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Thread: The Raider Game

  1. #61
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    I agree with the statement that besides Mike Vick (and Donovan McNabb) if there is a draft to start a franchise there's not a QB in the league i would rather have than Chad Pennington - his upside is tremendous and his accuracy and decision-making abilities, leadership are qualities you just can't teach.

    5ever you are somewhat right, people are quick to dismiss Chad's bad play - but you seem to harping on it - this was his first true bad game - it happened in a place where as a franchise, the team has only won 1 out of 16 contests, and the team they lost to was MUCH OLDER coming off a bye week and eventually ended up in the super bowl.

    Most first year starting QB's have bad games like Chad's OAK game every other week - the revered Brett Farve and Rich Gannon STILL have games like that - the bottom line is that the NYJ are a very young team on the rise -its smart to question whether Chad was a "one year wonder" but remember he was the highest rated QB of his draft and it wasn't because of physical attributes - its just cause he knows how to play the game and is a winner. Many fans are convinced of Chad's talent and its not because of stats or anything else, its just by watching him play the game - it may not be the most conservative thought but i tend to agree with that assessment.

  2. #62
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    Worshipper good to see you're impressed with 42 bullet screen passes that skip 2 yards in front of the WR, but who can blame you with Jay Fiddler.

  3. #63
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by jets5ever[/i]@Apr 15 2003, 02:31 PM
    [b] Dolphin - is Dilfer "amazing" too?

    Brady led 2 TD drives in 10 quarters of playoff football, and in that "amazing" drive, he threw a decent pass to Brown, after that it was all JR Redmond. And the FG was almost 50 yards, not a chip-shot.

    [/b][/quote]
    [color=green][font=Times][b]5[/b][/font][/color]

    For one of the few jesticle fans based in reality you missed it a little. Brady did benefit from superior special teams play (the whole year and the playoffs), but your 2 for 10 lacks unbiased judgement. The fact he did benenfit from Ty's INT, Troy's Punt Return TD. Two opportunites he did not have to lead the team. He also played one game in a blizzard, and the other two against the 1st and 3rd Defenses. Plus, the conservative nature Belichick and staff had for him that year. Those factors had a little something to do with it.

    [b]When[/b] called upon he did deliver. Down to Oakland 7-0 at half and 13-3 in the fourth he went 26 out of 39. He was leading the Patriots into scoring range against the Steelers before going down and you minimize his impact on the Superbowl. I am not saying he was a clear MVP he was not. If ever there was a case for a team MVP that was it. However, against one of the best defenses in the league for that season, momenteum clearly on the Rams side and starting from his 19 he delivered. JRR did the rest? Who got him the ball under pressure every time? I have the tape and have watched many times. The Rams had pressure just about everytime he passed. His 3 incompletes were to avoid pressure and to kill the clock. That "decent pass" to Troy was one of those medium range passes jesticles fans give little credit for.

    As for your Dilfer argument, you miss the biggest point. Dilfer never had to win a game. Brady did. Brady did not have the D or running game to augment him. He did benefit from his D and speciall teams, but unlike Dilfer whose barely attempted 60 passes for 4 games, Tom did carry the team when called upon.

  4. #64
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    Rick Mirer could have completed those dump offs to Redmond, stop the madness please.

  5. #65
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    True even Dilfer could have ran the Patriot offensive that year they won the SB.

  6. #66
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    PF -

    You are a sensible Pats fan as well. We just disagree. Tom did nothing, zero, zilch against Pitt. Sorry, IMO that is fact. "Was leading them towards a score" C'mon, man. It was in the mid second quarter and he had out no points up as of yet. ( I am NOT saying Bledsoe carried them or played unreal in that game, he didn't, he played OK) It just gives weight to my theory that the QB position is not asked to do much in the Pats' O.

    He did play well late against Oakland, I will give him that, but Vinateiri still had to make two tough kicks and Tom did catch a break since, while the call was correct, the rule is horrible.

    In the SB drive he dumped off some screens to Redmond who got YAC and made one throw to Brown. The kick was 48 yards.

    IMO - if it weren't for a tough D and an unreal kicker, the Pats don't win the SB. Brady played an average to below average game. Yes, in the "last" drive he didn't throw a killer INT, but the only reason he had a chance to settle for a winning FG was because the defense put him in that position. Brady managed to lead them to 13 points against the Rams and 0 points against the Steelers.

    Jim Kelly drove his team down late in a SB, but his kicker wasn't AV. Does that mean he's not "clutch" or "doesn't know how to win?" No, it means his kicker choked and Brady's didn't (three times).

    I am not taking anything away from the Pats, they earned it, it was NOT a fluke and they beat three awesome teams to win the SB. Jets fans get mad because of sour grapes, that's all.

    But I do not believe the "Brady is unreal" hype. Tom and Chad are both slighly above-average, limited QBs who will - hopefully for their fans- improve.

