Page 10 of 14 FirstFirst ... 89101112 ... LastLast
Results 181 to 200 of 265

Thread: Opinion: Cooks vs. Beckham

  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by eaglenj View Post
    Clearly you missed my point.

    I was comparing Wheaton and cooks. If cooks is so awesome (and again I can't believe the stupidity of this argument because I like cooks) and you feel that obj isn't because his stats were worse then Landry can you explain why cooks couldn't out produce a marginal prospect like Wheaton?
    There's so many things logically wrong with that question.

    Wheaton, 22, was a senior. Cooks was 10lbs lighter and 19 years old as a sophomore. Do I need to go on?

    Beckham,21, was a junior. Landry, 21, was a junior. Same team, same variables. One outproduced the other. Why?
    Last edited by requiem; 04-13-2014 at 04:42 PM.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by requiem View Post
    So you're asking me why Cooks wasn't as good when he was a sophomore, as he was as a junior? Or why as a sophomore Cooks wasn't better than a Senior? Really? Do you really need this explained? You usually get better as you develop in college. Being a year younger, his current season was/is comparable to Beckhams sophomore season. Cooks also added 10lbs his junior campaign.. If you fail to realize what a difference a year in age makes in college... There's no point in debating

    If Beckham was held back because of the run game why did Landry out-produce him? They were both juniors in such a tough environment to succeed.
    Interesting, I kinda figured you'd go there. So explain to me how Marquise Lee outproduced Robert Woods at USC then. One year older. I'd love to hear how experience doesn't matter in this case. If Lee was so good that he could outproduce a 2nd rd WR prospect being a year younger, than a guy who got outproduced by a guy who went in the 3rd round of the same draft? Or are you arguing that Lee is better than Cooks? Yes, I would like it explained. I'm not quite sure why you are perplexed at wanting explanations. It's a debate, not like you or any one else is sitting here actually submitting picks or on the phone with the GM.

    You didn't answer my first question though. Do you extrapolate Beckham's stats to match the pass attempts by OSU? Simple question, and I just like a (yes) or (no), and why so.
    Last edited by Win4ever; 04-13-2014 at 06:27 PM.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Win4ever View Post
    You didn't answer my first question though. Do you extrapolate Beckham's stats to match the pass attempts by OSU? Simple question, and I just like a (yes) or (no), and why so.
    no.

    If he was as good as advertised he would get his targets. He didn't. He was outperformed by Landry.

    Some people wrongly value the combine/measurables more than actually watching tape and looking at production. To me this is one of those cases.

    You're baiting and switching the actual topic. Tell me what one has to do with the other.

    I started by saying Beckham was terrible against the SEC. Then you or whoever responds with, SEC defenses/pac12 sucks/they ran the ball or something in that nature. I then say why did Landry outperform Beckham? You say Wheaton and Cooks. I point out how that's completely irrelevant and illogical, now you point out Lee and Woods?

    If playing in the SEC and running the ball is such a detriment to production HOW DID LANDRY OUTPERFORM BECKHAM?

    You, sir, are the one that hasn't answered a single question.

    I'll answer for you though. OBJ is over rated.

  4. #184
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    From Parts Unknown
    Posts
    10,327
    Quote Originally Posted by eaglenj View Post
    Don't forget roddy white and reggie wayne, both of whom are 6 feet flat - they seem to do ok.
    Jerry Rice, Barely 6'2. Steve Smith 5'9, Mike rvin barely 6'2, Deshaun Jackson 5'10. You sound ridiculous

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by requiem View Post
    no.

    If he was as good as advertised he would get his targets. He didn't. He was outperformed by Landry.

    Some people wrongly value the combine/measurables more than actually watching tape and looking at production. To me this is one of those cases.

    You're baiting and switching the actual topic. Tell me what one has to do with the other.

