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Thread: Nicely Put

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by SafetyBlitz View Post
    This is a great distillation of modern conservatism.

    Uninformed, victimized angst without any solutions to any problems.

    The political philosophy of proudly closing ones' eyes, covering ones' ears and yelling "No" at the top their lungs.
    This, from a man whose "side" has only one answer to every questions:

    "RACIST! BIGOT! MYSOGYNIST! SEXIST! HOMOPHONE! TERRORIST!"

    There is not an eyeroll gif big enough to express the lols of a progressive claiming the OTHER side is "Uninformed, victimized angst without any solutions to any problems".

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by parafly View Post
    Fair enough. Although one can argue that all of these programs are very intertwined between the two major parties. The Democrats' military spending is egregious, and generally the Republicans (aside from the occasional Paul Ryan) are very hesitant to make any type of changes to entitlements.

    We're stuck in status quo politics with both sides pointing fingers at the other side while most govern exactly the same.
    I agree that neither party is likely to make any of the drastic changes to spending we desperately need.

    I just think it's rather easy to pick out the lesser of two evils. Doesn't mean they aren't both evil.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    This, from a man whose "side" has only one answer to every questions:

    "RACIST! BIGOT! MYSOGYNIST! SEXIST! HOMOPHONE! TERRORIST!"

    There is not an eyeroll gif big enough to express the lols of a progressive claiming the OTHER side is "Uninformed, victimized angst without any solutions to any problems".
    Nailed it.

    But hey, maybe it's high time conservative take a page from the left's playbook and play the victim card. America loves a victim. After all, it's not coincidence the Tea Party folks polled highest right after the IRS Targeting Scandal went public.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axil View Post
    I'm not arguing that this "piece" forwarded any particular, actionable plan. I don't think that was the intent. It was supposed to lay out the differences in political principles and ideologys.

    You however claimed this was representative of "modern conservatism".

    The house passed budgets. The tried to defund Obamacare too. Those things are pretty damn specific. Were they going to go anywhere no? But that falls on both parties equally. Just as the shut down did.

    As for my "*****ing", two of the characterizations are yours. The other i threw in, in order to be representative of the party in general.
    How can one lay out differences in principles and ideologies if there are no specifics whatsoever.

    He concedes that our healthcare system is flawed but simply says "your idea is wrong, it involves the government".

    Well, great! You have a better idea? Tell me what we do now? Whats the plan?

    What should we have done about the financial collapse? Increase capital requirements? Put glass-steagull back on the books? Nothing?

    What should we do about immigration?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SafetyBlitz View Post
    How can one lay out differences in principles and ideologies if there are no specifics whatsoever.
    Er...easily. principles and ideologies are not specific by nature. Could he have cited specific examples? Sure, but this article was pretty damn long as it stands.
    Quote Originally Posted by SafetyBlitz View Post
    He concedes that our healthcare system is flawed but simply says "your idea is wrong, it involves the government".

    Well, great! You have a better idea? Tell me what we do now? Whats the plan?

    What should we have done about the financial collapse? Increase capital requirements? Put glass-steagull back on the books? Nothing?

    What should we do about immigration?
    Fair enough, however sometimes doing nothing is better than doing something. Obamacare is one of those times in my opinion. And during the shutdown that was the Dems opinion about all of the GOP proposals.

    I don't think this article was particularly inspiring or useful. Do i agree with a lot of it? Sure. But it's nothing new. Again i'll reiterate that my critism of your post was that you claimed this article was a distillation of the philosophy of the entire GOP! I then refuted your assertion with specific instances where the republican house forwarded a solution. That's what you were asking for right? Specifics.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    This, from a man whose "side" has only one answer to every questions:

    "RACIST! BIGOT! MYSOGYNIST! SEXIST! HOMOPHONE! TERRORIST!"

    There is not an eyeroll gif big enough to express the lols of a progressive claiming the OTHER side is "Uninformed, victimized angst without any solutions to any problems".
    Those terms you so eloquently capitalize, embolden and add exclamations too are only reserved for Acepepe and Jungleshift ... and I think you know why.

    LOL

    But I digress - when your side comes up with an idea(s) for immigration reform or healthcare costs or preventing another financial meltdown, let us know.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axil View Post
    I don't think this article was particularly inspiring or useful. Do i agree with a lot of it? Sure. But it's nothing new. Again i'll reiterate that my critism of your post was that you claimed this article was a distillation of the philosophy of the entire GOP! I then refuted your assertion with specific instances where the republican house forwarded a solution. That's what you were asking for right? Specifics.
    I'm sorry, their solution to our problems was their budget proposals and to defund obamacare?