    Damon Huard could have stepped in an thrown for 141 yards against the Rams and won it. Bledsoe stepped in after not playing for 4.5 months and effectively ran that offense. The QB was protected in that offense.

    It's just that Brady happened to be the guy who was playing so all of these "intangibles" and credit gets projected on him because he plays the most visible position.

    SHould you be happy he's your QB? Sure, he's a decent young QB who should improve.

  7. #67
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    How can anyone say that one is better than the other in the Penny/Brady argument is beyond me. I call it even, with TB sporting the crown jewel. Someone posted that you have to give the nod to Chad because of overall consistency and accuracy. Don't you think you ought to give him another season...a full one this time....to see if those claims are really true?

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  8. #68
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    Garbanza - that's what I have been trying to say, that Chad and Brady are essentially the SAME QB.

    But Jets fans just call me Pats5ever, so you see what we are dealing with.... :blink:

  9. #69
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by jets5ever[/i]@Apr 15 2003, 05:28 PM
    [b] Garbanza - that's what I have been trying to say, that Chad and Brady are essentially the SAME QB.

    But Jets fans just call me Pats5ever, so you see what we are dealing with.... :blink: [/b][/quote]
    True that, but our QB has a ring! :rolleyes:

    Only kidding.

  10. #70
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by jets5ever[/i]@Apr 15 2003, 05:28 PM
    [b] Garbanza - that's what I have been trying to say, that Chad and Brady are essentially the SAME QB.

    But Jets fans just call me Pats5ever, so you see what we are dealing with.... :blink: [/b][/quote]
    Well you have been known to switch teams. The Yankees started winning all the time so you switched to the Red Sox. Cmon man there is a history here. It is only a matter of time until you "come out of the Patriot closet".

    Furthermore if I find out that you have WMD I am going to be pissed. LOL.

  11. #71
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by jets5ever[/i]@Apr 15 2003, 01:28 PM
    [b] Garbanza - that's what I have been trying to say, that Chad and Brady are essentially the SAME QB.

    [/b][/quote]
    Your points on that comparison were very well taken, Jets5ever..

    Of course, who is the better QB, or even more accomplished QB is impossible to determine without weeding out all the variables, coaching, fellow players, schedules, etc, so it is virtually an impossibility.

    But one overall variable, and fact, is that the team Brady led in 2001 was vastly superior to the one CP led in 2002. Individual roster talent at key positions notwithstanding (DE, RB is particular), the Jets of last year were nothing like the "well-oiled machine" Belichicken had running two years back. That team was the ultimate in fine coaching, team work, and "clicking."

    I'm not being a homer when I say, all things being equal, I'd prefer Chad Pennington over Tom Brady on ANY team. Brady is good, damn good, but the fine line between excellent "managed" QB, (I prefer "manager" myself- it is not a passive role by any means), and a QB who can win games on his own is what I think we will see unfold over the next few seasons.

    I'd bet on it too.

    Their abilities, as Jets5ever poinst out, may be strongly comparable, and both excel in leadership and "intangibles", work ethic and ability to improve.

    But CP is smarter, an even harder worker, and can grasp an extremely complex offense in a way which I doubt Brady could. It's not easy to define, and not always supportable by stats, but Chad is simply more special than Tom.

    For numbers crunchers, that may sound ridiculous, unprovable, a soft science approach to the hard science "proofs" we seek from the game , but how many fans, Pats and Jets alike, sense it ot be true?

    I think most of us.

  12. #72
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    Mad - that's a fair assessment.

    You are saying what I have been saying all along. Essentially, that to evaluate QBs you cna't just look at stats, rather, you have to sit down and watch games and make your own judgments about each player after you have watched enough games.

    In your opinion Chad gets the nod over Brady; in other people's opinions Brady gets it. I agree that it is a close call...but people who bust out a completion % or QB rating to justify what is obviously a naked opinion are deluding themselves into thinking evaluating players is a 'hard' science.

    It's like you said, we may seek hard science proofs from the game but there are just too many variables and unknowns and each QB's circumstance is unique.

    Now, if Brady and Chad were somehow on the same team and whichever one was starting got hurt, we could then try to evaluate each other because theoretically those two playing conditions are as close as possible, i.e. - with the same system and surrounding talent. But even then it depends on who you are playing, etc. So, IMO, something like Cleveland fans who think Holcomb is better than Couch probably have a "harder" case, IMO, than Jets or Pats fans who pick either Chad over Brady, simply because they have watched both QBs operate in similar circumstances.

    Ultimately - it comes down to an informed assessment by each indivdual. Your assessment, I am sure, is shared by most Jets fans and disagreed with by most Pats fans. Why? Because emotion enters the picture, IMO.

