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Thread: Off Topic: Mariano past his prime?

  1. #21
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@May 30 2003, 05:28 PM
    [b]

    Gee exactly how awful are the Yanks playin if thats the case? If the Orioles closer is getting many more opps than the Yanks closer than talking about a closer is a moot point, that team sucks - s**t even Lance Carter from the Devil Rays has almost 10 saves and that team only beats Detroit!!! [/b][/quote]
    not necassarily Bit, you see if you're blowing a team away, or winning by more then 3 I think the rule is, then that doesn't qualify as a save oppourtunity.

    As for Jorge Julio, the kid is a stud, no doubt about it.

  2. #22
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@May 30 2003, 05:28 PM
    [b] You mock him cause he's not a big name but the fact remains if Jorge Julio were pinstripes the guy would lead the league in saves -

    i don't know how many save opps the Yanks have had off hand but are you are going to tell me that the Orioles had that much more than the Yanks?

    [/b][/quote]
    are you insane???? I think Julio is a solid closer. But you are comparing his full season so far of save opportunities with Mo's month? Is that fair?

    With that flawed fantasy logic then I would have to take Brandon Looper, Jose Mesa, and Mike Macdougal ove Mo. Are they truly better at that job than Mo?

    I agree he has lost a step but I think you are incorrect in assuming that it has affected him mentally.

    If baseball teaches us anything it is that it transcends the stats. You could look at a box score and say "wow 0-3...rough day for Tim Salmon." but unless you watched the game you don't truly know. Maybe he moved someone from second to third with a productive out. Maybe he scortched the ball.

    The problem with fantasy baseball (fun as it may be) it gives incorrect impressions of real worth in the game.

    Be wise to learn that and separate the two worlds.

  3. #23
    Maxman
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@May 30 2003, 10:21 AM
    [b] yeah yeah - the proof is in the pudding - lets watch and see what happens the next truely high-stress situation he gets put in, not now but down the stretch...

    he's a good no strike that he's a great closer - but he's clearly not the same as he was before, the guy was lights out- he's just not that way anymore, its starting to become an adventure with him [/b][/quote]
    4 Blown saves last year.

    He has pitched in 10 games this season.

    An Adventure? I really think you are just posting this to bust balls. How many Yankee games do you watch? You can't base anything on this year. He hasn't pitched. Last year he pitched fine when he was not on the DL...(thus the assertion that his issue is mental and not physical is simply not true).

    I do find it comical that you say the greatest postseason pitcher of all time (0.71 ERA) has mental problems. Pretty funny.

  4. #24
    Maxman
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by jets5ever[/i]@May 30 2003, 04:49 PM
    [b] Max- I hope it's not lost on you that we 100% agree on this. [/b][/quote]
    It is not lost on me. It surprises me to agree with you with regards to baseball...but it is not lost on me.

  5. #25
    Maxman
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@May 30 2003, 05:15 PM
    [b] If Jorge Julio were a Yankee the guy would lead the league in saves. [/b][/quote]
    The Yankees started the season by winning every game by a 7 run margin.

    They proceeded to lose a bunch of games after that.

    Either way there hasn't been a ton of save opportunities.

  6. #26
    fair enough but if you can say that reason Rivera isn't getting saves is cause there havn't been opportunities, than i can reply that what opportunities there are, he's often not available for - that WS year he 50 saves - was like his 5th great year in a row - meanwhile last year he only had 28, now he only has 4 in two months.

    I've seen some yankee games but not day-to-day that is true - but i would contend that the boxscores tell the story more than you give them credit for -

    You can't say a guy is elite at anything if he doesn't play regularly at it - Mariano has been bit by the injury bug since... WS of 2000! that's right folks.

    im really not trying to bust chops cause i hate the yanks or anything - i read all these stupid yank bo sox threads but don't participate - on this subject make no mistake if the question is Mariano past his prime the answer is most definately YES. Injuries are not always pure bad luck something that the player can't be blamed for. THere is a total mind body connection and his woes are traced to that...

    also how can you blame the WS on the infield IN??!

    an ELITE closer strikes that man out sends him to sit back down on the pine and allows his team to win the freakin world series. a wank closer (like MacDougal, or Mesa, or Benetiz) will crack under the pressure and serve up some trash. my gut tells me that Rivera lost his edge with that hit - he is still good but he has to prove to everyone that he can be the absolutely lights out pitcher that he once was. Closers are not like power pitchers or home run hitters that get better with age, they do have an expiration date its a gospel truth.