    Really?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by SafetyBlitz View Post
    I'm sorry, their solution to our problems was their budget proposals and to defund obamacare?

    Really?
    All our problems? no.

    All problems related to Obamacare? Yes

    Some of the problems related to our budgetary issues? Yes.

    I'm not going to go find links and sources for every solution every member of GOP, or the GOP as a body has proposed. They have their solution to every issue just like the Dems do. The difference is how attractive you find those solutions to be.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by SafetyBlitz View Post
    This is a great distillation of modern conservatism.

    Uninformed, victimized angst without any solutions to any problems.

    The political philosophy of proudly closing ones' eyes, covering ones' ears and yelling "No" at the top their lungs.
    How did you get that from this article? The guy was spot on and referring to the Progressives that literally state the things he mentioned about fundamental human rights to employment and healthcare. Uninformed? How so? Victimized angst? He states the opposite. Your side sends out emails comparing Tea Party types to KKK members. One congressman just sent a fundraising email with a burning cross as the T in Tea Party. Bill Maher and MSNBC types alongside liberal congressmen and senators REGULARLY accuse conservatives and particularly small government types as Racist simply because they want to reduce governnment spending and debt. It's as if it is impossible to believe that a person actually cares about the deficit. They can't fathom it so they say it must be because they don't like when a black guy spends their money. I hear it stated all the time. No evidence of racist to back it up. They knowingly make it up to discredit opposing political thought and the sheeple eat it up. No mind is given to the dangers of deamonizing opposing opinion. It's simply that anyone that disagrees with left wing collectivism is a racist radical. Nothing could be further from the truth but the truth does not matter in politics when the vast majority of voters are low information fools.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by SafetyBlitz View Post
    This is a great distillation of modern conservatism.

    Uninformed, victimized angst without any solutions to any problems.

    The political philosophy of proudly closing ones' eyes, covering ones' ears and yelling "No" at the top their lungs.

    in another thread, I posted an article that used the phrase "Witlessly aping the argot of ostensibly detached science-is-settled utilitarians". Nailed you exactly.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by SafetyBlitz View Post
    Those terms you so eloquently capitalize, embolden and add exclamations too are only reserved for Acepepe and Jungleshift ... and I think you know why.

    LOL

    But I digress - when your side comes up with an idea(s) for immigration reform or healthcare costs or preventing another financial meltdown, let us know.
    Since you've obviously missed the intent of the essay, I'll try to sum it for you. The author is expressing (in a way that many like-minded folks appreciate) the source of his frustrations in the current political environment. And the primary source of that frustration is crap like you've posted here in this thread. He's attempted to explain the real motivation behind his beliefs, which have been consistently misrepresented by a majority of others who now control the narrative and national dialogue, and here you are, offering only "IGNORANT!" It's childish, it's faulty, and it is what is boiling up the rage in many who typically lay quietly in the weeds.

    Case in point, your position that no solutions are offered on health care (as if that were the intent). Regardless, plenty of alternatives have been kicked around in recent years. The reality is that they are often ignored, or simply dismissed, similar to the manner in which you attempt to dismiss the original essay. All ideas and proposals from the right are received as such. Rather than assessed with critical thought, the reaction is often "racist!, sexist! elitist!". So much so, that any real effort put into thinking about them is only to spin and wedge them into one of these categories. Means testing, vouchers, privatization, opening state borders, real tort reform, drug patent reform, etc. All have been out there, yet you claim nothing does. Here's some references for you to educate yourself on the "non-existent:

    http://mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=279

    http://www.cato.org/publications/pol...ix-health-care

  12. #32
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    Here is an interesting take on this subject from a rational Liberal's perspective:

    Democrats Are Stupid, Too
    By Clive Crook Oct 22, 2013 4:16 PM ET

    Even many Republicans agree that they lost the battle over the shutdown and the debt ceiling. The Tea Party walked the country to the edge of economic ruin and their party to the edge of political catastrophe until Republican leaders in Congress flinched. Maneuvering themselves into that defeat was an act of insane recklessness by Republicans and a political gaffe of the first order. Perhaps they’ll do it again in a few months.
    Democrats, though, have little to celebrate -- and I’m not talking about the shambolic rollout of the health-insurance exchanges. Republicans saw their approval numbers sink with the debt-ceiling standoff, but not nearly as badly as you might have guessed. This should be making Democrats think.