  13. #73
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    The "sense" of a die-hard Jets fan....jeez! :) No offense, Herm, although you do give it the 'ole Boston College try....you still "bleed green" and your objectivity has to be questioned.....then again, compared to Pope, you are the Dali Lama..(welcome back, btw, you have been sorely missed)

    Anyway, count me as one of those that doesn't have that feeling..... I say give them both a little more time to prove their mettle. In my book, consistency takes years.

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  14. #74
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    Max -

    I definitely ditched the Yanks because rooting for them got boring. (I am also not a huge baseball fan to begin with)

    But I literally bleed green for the Jets. There is no way in hell I could ever leave the Jets or Knicks, way too much of an emotional investment in both teams.

    MLB, NHL - I don't much care and yes, the current system in MLB turned me off top the Yanks.

    Believe me, during games I scream, shout and call Brady unimaginable names and call every Jets player who makes even a decent play, "my boy!!", but afterwards I try to be objective about Jets players and opposing players.

  15. #75
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by MadAsHell+Apr 15 2003, 05:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (MadAsHell @ Apr 15 2003, 05:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--jets5ever[/i]@Apr 15 2003, 01:28 PM
    [b] Garbanza - that&#39;s what I have been trying to say, that Chad and Brady are essentially the SAME QB.

    [/b][/quote]
    Your points on that comparison were very well taken, Jets5ever..

    Of course, who is the better QB, or even more accomplished QB is impossible to determine without weeding out all the variables, coaching, fellow players, schedules, etc, so it is virtually an impossibility.

    But one overall variable, and fact, is that the team Brady led in 2001 was vastly superior to the one CP led in 2002. Individual roster talent at key positions notwithstanding (DE, RB is particular), the Jets of last year were nothing like the "well-oiled machine" Belichicken had running two years back. That team was the ultimate in fine coaching, team work, and "clicking."

    I&#39;m not being a homer when I say, all things being equal, I&#39;d prefer Chad Pennington over Tom Brady on ANY team. Brady is good, damn good, but the fine line between excellent "managed" QB, (I prefer "manager" myself- it is not a passive role by any means), and a QB who can win games on his own is what I think we will see unfold over the next few seasons.

    I&#39;d bet on it too.

    Their abilities, as Jets5ever poinst out, may be strongly comparable, and both excel in leadership and "intangibles", work ethic and ability to improve.

    But CP is smarter, an even harder worker, and can grasp an extremely complex offense in a way which I doubt Brady could. It&#39;s not easy to define, and not always supportable by stats, but Chad is simply more special than Tom.

    For numbers crunchers, that may sound ridiculous, unprovable, a soft science approach to the hard science "proofs" we seek from the game , but how many fans, Pats and Jets alike, sense it ot be true?

    I think most of us. [/b][/quote]
    What a minute there. The 2001 Patriots did click, but they were greater then the sum of their parts. Chad had weapons to work with.

    How do you say Chad is a harder worker? Not taking anything away from Chad, but Tom, the 6th round draft choice, came into the league and manged to convince the coaches he was worth keeping a 4th QB on the roster, a rarity these days and an expense a 5-11 team can ill afford. After noticing his shortcomings, he hit his first offseason hard and came back in NFL shape and managed to unseat a veteran as the number 2 and seriously pushed the incumbent starter for the starting position. With all of 3 passes to his credit he stepped in (with the aid of the rest of the team) and led the team to a Superbowl. Needless to say, he has worked his ass off.

    How is Chad smarter? He sat on a bench for two years and had time to learn the offense. Again I am not knocking Chad, but be realistic, it is not like he was sitting there with his thumb up his butt for two years. He was learning.

    Your "proofs" are merely speculation on your part.

  16. #76
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    PF, ever heard of a Rhodes Scholar? I think that&#39;ll explain why Chad is smarter than Brady and if Bledsoe doesn&#39;t get his lung punctured by Lewis does Brady ever see field, I think not.

  17. #77
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    Ok so I&#39;ll snuff out the incense and turn off the Enya, Garb, I know for the quantifier-type fans, my &#39;analysis" was much too touchy-feely.

    But don&#39;t call me biased for Chad. Fact is, I was highly biased AGAINST him. Now I am being much more objective.

    "Philosophically", I&#39;ve always rooted for whomever I perceived as being underdog. I had automatically resigned CP to the "Golden Boy, franschise QB", category when he was drafted. As a Jets fan I certainly did not want to see him fail. but I certainly suspected he would. Watching 6th rd pick Tom Brady in 2001, I was convinced that once again QB "pedigree" was a joke. I saw Tom as a living act of will, Chad as a big bonus, spoiled brat, who could not even impress in camp to unseat Vinnie Intercepteverde(that was before learning about Chad&#39;s 2002 tired arm issues)

    What I failed to realize then was Chad Pennington is NOT the epitome of the Golden Boy, everything-comes-to-me-all-my-life QB. In fact, he is the antithesis of it. He does NOT have the great natural talent, physcial ability, speed or arm strength that we see in a typical first round QB. That we saw in a Vinnie or a Drew. The very fact that Chad worked his way into a first round selection is testimony to the REAL act of will, the one Chad Pennington has been living all his young life.