    I started by saying Beckham was terrible against the SEC. Then you or whoever responds with, SEC defenses/pac12 sucks/they ran the ball or something in that nature. I then say why did Landry outperform Beckham? You say Wheaton and Cooks. I point out how that's completely irrelevant and illogical, now you point out Lee and Woods?

    If playing in the SEC and running the ball is such a detriment to production HOW DID LANDRY OUTPERFORM BECKHAM?

    You, sir, are the one that hasn't answered a single question.

    I'll answer for you though. OBJ is over rated.
    So on one of the best running teams in the nation, you would say they are better off going completely away from it so Landry/Beckham can get stats? Essentially change their entire offensive philiosophy for Beckham?

    78 recptions, 1133 yards, 7 TD.

    Those are Julio Jones' stats from his last year in college. Another guy that played in a run first offense, that relied on running and defense. Doesn't mean he wasn't talented, it means the system prevented him from being a total monster because he had to play within the system.

    111, 1292 yards, 15 TDs for Robert Woods, the year after Jones left. Would this mean, Woods was better than Jones?

    I think most people in this thread think these two are pretty close, you are the one saying they aren't in the same league. People who watch tape, both on this board, and on draft projection sites, have them very close to each other, yet you disagree based on production, without taking into account their situations. Landry produced comparable numbers for two reasons. One, when you have two good WRs on any team, they are going to split targets. Same reason why Wheaton/Cooks were producing like that the year before. Second, Landry is more of a possession WR than runs the underneath routes (evidenced by his shorter YPC), which are more likely to be hit than longer plays that take more time to develop. Beckham was their intermediate to deep threat, while Landry was their short to intermediate threat.

    So you won't adjust for targets or system, but would rather take it production at face value?

    Interesting. So by that definition, you would say Geno Smith is better than Andrew Luck in college? Their production seems to bear it out, doesn't it? Geno Smith threw for more yards, more TDs, less INT, with pretty much the same identical completion percentage. Did you think they were the same? If Luck was so much better, they sure would've found the opportunity to get him better stats, right?

    You seem to be evading here by jumping from one thing to another. Wheaton/Cooks is the response to Landry/Beckham. When there are two good WRs, teams split targets. A good example, Cris Carter and Randy Moss with the Vikings. Moss's receptions in the years Carter was there? 69, 80, 77, 82. When Carter was hurt and then out the next two years? 106, and 111 receptions. Do you think that's coincidence? Or just that, they could just throw more to Moss now?

    Pretty much everyone here has watched tape, and they see two very good players with good skills. Beckham has shown great hands, agility, and explosiveness. So has Cooks. What people are citing from the combine are facts such as height and hand size, which have proven to be important in the past, while their speed and agility is very close.

  6. #186
    I don't know why we're arguing, but both of these guys seem like they'll stick in the league for a while. If I had to choose between the two, I would take Cooks. He's much more explosive than Beckham. It's actually scary how similar he is to Steve Smith. And Smith is a borderline HOF player (who would probably be a definite HOF if he played with a QB worth a damn).

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by 24 View Post
    Jerry Rice, Barely 6'2. Steve Smith 5'9, Mike rvin barely 6'2, Deshaun Jackson 5'10. You sound ridiculous
    I sound ridiculous? You are comparing college players to jerry rice.

    Might want to take a step back Mel kiper

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by 24 View Post
    Jerry Rice, Barely 6'2. Steve Smith 5'9, Mike rvin barely 6'2, Deshaun Jackson 5'10. You sound ridiculous
    I sound ridiculous? You are comparing college players to jerry rice.

    Might want to take a step back Mel kiper

  9. #189
    I'm not going to lie, I stopped reading once you brought up Julio Jones.

    Julio Jones produced against every team. He didn't just beat up on Furman, UAB and Mississippi state to accumulate his stat line. Once again a completely irrelevant issue brought up.

    I'm guessing you still didn't answer the question...

    WHY DOES BECKHAM, AN ALLEGED "NFL #1", STRUGGLE SO MUCH AGAINST THE SEC/TOP TEAMS?