    Opinion polls put them between five and 10 percentage points ahead of the Republicans, about where they were in the first few months of the year. President Barack Obama has a net disapproval rating of between five and 10 points. At the start of the year, he had a net approval rating of more than 10 points. The balance flipped to negative in the summer, and the debt-ceiling fight didn’t flip it back.
    These poll numbers hardly let the Tea Party off the hook. If you ask me, the politicians who designed the strategy of threatening to default and the others who went along with it have shown themselves unfit to hold public office. Yet Republican leaders bowed in the end to what they saw as the prospect of certain defeat, not to an actual landslide of support for the Democrats and the president.

    Mild Backlash

    Why has the anti-Republican backlash, such as it is, been so mild? Here’s an obvious yet strangely neglected answer: Much of the electorate, while deploring the Tea Party’s nihilistic tactics, thinks the movement has a point.

    News flash: Most Americans don’t share the Democratic Party’s instinctive devotion to higher taxes and a bigger federal government. An enraged and unhinged minority of voters apparently wants to see the liberal agenda attacked by any means necessary, even if it means paralyzing the government and wrecking the economy. But a far wider segment wants to see the progressive program at least questioned and held in check -- and who will do that, if not the Republican Party?

    The answer to that question could have been and should have been the president. Many Democrats criticize Obama for being too centrist and accommodating, but this is a false reading. True, Obama has often given ground under pressure, which has made him look weak. But when has he ever led the country to a workable compromise, rather than being led there? He’s always the reluctant centrist, never the centrist by conviction.

    Think of health-care reform. The White House outsourced this enormous project (whose goals, by the way, I’m all for) to a Democratic Congress guided by the principle that “elections have consequences” -- meaning, never mind the other side’s objections and the idea that a reform of this scope should have bipartisan support. Republicans did push back and Obama did make concessions, but the president was never in charge and never wanted to be.

    Or think of fiscal policy. What has Obama done to advance the discussion that the country still needs on tax and entitlement reform? He appointed a presidential commission to advise on the issues and then, in effect, disowned it. All one can really say about the president’s fiscal preferences is that he thinks higher taxes on the rich and higher public spending are, other things equal, good ideas. Obama doesn’t stand for fiscal discipline; he has fiscal discipline thrust upon him.

    Geographic Divisions

    Or think of states’ rights. This is a politically divided country, with big divisions running along geographical lines. An arrangement that circumscribes the federal government’s role, leaving as much as feasible to be decided by states -- an arrangement like the one envisaged in the Constitution -- has much to be said for it. Obama could speak up for that idea, but doesn’t. He could acknowledge, and perhaps even believe, that the burden of proof lies with those who propose expanding federal powers, but doesn’t. It’s worse than that: You cannot say “states’ rights” to many Democrats without being accused of racism.

    There’s another theory to account for the mildness of the backlash against the Republicans’ irresponsibility -- and this rival explanation, much favored by their critics, is actually a big part of the Democrats’ problem. It’s the idea that voters are just so stupid. One of the things that strikes me as a foreigner living in the U.S. is that American metropolitan liberals despise every kind of bigotry, except the kind directed at the dumb hicks who inhabit the middle of the country. I mean, those people vote Republican!
    Trust me, the kind of naked class prejudice that is no longer acceptable in polite U.K. society is rife in Washington and other redoubts of American liberal condescension -- and the flyover people know it. Nobody likes to be talked down to, Americans least of all. If Democrats could bring themselves to respect the people they say they want to help, the Republican Party would be in deep trouble. On this, the Tea Party has no cause for concern.

    Who’s stupid? The electorate for thinking it needs reckless irresponsible Republicans to keep Obama and the Democrats in check? Or Democrats, for proving at every opportunity that that view is correct?

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axil View Post
    All our problems? no.

    All problems related to Obamacare? Yes

    Some of the problems related to our budgetary issues? Yes.

    I'm not going to go find links and sources for every solution every member of GOP, or the GOP as a body has proposed. They have their solution to every issue just like the Dems do. The difference is how attractive you find those solutions to be.
    You're forgetting the part when healthcare reform was on the table in the opening two years of the Obama presidency and no ideas from the right were put forth - it was "No" ... death panels, "cutting medicaid", etc etc... the first two years of his Presidency were all about "is he Muslim? Was he born here? does he hate America?"

    The right did not participate in the debate when the law was crafted and then held the government hostage several years later to delay/challenge it.

    There was no room for compromise on your side when the reform was on the table and then it was the centerpiece of your sides campaign to challenge him for his reelection and then it was the supreme courts gonna' overturn it and now it's lets hold the debt ceiling hostage till we can delay/destroy it. There's no here's our plan and lets see what we can negotiate in the GOP in Washington - it's lets kill this law. That's it. You might find links of GOP think tankers putting forth ideas and good, I'll read them, but it's not like anyone in Congress from the GOP is saying "here lets do this" - all they're saying is "No" - and sadly that's all they need to see for folks like you to reelect them.

