Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 89

Thread: Tea Party About To Suffer Defeat (Shutdown/Obamacare)

  1. #1

    Tea Party About To Suffer Defeat (Shutdown/Obamacare)

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...-cancels-vote/

    As expected, Shutdown Ending Deal imminent.

    Government will re-open, all back pay will be paid, no cuts of any kind to the ACA, no spending cuts of any kind, and only a promice to look at it later via budgetary review.

    A full scale (D) victory. Not a single thing was won by (R) here, and they're still taking the majority of the blame in public polling.

    I'll say it again, this is not how to convince people, this is not how to win elections, this is not how to change the law.

    If not for the shutdown, the last two weeks would have been spent with endless reviews of how poorly the ACA is being implemented, and how it's not doing as advertised, and not getting close to the signups needed.

    Instead, we have Tea Party (R) looking like fools, gaining nothing, and distracting the ACA's to-date failure with their own bluster, and theri supporters becomign even more vitriolic and aggressive (which also looks bad to the average voter).

    Thats why you don't go this route, not because the idea is wrong per se, but because it's a no-win situation where the outcome was guaranteed to be loss, nothing gained, and much public face lost.

    Next up in Predictable Politics 101: Tea Party Loyalists claim "Dolchsto▀legende" by the rest of the (R) establishment.
    Last edited by Churchill; 10-16-2013 at 11:40 AM.

  2. #2
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Mendham, NJ
    Posts
    12,928
    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...-cancels-vote/

    As expected, Shutdown Ending Deal imminent.

    Government will re-open, all back pay will be paid, no cuts of any kind to the ACA, no spending cuts of any kind, and only a promice to look at it later via budgetary review.

    A full scale (D) victory. Not a single thing was won by (R) here, and they're still taking the majority of the blame in public polling.

    I'll say it again, this is not how to convince people, this is not how to win elections, this is not how to change the law.

    If not for the shutdown, the last two weeks would have been spent with endless reviews of how poorly the ACA is being implemented, and how it's not doing as advertised, and not getting close to the signups needed.

    Instead, we have Tea Party (R) looking like fools, gaining nothing, and distracting the ACA's to-date failure with their own bluster, and theri supporters becomign even more vitriolic and aggressive (which also looks bad to the average voter).

    Thats why you don't go this route, not because the idea is wrong per se, but because it's a no-win situation where the outcome was guaranteed to be loss, nothing gained, and much public face lost.

    Next up in Predictable Politics 101: Tea Party Loyalists claim "Dolchsto▀legende" by the rest of the (R) establishment.
    While I agree 100% with the vast majority of the principles that the Tea Party believes in, they just look like foolish right now. There was no way to de-fund Obamacare, none. It was a giant waste of time that brought nothing but negativity to the party.

    The best way to repeal Obamacare is just let it get implemented and let it collapse on its own merits. By the time 2016 comes around it will be evident to all just how bad this program is and that major changes will be needed.

    And if I hear any Republican say that Ted Cruz has a shot at winning the presidency in 2016 I will kick them square in the nuts. He will lose worse that McCain did in '08.

  3. #3
    Jets Insider VIP
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    18,367
    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...-cancels-vote/

    As expected, Shutdown Ending Deal imminent.

    Government will re-open, all back pay will be paid, no cuts of any kind to the ACA, no spending cuts of any kind, and only a promice to look at it later via budgetary review.

    A full scale (D) victory. Not a single thing was won by (R) here, and they're still taking the majority of the blame in public polling.

    I'll say it again, this is not how to convince people, this is not how to win elections, this is not how to change the law.

    If not for the shutdown, the last two weeks would have been spent with endless reviews of how poorly the ACA is being implemented, and how it's not doing as advertised, and not getting close to the signups needed.

    Instead, we have Tea Party (R) looking like fools, gaining nothing, and distracting the ACA's to-date failure with their own bluster, and theri supporters becomign even more vitriolic and aggressive (which also looks bad to the average voter).

    Thats why you don't go this route, not because the idea is wrong per se, but because it's a no-win situation where the outcome was guaranteed to be loss, nothing gained, and much public face lost.

    Next up in Predictable Politics 101: Tea Party Loyalists claim "Dolchsto▀legende" by the rest of the (R) establishment.
    I think you are looking at this wrong, all due respect. The TEA party, agree or disagree, is the FIRST movement to be voted in (unlike green party or Libertarians who have NO shot at elected office) and be able to tell their larger part GFY, Ill do what I want.