  7. #27
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    I'll agree that Rivera is not what he used to be, but, he is still an elite closer.

  8. #28
    Maxman
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@May 31 2003, 02:46 AM
    [b] fair enough but if you can say that reason Rivera isn't getting saves is cause there havn't been opportunities, than i can reply that what opportunities there are, he's often not available for - that WS year he 50 saves - was like his 5th great year in a row - meanwhile last year he only had 28, now he only has 4 in two months.

    I've seen some yankee games but not day-to-day that is true - but i would contend that the boxscores tell the story more than you give them credit for -

    You can't say a guy is elite at anything if he doesn't play regularly at it - Mariano has been bit by the injury bug since... WS of 2000! that's right folks.

    im really not trying to bust chops cause i hate the yanks or anything - i read all these stupid yank bo sox threads but don't participate - on this subject make no mistake if the question is Mariano past his prime the answer is most definately YES. Injuries are not always pure bad luck something that the player can't be blamed for. THere is a total mind body connection and his woes are traced to that...

    also how can you blame the WS on the infield IN??!

    an ELITE closer strikes that man out sends him to sit back down on the pine and allows his team to win the freakin world series. a wank closer (like MacDougal, or Mesa, or Benetiz) will crack under the pressure and serve up some trash. my gut tells me that Rivera lost his edge with that hit - he is still good but he has to prove to everyone that he can be the absolutely lights out pitcher that he once was. Closers are not like power pitchers or home run hitters that get better with age, they do have an expiration date its a gospel truth. [/b][/quote]
    Aha...his problems may be physical and not mental. The truth shall set you free. LOL.

    I think you are probably on to something. I am sure Mariano's best year(s) are behind him. My point is that if he is healthy...he can still be the top closer in the game, or real close to it.

    He has to stay healthy which has been no easy task for him. What is good though is that these injuries are not arm related. He had surgery in 1994 in the minors....I believe it was his shoulder. That has held up nicely.

  9. #29
    Maxman
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    Hey Bit:
    Just curious what is your favorite baseball team?

  10. #30
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Maxman[/i]@May 31 2003, 10:09 AM
    [b] Hey Bit:
    Just curious what is your favorite baseball team? [/b][/quote]
    it may sound lame but im not really a fan of teams at best im a bandwagoner - im in the Philadelphia Market so i see Phillies games, but overall i find myself watching players rather than teams. My faves pitchers are Barry Zito, Jake Peavy and Brett Myers. My fave hitters are Brian Giles, Manny, Delgado, Soriano, Ichiro.

    When i was a boy growing up i never played a sport that did not involve contact - basically if you can't hit people or wrestle them to the ground it wasn't the sport for me. im from LI in the spring and summer Lacrosse was huge in my town baseball was an afterthought at least in my house. i never really had an appreciation for the game.

    until very recently i was one of those "baseball sucks" people - until i got into these money leagues all of a sudden it was the most facinating thing in the world. Now i love watching baseball, doesn't really matter what team it is. or even if there are none of "my guys" on the team - its a wonderful game and no single task is harder in sports than hitting that little ball. Im more a fan of the NL than the AL cause i like the strategy of pitching to the pitcher, but overall im not really a fan of teams as much as players. Kinda like how i am with college football i might pick teams that i like from year to year but no real loyalties to any particular team, but great loyalty to the sport itself.

    I've been to a Mets game, two Phillies games and an Orioles game this season alone. I want to go the bronx this summer and maybe even a trip to Great American Ballpark in Cin if my schedule permits.

  11. #31
    Maxman
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    I was just curious. You do seem like a baseball fan but you are definitely not one of the "Yankees Suck" posters. But I couldn't remember you ever rooting for any particular team. It all makes sense now.

    Baseball is a cool sport. It is slower so I defintely understand when people say it is boring. But I coach my sons team and help out a friend with a HS team (Freshman). With the little kids we try to keep them moving, to prevent boredom from setting in.

    There are so many great stadiums to see. I would like to see them all. But I used to travel a lot for work and I would try to catch a game in whatever city I was in. A lot of the new parks are really cool...Milwuakee, Cleveland, Camden (if this can still be considered new). Boston and NY are the best old parks I have ever seen. Wrigley is on the list for the near future...haven't gotten there yet.

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