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Thread: Off Topic: Mariano past his prime?

  1. #1
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    Even though he has been injured, the past 2 years with Mariano have been shakey. He does not seem to have the cutter that was a lock to get guys out.... Francesa mentioned waiting for the warm weather but is it possible we have seen Mariano's best and he has come back to the pack?

  2. #2
    Maxman
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    I am not buying it. The end will certainly come for Mariano but I have seen nothing to indicate that he has lost it.

    Last year he had an ERA in the mid two's. He saved 28 games and only blew 4. His injuries were not related to his arm or shoulder. Groin injuries do heal.

    This year he has pitched in 10 games. He has had almost no save opportunities. When he was on the DL the Yanks were really hot and won all the time. He came back and they lost a ton of games. They haven't had many close games.

    Mariano is the biggest factor by far in the Championship run. I have no reason to believe he has lost it. Even last night against Boston...he was not hit hard.

    He is still the man.

  3. #3
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    guys closers are delicate creatures over time - the amount of closers who have gotten it done for more than a couple years in a row you can count on one hand - as a closer you need to be on the edge but once you lose the edge its impossible to get it back

    Mariano's Psyche was ruined by the AZ world series.

    I say this as an objective non-met non-yank fan, i wouldn't touch Mariano in a fantasy league with a ten foot pole. He will get his share of saves this year just cause he's on such a good team, but he's no longer among the league elite at the position. He still has great stuff but his arm is not the problem its his cabeza

  4. #4
    Maxman
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@May 30 2003, 12:02 AM
    [b] guys closers are delicate creatures over time - the amount of closers who have gotten it done for more than a couple years in a row you can count on one hand - as a closer you need to be on the edge but once you lose the edge its impossible to get it back

    Mariano's Psyche was ruined by the AZ world series.

    I say this as an objective non-met non-yank fan, i wouldn't touch Mariano in a fantasy league with a ten foot pole. He will get his share of saves this year just cause he's on such a good team, but he's no longer among the league elite at the position. He still has great stuff but his arm is not the problem its his cabeza [/b][/quote]
    A bloop hit over a drawn infield. That was what broke his pysche? Not. Not even close. If anything it should have broke Torre's pysche...because DJ and Alfonso should have been at double play depth.

    The guy has a career postseason ERA under 1.00. I think he has close to 100 post season innings pitched. That is just sick. In 2001 his postseason ERA was under 1.00.

    In 2002 he didn't give up a run in the postseason. He didn't pitch much because the Yankees lost. But to say that Arizona changed him is simply not true.

  5. #5
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    Well as a person that closely watches the Yankees, Mariano does not seem to have that "pop" or ability to just blow batters away... sure he can beat the average Joe Smoes but the above average are no longer fooled or found walking away shaking their heads..... I hope I am wrong because he is a class guy...

  6. #6
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by 4HCrew[/i]@May 30 2003, 08:36 AM
    [b] Well as a person that closely watches the Yankees, Mariano does not seem to have that "pop" or ability to just blow batters away... sure he can beat the average Joe Smoes but the above average are no longer fooled or found walking away shaking their heads..... I hope I am wrong because he is a class guy... [/b][/quote]
    He changed his pitching style a couple of years ago, where he stopped blowing the ball by everyone. Now he looks for them to make contact, since he rarely is hit hard (BoSox did get off a couple of shots though). Let the fielders do the work. Helps him throw less pitches, etc.

    That said, one has to remember that Mariano has been dominant since 1996. It is rare for any closer, relief pitcher to have a run for such a long time, whether he throws smoke, or junk, or trick pitches. So he might be slowing down, but he's still the best out there.

  7. #7
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Maxman+May 29 2003, 11:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (Maxman @ May 29 2003, 11:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--bitonti[/i]@May 30 2003, 12:02 AM
    [b]
    Mariano&#39;s Psyche was ruined by the AZ world series.

    [/b][/quote]
    [/b][/quote]
    I love it when fans talk about players&#39; "psyches."

    As if any of us have any friggin clue....


