm.
    Good post. I can't think of a reason to disagree. Probably the closest anyone has come to really succeeding while being undermanned is Bill Parcells, although he's had his share of mediocre and losing seasons as well. His last year with the Jets was probably the best coaching job of his entire career. If he hadn't goofed around with Rick Mirer and went to Ray Lucas earlier the Jets may have snuck into the playoffs in 1999.

    Again, I agree that there is largely a group of good coaches and bad coaches. But the bigger piece is the QB in my opinion. A great QB can make an average coach look good. Is Mike McCarthy a "great coach" in Green Bay? Did Norv Turner only last as long as he did in San Diego because Philip Rivers bailed him out a lot? Was Jim Caldwell a great HC in Indianapolis or did Peyton Manning have more to do with it?

    There's no doubt in my mind that QB and HC are the two most important things to get correct on your football team. When both are excellent you have sustained success (see New England for the past decade. Look at Denver over the past two seasons.). When both are bad you have a train wreck (see Jacksonville, Oakland in recent years).

  3. #3
    Both posts, excellent. Where is our coach?

  4. #4
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    Great players can overcome bad coaching, great coaching rarely overcomes bad players.

  5. #5
    I think I agree with your premise somewhat. Problem is I am not sure despite the two AFCCG that I would put Rex in the "good" category. He definitely has some things that are positive, but a lot of negatives too. As an example, we had a "scared" game plan on offense yesterday that basically put us in a situation to fail because Rex has too much respect for some teams. His defense is overrated, and he is calling defensive games that are past the capabilities of the players he has.

  6. #6
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    Obviously there are a few exceptions but you show me a HOF coach and I'll show you the HOF QB that played for him. It's a QB league, always been and always will be. In most cases they go hand in hand.

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    Rex helped build this team, he gets no pass for what talent level the team has

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by LockeJET View Post
    Obviously there are a few exceptions but you show me a HOF coach and I'll show you the HOF QB that played for him. It's a QB league, always been and always will be. In most cases they go hand in hand.
    Well you used to have a shot at a Super Bowl if your defense was that great. I would hardly call Trent Dilfer a great QB. Or Jim McMahon.

    Those days are long gone. The rules are far different now. Where there's talk now about making hits below the knees illegal. Where the hell would you hit a receiver then? LOL.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzsaw View Post
    Rex helped build this team, he gets no pass for what talent level the team has
    Exactly, he's not a GM. He's a coach. Judge him on his coaching, not his scouting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnysd View Post
    I think I agree with your premise somewhat. Problem is I am not sure despite the two AFCCG that I would put Rex in the "good" category. He definitely has some things that are positive, but a lot of negatives too. As an example, we had a "scared" game plan on offense yesterday that basically put us in a situation to fail because Rex has too much respect for some teams. His defense is overrated, and he is calling defensive games that are past the capabilities of the players he has.
    Go read the" How to beat the Steelers" by JI posters they said RUN THE BALL.. So the Jets game plan was wrong we didn't pass enough...When they passed the ball in other games fans said we are passing to much.. Unbelievable how smart hindsight makes some people..

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzsaw View Post
    Rex helped build this team, he gets no pass for what talent level the team has
    You have no idea how much input Rex had/has in shaping the roster. Do you think sending a valuable fourth round pick to Denver was Rex's idea?

    The Jets are on an upward trajectory. You have a team with lots of good pieces. The Jets aren't many pieces away from being really good.

    And the coaching staff is a GOOD one. Damon Harrison went from UDFA to the best run stuffer in the league in a year. Wilkerson has gone from a player drafted from a small school player to all-pro DL. Stephen Hill didn't look like he belonged in the NFL last year, now he looks like a legitimate big play receiver. I can keep going -- Demario Davis, Jeff Cumberland, etc.

  12. #12
    Where would Weeb Ewbank be without Johnny Unitas and Joe Namath?


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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by jetstream23 View Post
    Good post. I can't think of a reason to disagree. Probably the closest anyone has come to really succeeding while being undermanned is Bill Parcells, although he's had his share of mediocre and losing seasons as well. His last year with the Jets was probably the best coaching job of his entire career. If he hadn't goofed around with Rick Mirer and went to Ray Lucas earlier the Jets may have snuck into the playoffs in 1999.