    The irony is - republicans did have a conservative alternative to government healthcare - it was the foundation of Obamacare and it was put forth by the Heritage Foundation and put into practice by Mitt Romney when he was Governor.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by SafetyBlitz View Post
    You're forgetting the part when healthcare reform was on the table in the opening two years of the Obama presidency and no ideas from the right were put forth - it was "No" ... death panels, "cutting medicaid", etc etc... the first two years of his Presidency were all about "is he Muslim? Was he born here? does he hate America?"

    The right did not participate in the debate when the law was crafted and then held the government hostage several years later to delay/challenge it.

    There was no room for compromise on your side when the reform was on the table and then it was the centerpiece of your sides campaign to challenge him for his reelection and then it was the supreme courts gonna' overturn it and now it's lets hold the debt ceiling hostage till we can delay/destroy it. There's no here's our plan and lets see what we can negotiate in the GOP in Washington - it's lets kill this law. That's it. You might find links of GOP think tankers putting forth ideas and good, I'll read them, but it's not like anyone in Congress from the GOP is saying "here lets do this" - all they're saying is "No" - and sadly that's all they need to see for folks like you to reelect them.

    The irony is - republicans did have a conservative alternative to government healthcare - it was the foundation of Obamacare and it was put forth by the Heritage Foundation and put into practice by Mitt Romney when he was Governor.
    More BS. The Republicans passed multiple health care reform bills in the House. They dealt with portability of insurance and allowing small businesses to group up for better rates. There were think tanks that came out with a plan for catastrophic coverage only. What you are doing is repeating the false narrative of the left wing media. None of it is true.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefst2000 View Post
    How did you get that from this article? The guy was spot on and referring to the Progressives that literally state the things he mentioned about fundamental human rights to employment and healthcare. Uninformed? How so? Victimized angst? He states the opposite. Your side sends out emails comparing Tea Party types to KKK members. One congressman just sent a fundraising email with a burning cross as the T in Tea Party. Bill Maher and MSNBC types alongside liberal congressmen and senators REGULARLY accuse conservatives and particularly small government types as Racist simply because they want to reduce governnment spending and debt. It's as if it is impossible to believe that a person actually cares about the deficit. They can't fathom it so they say it must be because they don't like when a black guy spends their money. I hear it stated all the time. No evidence of racist to back it up. They knowingly make it up to discredit opposing political thought and the sheeple eat it up. No mind is given to the dangers of deamonizing opposing opinion. It's simply that anyone that disagrees with left wing collectivism is a racist radical. Nothing could be further from the truth but the truth does not matter in politics when the vast majority of voters are low information fools.
    Chiefs, Potato, Churchill - all three who I've debated with here the most, and therefore feel like I know the most about your politics, I've never thought or argued that you were racists.

    But Christ, how many times do we have to hear conservatives cheer when their leaders call Obama a muslim, kenyan, not born here etc for us to be allowed to say racism has a role in the conservative backlash against Obama?

    And it's ridiculous to assume that liberals can't or won't compromise -

    On this side of the aisle, we know cuts and revenue increases BOTH need to happen and we're willing to find a middle ground. For your side in Congress there is only cuts. Any immigration reform that involves a path to citizenship for anyone is a nonstarter for your side in Congress. Any healthcare reform that involves any expansion of any government role in healthcare of any kind is a nonstarter for your side in Congress. Any attempt at regulation of the financial industry is a nonstarter for your side in Congress.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefst2000 View Post
    More BS. The Republicans passed multiple health care reform bills in the House. They dealt with portability of insurance and allowing small businesses to group up for better rates. There were think tanks that came out with a plan for catastrophic coverage only. What you are doing is repeating the false narrative of the left wing media. None of it is true.
    Exactly. Just parroting pure nonsense. Plenty of proposals have come forth in Congress. They fall flat with the media, and with a blue Senate and President, they currently have no chance of advancing. To day otherwise is just closing your eyes and ears - whether willingly or not.

  17. #37
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    Cutting a cross the board nothing else will matter. There can be any sacred cows. Every federal agency needs to be cut yes that means the DOD, CIA, NSA, FBI.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by SafetyBlitz View Post
    Chiefs, Potato, Churchill - all three who I've debated with here the most, and therefore feel like I know the most about your politics, I've never thought or argued that you were racists.