    WHY DOES HE ONLY HAVE 2TD'S AGAINST SEC TEAMS IN HIS CAREER?

    That is unacceptable from a "#1".

    If he can't show up consistently against top CFB, why on earth would we automatically assume he will do it in the NFL? His TD performance is a major red-flag issue.

    Beckham is all potential. His "ceiling" is high but what's the chance of him reaching it? If we were talking about pick #49 or #80 this would be a different topic.

    The Jets need to get the best overall prospect @ #18

  10. #190
    I just listened to Tony Pauline's last poadcast and I heard some concerning things about Beckham. Not sure I want him at 18 anymore.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Maury77 View Post
    I just listened to Tony Pauline's last poadcast and I heard some concerning things about Beckham. Not sure I want him at 18 anymore.
    What were some of the things he said?

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by requiem View Post
    I'm not going to lie, I stopped reading once you brought up Julio Jones.

    Julio Jones produced against every team. He didn't just beat up on Furman, UAB and Mississippi state to accumulate his stat line. Once again a completely irrelevant issue brought up.

    I'm guessing you still didn't answer the question...

    WHY DOES BECKHAM, AN ALLEGED "NFL #1", STRUGGLE SO MUCH AGAINST THE SEC/TOP TEAMS?

    WHY DOES HE ONLY HAVE 2TD'S AGAINST SEC TEAMS IN HIS CAREER?

    That is unacceptable from a "#1".

    If he can't show up consistently against top CFB, why on earth would we automatically assume he will do it in the NFL? His TD performance is a major red-flag issue.

    Beckham is all potential. His "ceiling" is high but what's the chance of him reaching it? If we were talking about pick #49 or #80 this would be a different topic.

    The Jets need to get the best overall prospect @ #18
    You are missing the point. You should've read the whole post. How come Julio Jones got out produced by Robert Woods? You know the answer, which is why you "stopped reading". It's the system. Unlike the NFL, the systems and conferences vary. Going back to Julio Jones, he had 4 TDs against San Jose State, Duke, Georgia State, and had 3 TDs against Auburn, LSU, and SC. Does that mean he was horrible in 2010? No, he just produced better against inferior competition like a lot of guys, and no one is even saying Beckham is a similar prospect to Jones.

    And I'm saying extrapolate those stats to what a passing attack looks like that has similar passing numbers to OSU if you want to go stats. You keep throwing stats out of context here with 2 TDs, when they are a running team. That's the whole basis of their team, to run the ball. If you are judging just WR vs WR, then you have to equalize their opportunity to make a play, or atleast match the amount of passes these teams throw. You can't just throw out stats saying he didn't produce because of his system, because in that case, Tavon Austin should've been a No. 1 WR last year for the Rams because he produced stats as well in college.

    I agree that the Jets need the best prospect at 18, and I'm not even sure Cooks/Beckham is going to be the choice at 18, but between these two, they are very close to each other.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by requiem View Post
    I'm not going to lie, I stopped reading once you brought up Julio Jones.

    Julio Jones produced against every team. He didn't just beat up on Furman, UAB and Mississippi state to accumulate his stat line. Once again a completely irrelevant issue brought up.

    I'm guessing you still didn't answer the question...

    WHY DOES BECKHAM, AN ALLEGED "NFL #1", STRUGGLE SO MUCH AGAINST THE SEC/TOP TEAMS?

    WHY DOES HE ONLY HAVE 2TD'S AGAINST SEC TEAMS IN HIS CAREER?

    That is unacceptable from a "#1".

    If he can't show up consistently against top CFB, why on earth would we automatically assume he will do it in the NFL? His TD performance is a major red-flag issue.

    Beckham is all potential. His "ceiling" is high but what's the chance of him reaching it? If we were talking about pick #49 or #80 this would be a different topic.