    It shows that the 2 party system has cracks. Personally, I admire of Cruz and party for standing up this long. Imagine if 5 more seats are won by the Tea party ... not saying I agree BUT I know a congressman personally and can tell you it is hard to buck the establishment. CRUZ did in a minor way.

  4. #4
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    13,557
    Quote Originally Posted by southparkcpa View Post
    I think you are looking at this wrong, all due respect. The TEA party, agree or disagree, is the FIRST movement to be voted in (unlike green party or Libertarians who have NO shot at elected office) and be able to tell their larger part GFY, Ill do what I want.

    It shows that the 2 party system has cracks. Personally, I admire of Cruz and party for standing up this long. Imagine if 5 more seats are won by the Tea party ... not saying I agree BUT I know a congressman personally and can tell you it is hard to buck the establishment. CRUZ did in a minor way.
    +1

    The lines have been drawn and the talkers have been effectively separated from the doers. The next stage for the GOP is to clean out the garbage.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by southparkcpa View Post
    I think you are looking at this wrong, all due respect. The TEA party, agree or disagree, is the FIRST movement to be voted in (unlike green party or Libertarians who have NO shot at elected office) and be able to tell their larger part GFY, Ill do what I want.

    It shows that the 2 party system has cracks. Personally, I admire of Cruz and party for standing up this long. Imagine if 5 more seats are won by the Tea party ... not saying I agree BUT I know a congressman personally and can tell you it is hard to buck the establishment. CRUZ did in a minor way.
    we should be thanking the Tea Party for kicking Obama & the Dems in the Nuts in the last midterm elections...saving our country from an even worse outcome ...

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by JetPotato View Post
    +1

    The lines have been drawn and the talkers have been effectively separated from the doers. The next stage for the GOP is to clean out the garbage.
    The only "garbage" likely to be "cleamed out" is the last fragments of the Tea Party in 2014 and 2016.

    Apart from the lucky few who serve in a artificially safe district, I'd fully expect post this debacle that the last dregs of the Tea Party will be gone shortly, challenged by the Establishment (R) and the fiscal support of the Party itself.

    In the echo chamber of far-right American Politics, this is being called a huge victory and a rallying cry forward.....but thats a very short sighted and myopic viewpoint. From the center, and to the sheeple, it's hard to see anything resembling a victory here, in terms of policy (for which there was no change, and everyone knew there would be no change) and in terms of electabillity (where the Tea Party has been roundly decried as Political Terrorists ready, able and willing to hurt everyone over a policy the people, as a whole, are not as against as some like to believe). What Joe Q. Average voter sees is a fringe element everyone is calling extreme who was willing to hurt them, and everyone, whilst breaking the rules (in their view) to do so over a law that was passed then ok'd by the Supreme Court.

    Right or wrong on the ideas (and you know where I stand on the ACA), the Tea Party is still viewed in general as a fringe, far-right sub-party that isn't supported even in it's own party, and it reviled by the majority of voters.

    Face it, (R) lost the War of Words a long time ago, and the Tea Party is basicly viewed as racist bigots who hate Government altogether and want to destroy the Country. Obviously inaccurate, but so what. It's what the message is, and what most think.

    I won't be holding my breath for some great 2014 electoral uprising.....at least not the way you're thinking.

  7. #7
    Jets Insider VIP
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    One hour. from MetLife
    Posts
    21,695
    One of the Republican ex senators said Cruz is just another Sarah Palin type looking to cash in. He could care less about the Tea Party principles. Everything seems to be about money.

  8. #8
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    LI
    Posts
    20,330
    Disagree WF - they have highlighted the problem in a way that couldn't be ignored; they made it clear that Obuttockscare is a big problem and that they tried to fix it, but not one Dim was willing to even listen.

    Pretty sure they knew going in that the Dims wouldn't budge, and that was part of the plan. Next year, the GOP can say "we warned you about Obuttockscare and look - they wouldn't even negotiate. If you don't like it, vote GOP."

    Pretty smart tactic. Any other way, and the media can ignore it. Media can't ignore a default, though.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by quantum View Post
    Disagree WF - they have highlighted the problem in a way that couldn't be ignored
    You're simply wrong. In two weeks, the only thing the vast majority of voters will remember about this little sideshow is "Tea Party Terrorists Willing to Default and Destroy Everything".