    Again, I agree that there is largely a group of good coaches and bad coaches. But the bigger piece is the QB in my opinion. A great QB can make an average coach look good. Is Mike McCarthy a "great coach" in Green Bay? Did Norv Turner only last as long as he did in San Diego because Philip Rivers bailed him out a lot? Was Jim Caldwell a great HC in Indianapolis or did Peyton Manning have more to do with it?

    There's no doubt in my mind that QB and HC are the two most important things to get correct on your football team. When both are excellent you have sustained success (see New England for the past decade. Look at Denver over the past two seasons.). When both are bad you have a train wreck (see Jacksonville, Oakland in recent years).
    100% agree regarding QB and HC.

    I think if we had Brady, Rex would have had a SB by now.
    However, if BB was our HC (with Mark and/or Geno as our QB), he'd be a 0.500 coach.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by brex View Post
    100% agree regarding QB and HC.

    I think if we had Brady, Rex would have had a SB by now.
    However, if BB was our HC (with Mark and/or Geno as our QB), he'd be a 0.500 coach.
    At the risk of agreeing with ourselves to death, I agree with you.

    There's no doubt in my mind that if Rex Ryan had a QB like Peyton Manning, Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers he would start running out of fingers to put rings on. Think of it this way, the Jets got to 2 AFCCGs in a row with Mark Sanchez and in one of those years they beat Tom Brady on his own field. Swap Brady for Sanchez and what do you think the respective records of Bill Belichick and Rex Ryan would be over the past 4 years?

  15. #15
    Rex Ryan is a good head coach. He's not perfect. Biggest flaw is how he handles the press conferences, and while I personally love it, he should know better in this day and age of ESPN First Take and Manish Mehta's that you can't say anything that won't be taken 100% seriously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzsaw View Post
    Rex helped build this team, he gets no pass for what talent level the team has
    Neither you nor I know exactly how much input Rex has on drafting and FA.....A GM and HC should make moves in harmony, but the final say goes with the GM. Stop blaming Rex for Tanny's blunders.....

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by sec.101row23 View Post
    Great players can overcome bad coaching, great coaching rarely overcomes bad players.
    09-10 Team has some semblance of talent, Sanchez plays below-avg to mediocre(2 AFCCG Game appearances)
    11-12 Talent on the team regresses, Sanchez regresses to a bottom 25-32 QB(8-8, 6-10 records back to back)
    13 Idzik is hired to replace old GM, talent level increases marginally, Geno is drafted and is inconsistent(ranging from good to below avg) 3-3 after 6 games

    Can some of the Rex haters follow my logic here? How can you put the amount of blame you do on this man when he has proven that he can win in this league if given the proper pieces? If he got to 2 AFCCG's with mediocre QB play at best, what happens if he ever finds a QB that can become a top 10-15 QB in this league? IMO the man who shoulders most of the blame for the past 2 seasons was fired. Let the new GM get Rex some pieces and at least finish the last 2 years on his contract. If the results don't come then by all means let him go, but some of you guys blame him for things that may or may not have been in his control, all because you heard ESPN report it

  18. #18
    ELITE COACHES ARE WHAT THIS LEAGUE IS ABOUT, PARCELS BELECHEAT HARBAUGH,

    ONE YEAR AND THE RECORDS GO FROM 1- 15 TO 11 - 6 - IT'S REALLY ABOUT BOTH PLAYERS AND COACHES,
    NOT ONE OR THE OTHER, BUT THE COACHING STAFF IS MORE IMPORTANT,

    THERE ARE GOOD COACHES LIKE REX AND GREAT ONES LIKE WEEB.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by sec.101row23 View Post
    Great players can overcome bad coaching, great coaching rarely overcomes bad players.
    I agree with the second part, but not necessarily the first. Take 1996 and 1997. Essentially the same Jet team went 1-15 under Kotite, then 9-7 under Parcells. There was clearly a lot more talent in '96 than Kotite was getting out of them. If your argument is right, the players should have overcome Kotite's bad coaching.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toooon View Post
    I agree with the second part, but not necessarily the first. Take 1996 and 1997. Essentially the same Jet team went 1-15 under Kotite, then 9-7 under Parcells. There was clearly a lot more talent in '96 than Kotite was getting out of them. If your argument is right, the players should have overcome Kotite's bad coaching.
    Not quite true. In '97, there were 27 new players on the roster...... Parcells did an overhaul. Some of the bigger names remained, but it was mostly a different team.

    Sorry, I went back and checked...... there were 31 new players on the roster.
    Last edited by Laxman; 10-15-2013 at 12:35 PM.

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