    The Jets need to get the best overall prospect @ #18
    Do you think its at all possible that good defenses in the SEC double cover beckham, and continue to give LSU the short, possession-type plays that landry gives them? Wouldn't that explain landrys lack of YPC and OBJs excellent 19.5 YPC?

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by eaglenj View Post
    Do you think its at all possible that good defenses in the SEC double cover beckham, and continue to give LSU the short, possession-type plays that landry gives them? Wouldn't that explain landrys lack of YPC and OBJs excellent 19.5 YPC?
    Their YPC has more to do with the routes they ran and the fact that Landry played inside more. I didn't watch enough of LSU games live to say who got doubled more, so I won't comment on that part.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Hollywood Nosebleed View Post
    Their YPC has more to do with the routes they ran and the fact that Landry played inside more. I didn't watch enough of LSU games live to say who got doubled more, so I won't comment on that part.
    Totally agree - there are a ton of factors that relate to their numbers, which is why the argument about their numbers tell very little about the whole story.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Hollywood Nosebleed View Post
    What were some of the things he said?
    I didn't listen to the podcast, but I hear Beckham, like Allen Iverson, doesn't like practice.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Win4ever View Post
    You are missing the point. You should've read the whole post. How come Julio Jones got out produced by Robert Woods? You know the answer, which is why you "stopped reading". It's the system. Unlike the NFL, the systems and conferences vary. Going back to Julio Jones, he had 4 TDs against San Jose State, Duke, Georgia State, and had 3 TDs against Auburn, LSU, and SC. Does that mean he was horrible in 2010? No, he just produced better against inferior competition like a lot of guys, and no one is even saying Beckham is a similar prospect to Jones.

    And I'm saying extrapolate those stats to what a passing attack looks like that has similar passing numbers to OSU if you want to go stats. You keep throwing stats out of context here with 2 TDs, when they are a running team. That's the whole basis of their team, to run the ball. If you are judging just WR vs WR, then you have to equalize their opportunity to make a play, or atleast match the amount of passes these teams throw. You can't just throw out stats saying he didn't produce because of his system, because in that case, Tavon Austin should've been a No. 1 WR last year for the Rams because he produced stats as well in college.

    I agree that the Jets need the best prospect at 18, and I'm not even sure Cooks/Beckham is going to be the choice at 18, but between these two, they are very close to each other.
    As I've already stated which for whatever reason I have to keep repeating... I am NOT comparing Cooks stats to Beckhams stats.

    I'm asking a simple question. Why does Beckham not produce as a #1 against the SEC/good teams in general? Why can't he score TDs?

    I've been met with 'The SEC defenses' and 'They run more', to which I responded with, 'Why did his teammate consistently produce?'

    From what I've seen Beckham was rarely if ever double teamed. ( It's nearly impossible to get film of the games where he did nothing, that happens to be a lot, since it doesn't make for good highlights) Even if he was, that further proves my point with Cooks. Cooks was doubled/tripled team and he still produced.

    We have seen nothing from Beckham in big-games.. against good teams.. against the SEC... in finding the endzone.. in that consistency needed from a #1..

    but somehow he's a #1 in the NFL. I don't buy it.

    If anything, I'd take Landry over Beckham, which was debatable before the underwear olympics.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by eaglenj View Post
    Do you think its at all possible that good defenses in the SEC double cover beckham, and continue to give LSU the short, possession-type plays that landry gives them? Wouldn't that explain landrys lack of YPC and OBJs excellent 19.5 YPC?
    Why would you double-cover a short, possession type receiver?

  19. #199
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    From Parts Unknown
    Posts
    10,327
    Quote Originally Posted by eaglenj View Post
    I sound ridiculous? You are comparing college players to jerry rice.

    Might want to take a step back Mel kiper
    No I'm not. I'm comparing their potential to rice.

  20. #200
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    From Parts Unknown
    Posts
    10,327
    Love this thread. It's what the draft is all about.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Follow Us