    Again, the only people I hear thinking this is a win is the callers on Rush and Co. and like-minded posters on forums like this.

    Pretty smart tactic.
    We'll see. If Tea Party (R) candidates win 20 seats in 2014, sure, clearly I'm wrong.

    If (R) loses seats, and the Tea Party has less elected officials in 2015 than in 2013, then it will have proven my argument.

    I know what I'll be betting on. If we wind up in 2014 with single-party rule again, it'll be directly attributable to this fiasco.

    On a related note, I found this an interesting take:

    Hume: Tea Party pushed budget stand-off because GOP 'utterly failed' to restrain bloated gov't

    Published October 16, 2013 •
    FoxNews.com


    Fox News senior political analyst Brit Hume explained on "Special Report With Bret Baier" Monday night why Tea Party Republicans originally started their confrontation with Democrats over the bid to defund ObamaCare.


    He argued that they're taking an unconventional approach, because the mainstream GOP has "utterly failed" to stop the growth of government.

    Hume said:

    "Veteran political observers on both the left and right are still trying to figure out what the House Tea Party caucus and its Senate pied piper Ted Cruz were thinking when they insisted on using the threat of a government shutdown to defund ObamaCare.

    "It was a hopeless strategy that has not only failed in its stated goal, but helped send the Republican Party to its lowest favorability ratings ever.

    "In conventional terms, it seems inexplicable, but Senator Cruz and his adherents do not view things in conventional terms. They look back over the past half-century, including the supposedly golden era of Ronald Reagan, and see the uninterrupted forward march of the American left. Entitlement spending never stopped growing. The regulatory state continued to expand. The national debt grew and grew and finally in the Obama years, exploded. They see an American population becoming unrecognizable from the free and self-reliant people they thought they knew. And they see the Republican Party as having utterly failed to stop the drift toward an unfree nation supervised by an overweening and bloated bureaucracy. They are not interested in Republican policies that merely slow the growth of this leviathan. They want to stop it and reverse it. And they want to show their supporters they'll try anything to bring that about.

    "And if some of those things turn out to be reckless and doomed, well so be it."

  10. #10
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    19,737
    Tea Party is going nowhere. Many of them are beloved in their districts. There will be no real consequence for this for the GOP. They will hold the House in 2014. This will be forgotten by then and the gerrymandering will help . We did have an opportunity to get the Senate but that might be shot now. I would rather have the House AND Senate and give the Dems he WH. Forget the WH. Dems have their teflon/symbolic candidates lined up for the next couple of presidential elections.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by DDNYjets View Post
    Dems have their teflon/symbolic candidates lined up for the next couple of presidential elections.
    Well, it's hard to picture any (R) candidate winning the White House in 2016 at this point.

    Hillary Clinton, First To-be Woman President vs. who, Cruz? lol. Palin? lolol. Fatboy Christie the "Moderate" Big Mouth? lololololololol.

    Hell, at this point Derpy Joe f'ing Biden could win in 2016.

  12. #12
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    LI
    Posts
    20,330
    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    You're simply wrong. In two weeks, the only thing the vast majority of voters will remember about this little sideshow is "Tea Party Terrorists Willing to Default and Destroy Everything".

    Again, the only people I hear thinking this is a win is the callers on Rush and Co. and like-minded posters on forums like this.



    We'll see. If Tea Party (R) candidates win 20 seats in 2014, sure, clearly I'm wrong.

    If (R) loses seats, and the Tea Party has less elected officials in 2015 than in 2013, then it will have proven my argument.

    I know what I'll be betting on. If we wind up in 2014 with single-party rule again, it'll be directly attributable to this fiasco.

    On a related note, I found this an interesting take:

    disagree on "simply wrong".

    I didn't say they would win, only that I understood their strategy.

    It won't be this tactic, it will a because of a fundamental shift left in the electorate. And if that happens, well, be careful what you wish for, because that will turn us into a Euro-debtor nation.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by quantum View Post
    disagree on "simply wrong".

    I didn't say they would win, only that I understood their strategy.

    It won't be this tactic, it will a because of a fundamental shift left in the electorate. And if that happens, well, be careful what you wish for, because that will turn us into a Euro-debtor nation.
    What do you mean "turn into" mate?