    Max is right - just look at his production and don&#39;t do some armchair attempt at phrenology or astrology or the organized intuition that is pscyhology to explain things.

    Torre goofed in that Series. Max is right again. If the infield is positioned normally, that hit is an out and who knows what happens after that.

    Rivera seemed to bounce back from Sandy Alomar&#39;s HR in 1997 just fine....

  8. #8
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    hey you yankee fans can remain delusional all you want -

    the fact remains my gut tells me Mariano just aint the same pitcher as he was before the WS and its not a physical thing its 100% mental.

    Closers VERY rarely stay among the league elite for more than 2 seasons. Mariano has been tops for how long? 5+ years?

    besides his psyche he has passed his expiration date.

    i challenge anyone to name one closer who was dominant for more than 5 years - im sure there are a couple that were truely dominant but they are RARE - maybe 2 or 3 over the years out of a collection of 100s and 100s

  9. #9
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@May 30 2003, 02:02 AM
    [b] I say this as an objective non-met non-yank fan, i wouldn&#39;t touch Mariano in a fantasy league with a ten foot pole. He will get his share of saves this year just cause he&#39;s on such a good team, but he&#39;s no longer among the league elite at the position. He still has great stuff but his arm is not the problem its his cabeza [/b][/quote]
    How the hell would any of you know what&#39;s going on in Rivera&#39;s head? Stop kidding/flattering yourselves. You don&#39;t think Dennis Eckersley had a bad run here and there?

    There are only TWO closers that I&#39;d rather have than Rivera right [i]now[/i]: Smoltz and Gagne...but that doesn&#39;t mean that Mo&#39;s lost his "elite" status. He&#39;s still got one of the most unhittable pitches in the game, he&#39;s still a ridiculously reliable playoff pitcher, and he&#39;s still in his prime.

  10. #10
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    yeah yeah - the proof is in the pudding - lets watch and see what happens the next truely high-stress situation he gets put in, not now but down the stretch...

    he&#39;s a good no strike that he&#39;s a great closer - but he&#39;s clearly not the same as he was before, the guy was lights out- he&#39;s just not that way anymore, its starting to become an adventure with him

  11. #11
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    I&#39;m not buying into that..he is fine mentally...remember the Alomar Jr. Grand slam...he was fine after that.. That being said, he is the third best closer in the league right now...behind Smoltz and Gagne...Percival is a close fourth and Nenn is there when healthy.

    He is still a great closer...but not what he used to be.

  12. #12
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@May 30 2003, 12:11 PM
    [b] i challenge anyone to name one closer who was dominant for more than 5 years - im sure there are a couple that were truely dominant but they are RARE - maybe 2 or 3 over the years out of a collection of 100s and 100s [/b][/quote]
    Lee Smith (dominant &#39;83-&#39;95), Dennis Eckersley (&#39;88-97), John Franco (&#39;86-91, &#39;94-&#39;98), Jeff Reardon (&#39;82-92), Trevor Hoffman (&#39;94-present, although injured)...

    Shall I go on?

  13. #13
    Maxman
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@May 30 2003, 10:21 AM
    [b] yeah yeah - the proof is in the pudding - lets watch and see what happens the next truely high-stress situation he gets put in, not now but down the stretch...

    he&#39;s a good no strike that he&#39;s a great closer - but he&#39;s clearly not the same as he was before, the guy was lights out- he&#39;s just not that way anymore, its starting to become an adventure with him [/b][/quote]
    He is fine physically not mentally. Sorry dude but you couldn&#39;t be more wrong.

    He has been on the DL a bunch of times in the last year. If something is wrong it is physical. As far as the mental thing goes...sorry but as you like to say, the boy still has mad wiggle.

  14. #14
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    Max- I hope it&#39;s not lost on you that we 100% agree on this.

