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Thread: Post all political and war topics here, part 2

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    The previous thread of the same title was closed because the volume of replies was causing server performance issues.

    Please feel free to continue the thread here.

  2. #2
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    Damn RB, just when I was going to declare my love to you for locking the political thread! :P

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    RB - U may want to try to get rid of some of those "moving avatars" and "moving pics in signatures" too. ;)

    I'm not a computer expert, but I know that those take up a HUGE amount of band width and too many at once can blow the server............. :rolleyes:

    OK, let the politics and religion talk resume. :blink:

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    [b]Jet Set[/b] - my wife was out of work for 14 months and I didn't complain about it or blame anyone or feel sorry for myself. She was patient, we dealt with it and she eventually got a very, very good job. What is your point? [b]Here's a valuable insight into conservative philosphy[/b]: Our experience gives us LESS "sympathy" for people who whine about their jobs or losing them. We had saved money judisciously in the years prior, we lived within our means, we did not accumulate consumer debt and had good credit. We adjusted our spending and lifestyle accordingly. Losing your job sucks and is a hardship. Hating your job sucks. Guess what? It's up to the INDIVIDUAL to take care of themself, prepare and make sensible choices. You talk about not wanting big government, but all of your solutions involve govt programs.

    gscott was whining and blaming everyone but himself for his unhappiness and bad work situation. I don't want to hear it.


    This may interest you. I saw Bowling too, but a little information is needed. This is from a review of Bowling by Dave Kopel.

    "[I]We return to Flint, Mich., for a long segment on Kayla Rowland, a six-year-old girl who was fatally shot in school by a male classmate the same age. Moore blames Michigan's requirement that welfare recipients work at a job. Because the killer's mother, Tamarla Owens, commuted to work in a shopping mall 70 hours a week, and because she still could not pay her rent, she was about to be evicted. She thus moved in with her brother, and then her unsupervised son found a handgun, brought it to school, and killed Kayla Rowland.

    [b]Actually, Owens earned $7.85 an hour from one job ($1,250 a month, almost entirely tax-free), plus at least the minimum wage from her second job, and received food stamps and medical care. Her rent was $300 a month. Michigan had rent-subsidy and child-care programs too, but Owens apparently did not know about them. So, contrary to the impression created by Moore, Michigan's welfare-to-work program is generous: Even without the rent subsidy, Owens earned more than enough to pay the rent. Perhaps Owens's caseworker should have told her about the available subsidies, but the caseworker's mistake hardly means that the Michigan system is the Dickensian horror portrayed by Moore.[/b]

    [b]Moore tells the audience that Ms. Owens and her son were living with Owens's brother. He doesn't tell the audience that their home was a crack house, or that the stolen gun was received by the brother from one of his customers, in exchange for drugs. [/b]

    "No one knew why the little boy wanted to shoot the little girl," says Moore. Actually, the killer was the class bully; said that he hated everyone at school; [b]had been suspended for stabbing a child with a pencil; and, subsequent to the shooting, stabbed another child with a knife.[/b]
    I]

    Yeah - some "dockumentary" filmmaker he is. I am sorry, but referencing Michael Moore will garner as much respect from me as a reference to Ann Coulter would engender from you. I can understand if you think he is entertaining and funny, but to take him seriously as any form of an objective journalist is ridiculous.

  5. #5
    5ever i agree michael moore is a schlock artist - filming a man with Alz, and putting it in your movie is just plain dirty

    --

    however i think you are being too harsh on Gscott - nowhere in his post was he whining, at least not as hard as you make it out to be - he said he lost his job a number of times and got a new one 6 times... read it again he seemed reasonable, not at all whining like you say he was.

    i mean you don't even care to address the fact that jobs, especially those in the manufacturing sector are hemmoraging overseas, never to return? Free trade has ruined many a small town economy, at the benefit of the shareholders. The unemployment rate, if it were recorded by OCED standards would be well over 12%

    Yes i realize that its the economic policies of a couple adminstrations back that affect the current situation, This all goes back to Reagan and the repealing of anti-trust laws. IN the near term the average citizen sees Bush spending all this time and energy trying to reshape the middle east at an enormous cost, while the lot of the average workingman gets worse.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by jets5ever[/i]@Sep 3 2003, 03:57 PM
    [b]
    I am sorry, but referencing Michael Moore will garner as much respect from me as a reference to Ann Coulter would engender from you. [/b][/quote]
    Ann Coulter laboriously documents and supports her specific contentions. Comparing the loudmouth buffoon Moore with a respected commentator like Coulter is ridiculous.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@Sep 3 2003, 02:58 PM
    [b] 5ever i agree michael moore is a schlock artist - filming a man with Alz, and putting it in your movie is just plain dirty