    But Christ, how many times do we have to hear conservatives cheer when their leaders call Obama a muslim, kenyan, not born here etc for us to be allowed to say racism has a role in the conservative backlash against Obama?

    And it's ridiculous to assume that liberals can't or won't compromise -

    On this side of the aisle, we know cuts and revenue increases BOTH need to happen and we're willing to find a middle ground. For your side in Congress there is only cuts. Any immigration reform that involves a path to citizenship for anyone is a nonstarter for your side in Congress. Any healthcare reform that involves any expansion of any government role in healthcare of any kind is a nonstarter for your side in Congress. Any attempt at regulation of the financial industry is a nonstarter for your side in Congress.
    Just the fact that you refer to Democrats as we is kind of telling. The cheering you see is propaganda put out by leftists in an attempt to silence the opposition. The biggest superstars in the Tea Party and African Americans like Herman Cain and Alan West. The entire premise of what you use as evidence is beyond absurd. There are racists on all sides of the political spectrum. The most liberal people I know use the N word in casual conversation. It's offensive. I had a guy in my office who is one of the most dedicated left wing progressives I've encountered refer to a female AA athlete from the 2012 olympics as "looking like a monkey" and I observed the laughs and from the rest of the Democrats in the room. As a matter of fact the Democrat party's foundation is based in racism and protecting slavery. When they lost they moved on to victimization and controlling minorities through government dependency.

    The idea that on your side of the aisle you know that both cuts and tax increases are necessary is also complete fiction. Outside of defense what cut has any Democrat ever proposed? I don't mean given in on I mean proposed? Nothing. Even now as we speak here "your Side's" next ridiculous item on the agenda is universal Pre-K. Great call. Lets take something that the vast majority of people currently pay 2-3K per year for out of pocket, which supports countless private businesses and religious institutions and have the government take it over so it can cost 15K per child and crush all of the private enterprises currently doing a great job offering it. Thanks Barry.

    The saddest part of your response is where you refer to Leftist politicians as "We". Let me clue you in on some real important life knowledge. The vast majority of politicians are douche bags. That goes for both sides. They use language and propaganda to quell the stupid sheeple while lining their pockets on your dime. They are some of the slimyest human beings on the planet. You should hold a healthy disdain for all of them.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    Logical. Except that the majority votes FOR the minority, and that minority are the ones who express the viewpoint in question. Belive it or not, they're still supporting it.

    Also, using your logic, can you then explain this:



    Or do you think when a (D) says it, says that Tea Party is racist, it's ok?

    Personally, I find the above kind of imagery (which is representative of a beleif held by the MAJORITY of Liberals) to be no different than the imagery used by the Nazi Party to paint Jews as the enemy circa the 1930's.
    Where do you get you info that the MAJORITY of Liberals think the Tea Party = Nazi Party?

    The extremists on both ends paint with a broad brush. As I say it riles up the base but accomplishes nothing.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by FF2® View Post
    Where do you get you info that the MAJORITY of Liberals think the Tea Party = Nazi Party?

    The extremists on both ends paint with a broad brush. As I say it riles up the base but accomplishes nothing.
    You're heading towards a great point, which I, probably, unsuccessfully was trying to make in another thread...that you take away the 47M welfare recipients or other entitlement dependents, government workers and probably most union workers, you're left with most of top-line middle-liberal-Democratic americans who base most of their party affiliation 99% on social issues. Whether it's (gay marriage, abortion, environment), you have war-haters and you have civil rights activists. None of these things are bad or good, I'm not making a statement there other then, that's the crowd. But to you're point, it's the broad brush and like most americans...or humans, "well, I have to pick a side"...and then inadvertently, like sheep, they flock to the rest of that agenda. Because "if I'm on this side, the other sides my enemy." Not to say that doesn't work on both sides and you could reverse the switch to counter-point. But where I'm trying to get to is, take away the irrelevant social issues, most Americans (minus Welfare or entitlement recipients) would support the levels or policies of fiscal responsibility the Tea Party is trying to implement.

    This is why the current two party system is broken. Neither party speaks to the majority of America. Sorry to both sides of the extreme but it's the truth.

    On a personal note, the only place I want my federal tax dollars to go is to Military Defense....which is what it was intended for in the first place. Other than that, I/we can take care of ourselves, thanks. jmo

    Also, I should digress and go one step further, that if you take that 47M on welfare it's not fair to paint them all in a box. I'm sure there's a high percentage, who would like nothing more than to have more opportunities to be successful in their own right, in a free market with out crippling tax rates as high as 50%.
    Last edited by HessStation; 10-23-2013 at 07:31 PM.

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