    We already ARE a Euro-Style Debtor Nation. The only shift is the last flop towards true Euro-style Social Democrat/Social Welfarism of Universal Healthcare and no-limit Unemployment Salary.

  14. #14
    Board Moderator
    Jets Insider VIP
    Charter JI Member

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    nyc
    Posts
    11,569
    Quote Originally Posted by quantum View Post
    Disagree WF - they have highlighted the problem in a way that couldn't be ignored; they made it clear that Obuttockscare is a big problem and that they tried to fix it, but not one Dim was willing to even listen.

    Pretty sure they knew going in that the Dims wouldn't budge, and that was part of the plan. Next year, the GOP can say "we warned you about Obuttockscare and look - they wouldn't even negotiate. If you don't like it, vote GOP."

    Pretty smart tactic. Any other way, and the media can ignore it. Media can't ignore a default, though.
    I think you're wrong here - what got highlighted, in the news, on talk shows, in popular culture, etc. was "big, mean politicians don't care about us, they give themselves a vacation, disrupt others, when they're done they get their jobs back, all in the name of some worthless partisan political jousting."

    And the governing shutdown dominates the news while the ACA insurance markets websites ****s the bed.

  15. #15
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    LI
    Posts
    20,330
    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    What do you mean "turn into" mate?

    We already ARE a Euro-Style Debtor Nation. The only shift is the last flop towards true Euro-style Social Democrat/Social Welfarism of Universal Healthcare and no-limit Unemployment Salary.
    we haven't driven off the cliff yet, but the last chance to turn is approaching quickly. its a good thing that people are starting to see that they will pay more for healthcare and subsidize others; not just the rich, but middle class also. I guess we'll see...

  16. #16
    I agree with Fish here. This whole shutdown was a big waste of time that accomplished nothing other then playing right in to the Democrats hands. I said it in a previous post here that I don't see any possible positive outcome and therefore it should not have been done at all. Right wingers are calling it a moral victory, that a faction tried to stand up and do something to stop a train wreck. That may be true but no one cares. It was obvious that they could not stop Obamacare and Fish had it right when he said that the GOP actually helped Obamacare by causing such a massive distraction muffling stories about awful initial implementation or the program alongside the stikershock stories across the country as most folks learned their insurance premiums are up massively.

  17. #17
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    49,999
    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    Next up in Predictable Politics 101: Tea Party Loyalists claim "Dolchsto▀legende" by the rest of the (R) establishment.
    WF, As usual you are right.

    Wondering if you happened to read the latest Rolling Stone and had any thoughts.


    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...story-20131010

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...chine-20131009

  18. #18
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    6,919
    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    A full scale (D) victory. Not a single thing was won by (R) here, and they're still taking the majority of the blame in public polling.
    +1

    Such a nonsensical and self-defeating fight by the Republicans.

  19. #19
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    6,919
    Quote Originally Posted by southparkcpa View Post
    I think you are looking at this wrong, all due respect. The TEA party, agree or disagree, is the FIRST movement to be voted in (unlike green party or Libertarians who have NO shot at elected office) and be able to tell their larger part GFY, Ill do what I want.

    It shows that the 2 party system has cracks. Personally, I admire of Cruz and party for standing up this long. Imagine if 5 more seats are won by the Tea party ... not saying I agree BUT I know a congressman personally and can tell you it is hard to buck the establishment. CRUZ did in a minor way.
    This is all good and well besides for the fact that the Tea Party got their asses handed to them after they picked an unwinnable fight. If they wanted to make a meaningful statement, they should have picked a battle that can actually be won. The US Congress looks like a dysfunctional circus around the country and world right now, and there can easily be some big financial repercussions for the foreseeable future.

  20. #20
    Jets Insider VIP
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    18,367
    Quote Originally Posted by parafly View Post
    This is all good and well besides for the fact that the Tea Party got their asses handed to them after they picked an unwinnable fight. If they wanted to make a meaningful statement, they should have picked a battle that can actually be won. The US Congress looks like a dysfunctional circus around the country and world right now, and there can easily be some big financial repercussions for the foreseeable future.
    Change is not easy.... what we have now is moderate republicans who resemble Clinton democrats.

    The true taxpayer is private business and it is running without employee growth.

    This problem will explode in 25 years.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Follow Us