  15. #15
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    There is no doubting that Mo has lost a step but that is natural. He has been around a long time. Let&#39;s think about how many times he was required to get more than 3 outs. I doubt anyone has more two inning saves than Mo (although I can&#39;t back it up without researching it; still a good guess.) I would still take him over almost any other closer in a big spot.

    and his mental approach is almost 2nd to none. All of his quotes after a big blown save are along the lines "That&#39;s baseball" or "I have to put that in the past now, tomorrow&#39;s another day"

    As Yankee fans we are spoiled. We may have to come to grips that he is no longer automatic or unhittable...but he is still damn good.

  16. #16
    Waterboy
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@May 30 2003, 12:02 AM
    [b] guys closers are delicate creatures over time - the amount of closers who have gotten it done for more than a couple years in a row you can count on one hand - as a closer you need to be on the edge but once you lose the edge its impossible to get it back

    Mariano&#39;s Psyche was ruined by the AZ world series.

    I say this as an objective non-met non-yank fan, i wouldn&#39;t touch Mariano in a fantasy league with a ten foot pole. He will get his share of saves this year just cause he&#39;s on such a good team, but he&#39;s no longer among the league elite at the position. He still has great stuff but his arm is not the problem its his cabeza [/b][/quote]
    Bitonti,

    Name 3 other guys in the league that are better than Rivera. You wanna say Gagne? I need to see it for the remainder of the yearand next year. Smoltz??&#33;&#33; What is he 40 yrs old by now. No way in hell I&#39;d take him over Rivera. Psyche or not, the guy is still the best in the league.

  17. #17
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    RIGHT NOW who would i take over Mariano?

    i could list 10 guys who are all pitching better. We can talk about how he was great or whatever i will freely admit that but this season Mariano has only 4 saves in only 10 appearances. That&#39;s awful.

    Maxman you are right about his body breaking down but i would argue that there is a mind body connection and if you have lost confidence in your stuff its not that hard to find your way to the DL. even if he&#39;s not hurt sometimes managers hide struggling players on the DL. Rivera is officially a struggling player

    now listen i got no beef with him or the Yanks at all. But you all are deluding yourself. I play in several money leagues and i pride myself on the ability to tell when a guy is washed up. You can see it from everything from the way they walk to the way they give an interview. Mariano is on the decline and if you don&#39;t want to admit that he&#39;s no longer one of the best closers in baseball than you are only fooling yourself. There was a time when Mariano was lights out unstoppable - that time is long over and the beginning of the end was the AZ world series. After i saw that i made a pact to never own him in a fantasy league again - and i don&#39;t regret making that decision for one second.

    when ILIKEJETS listed 4 guys who were consistant closers that basically proved the point i was trying to make. Closers who can keep their stuff over a long period of time are rare. Ecks and Smith are HOF quality guys. Even Hoffman, Percival, Franco these guys are washed up too.

    If Jorge Julio were a Yankee the guy would lead the league in saves.

  18. #18
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    the thing about Rivera is that he was so PERFECT, that even the slightest sign of trouble and people want to say he&#39;s done. I think he has to come up with another pitch if he wants to continue to be sucessful though.

  19. #19
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    Julio would what???? I don&#39;t even think the Yankees had that many save opportunities&#33;&#33;&#33;

    Mo is still a high quality closer just not the best anymore. End of story. I mean you are going to base this on where you would take him on a fantasy baseball team????

    That is flawed logic

  20. #20
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    PINE the point of fantasy you can only win with a team full of DOMINANT players - guys that are mediocre or just ok won&#39;t cut it - everyone has to be clicking - and in the end fantasy sports is nothing more than an exersize in prediction - you look at everything about a guy and decide if he&#39;s gonna be dominant.

    You mock him cause he&#39;s not a big name but the fact remains if Jorge Julio were pinstripes the guy would lead the league in saves -

    i don&#39;t know how many save opps the Yanks have had off hand but are you are going to tell me that the Orioles had that much more than the Yanks?

    Gee exactly how awful are the Yanks playin if thats the case? If the Orioles closer is getting many more opps than the Yanks closer than talking about a closer is a moot point, that team sucks - s**t even Lance Carter from the Devil Rays has almost 10 saves and that team only beats Detroit&#33;&#33;&#33;

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