    Chad Pennington, is, I finally realized, the very personification of what I love most in players, and in all people - an overachiever. A PARCELLS GUY.

    Jets5ever is right once again. It&#39;s about emotion, and no need to be ashamed of it. Pennongton has the ability to overcome limitatiions, to persever, and to inspire his teammates and fans. He&#39;s the farthest thing form "Goldern Boy" you coudl get in an NFL QB.

    Took me some time to see that, but I&#39;ve come around all right.

    Brady, on the other hand, well Garb, you got my snyopsis last summer at Pat&#39;s camp. BARF&#33;

  18. #78
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by pope[/i]@Apr 15 2003, 02:18 PM
    [b] PF, ever heard of a Rhodes Scholar? I think that&#39;ll explain why Chad is smarter than Brady and if Bledsoe doesn&#39;t get his lung punctured by Lewis does Brady ever see field, I think not. [/b][/quote]
    What&#39;s it matter if Opie is smarter than Brady???? If he&#39;s a Rhodes Scholar, I&#39;d bet he&#39;s smarter than Marino, Montana, Aikman,Elway.etc ....Is he a better QB than any of them??? Hardly.... Means nothing....

    PS. If Vinny hadn&#39;t gotten his shoulder hurt, would Opie have seen the field???? I think not too....

  19. #79
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    Kansas, you of all logical, numbr-crunching, objective posters did I seek to bait with that one. :-)

    I don&#39;t like those box inside box double quotes so here is your post quoted in sections:

    [b]Wait a minute there. The 2001 Patriots did click, but they were greater then the sum of their parts. Chad had weapons to work with.[/b]

    Yes, of course he did, and some individual weapons were much more dangerous than your own, but, and of course this is a complement to your coaching staff; you had superior field generals in 2001 to ours in 2002.

    [b]How do you say Chad is a harder worker? [/b]

    I say this, Kansas: Chad Pennington is the hardest worker I have ever observed in any sport, in my entire life. That is the core of his "specialness".

    [b]Not taking anything away from Chad, but Tom, the 6th round draft choice, came into the league and manged to convince the coaches he was worth keeping a 4th QB on the roster, a rarity these days and an expense a 5-11 team can ill afford. After noticing his shortcomings, he hit his first offseason hard and came back in NFL shape and managed to unseat a veteran as the number 2 and seriously pushed the incumbent starter for the starting position. With all of 3 passes to his credit he stepped in (with the aid of the rest of the team) and led the team to a Superbowl. Needless to say, he has worked his ass off. [/b]

    Granted, anyone who would argue that needs his/her head examined. No one deny Brady is a player who will do what it takes, and more. But CP is the ultimate extra-game-tape, gymn-and-film-rat, take-the=playbook-on-his-freaking-HONEYMOON, obsesssive-compulsive overachieving hard work.

    [b]How is Chad smarter? He sat on a bench for two years and had time to learn the offense. Again I am not knocking Chad, but be realistic, it is not like he was sitting there with his thumb up his butt for two years. He was learning.[/b]

    I will not get into the Rhodes Scholarship nomination because I know how they work. I will say tho, that coming from a school like Marshall, that had to have been some essay section of the application. Both QBs are not only smart, but politic, mature way beyond their years.

    Yes, of course CP was learning for two years. He also had to learn the Hennings O and then the much more complicated Hackett. The chief obstacle in the first Hackett year was his inability to get the practice snaps he needed to turn theory into practice. But he made astonishing progress once he got his shot. I think even more so than Tom has made to date.

    [b]Your "proofs" are merely speculation on your part.[/b]

    That&#39;s right, Kansas. Maybe my "proofs" can&#39;t be proven unless we can get both guys on a survivor island and match them up for hardiness, work ethic, ingenuity, ability to learn form mistakes, and throw in a few IQ tests too., but my I&#39;d bet the season on my speculation - that&#39;s how sure I am that I&#39;m right.

    Kansas, fortunately for fans of both our teams, we don&#39;t need the island to see our protagonists battle it out - the drama is going to unfold over the course of the next eight to ten years.

    I have ZERO doubt, that years from now when the QB class of 2000 is reminisced on, it will be the name PENNINGTON that heads the list.

    later&#33;

  20. #80
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    Hillbilly thanks for chiming in, your boy PF asked a couple questions and I answered them, if you don&#39;t like the truth that&#39;s too bad you can go back to patsiefags.com and agree with Andy Johnson&#39;s love fest.

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