    --

    however i think you are being too harsh on Gscott - nowhere in his post was he whining, at least not as hard as you make it out to be - he said he lost his job a number of times and got a new one 6 times... read it again he seemed reasonable, not at all whining like you say he was.

    i mean you don't even care to address the fact that jobs, especially those in the manufacturing sector are hemmoraging overseas, never to return? Free trade has ruined many a small town economy, at the benefit of the shareholders. The unemployment rate, if it were recorded by OCED standards would be well over 12%

    Yes i realize that its the economic policies of a couple adminstrations back that affect the current situation, This all goes back to Reagan and the repealing of anti-trust laws. IN the near term the average citizen sees Bush spending all this time and energy trying to reshape the middle east at an enormous cost, while the lot of the average workingman gets worse. [/b][/quote]
    [b]Bit [/b]- what about NAFTA's effects?

    You are now speaking for the average citizen? Even though you desparately wish otherwise, every problem in the world would not be solved by the US pulling out of Iraq.

    maybe I am being hard on gscott, but he blames Bush for his situation and complains about his company. Leave or shut up!


    [b]Shakin [/b]- I agree about Coulter, I meant that [i]Jet Set[/i] would treat a Coulter reference the way I treat a Moore reference, with immediate dismissal. I should have made that clearer.

  8. #8
    Ann Coulter is a burned out ex-deadhead who a) doesn't know s--t from shinola b) shouldn't be taken seriously.

  9. #9
    as far as me whining, the only whining i'm doing is "wining and dining". i'm only stating facts. i don't waste my valuable time debating opinions which are like a$%holes and everybody has one. furthermore, you don't know me or anything about me so don't make the assumption that i'm unhappy about my employer or anything else. again i am simply stating facts.and before you even begin to assume you know anything about my educational backround by stating i should take a course in economics, maybe you should take a spelling course. and your 15% return so far this year, i got 27% so far. how's that for economics? i'm done with you. no one attacked you personally. show other people the same consideration. i'm done with this topic.

  10. #10
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by gscott[/i]@Sep 3 2003, 03:03 PM
    [b] as far as me whining, the only whining i'm doing is "wining and dining". i'm only stating facts. i don't waste my valuable time debating opinions which are like a$%holes and everybody has one. furthermore, you don't know me or anything about me so don't make the assumption that i'm unhappy about my employer or anything else. again i am simply stating facts.and before you even begin to assume you know anything about my educational backround by stating i should take a course in economics, maybe you should take a spelling course. and your 15% return so far this year, i got 27% so far. how's that for economics? i'm done with you. no one attacked you personally. show other people the same consideration. i'm done with this topic. [/b][/quote]
    Take it easy, hero. I am glad you have a 27% return. My post about that issue was directed to Outsider who says that there were no capital gains these days. You helped me prove my point about the tax cuts and refute his, thanks.

    You complained and complained and blamed Bush. If not to blame Bush, what was the point of your post?

    Further, I hope the irony of mis-spelling "background" in the very same sentence in which you tell me to take a spelling course is not lost on you, Einstein.

  11. #11
    [quote][i]Originally posted by jets5ever[/i]@Sep 3 2003, 04:03 PM
    [b] maybe I ma being hard on gscott, but he blames Bush for his situation and complains about his company. Leave or shut up!
    [/b][/quote]
    Hey man i think we can all agree that NAFTA sucks - you always accuse me of being partisan yet at every turn yourself try to turn this into a partisan mudslinging - yes Clinton signed it but he had a REpublican congress begging for it - all in all its not important and more than that its not just nafta and you know it - this goes all the way back to regeanomics -

    all im saying is how is Gscot whiny? He says

    "i am in the technical field and am lucky enough to be working for a very large company that provides me with a very good living. i am also not so closed minded or blind to the fact that there are lot's of people out there that are very talented and are unemployed."

    that doesn't sound whiny to me. that doesn't sound like hates his situation and blames bush for it.

    I mean he goes on yes - his one beef is that the company he works for hasn't given a wage increase for 8 years - i mean nothing, nada, not keeping pace with inflation - that's something a man can complain about and not be told to shut up IMO. That's a legit complaint. You say just get a new job or shut up but that's so elitist its ridiculous.

    i think you are more pissed about:

    "the point is that this administration has failed miserably in my opinion. there is more to running this country than boosting patriotic morale. this is a business and we're going broke."

    in many senses he is correct - what has the Bush Admin done RIGHT? as a nation we are on the way to the biggest deficit EVER. If you were running a business and were spending at the rate of the gov't and taking in the revenues that the gov't was taking in - by any evaluation YOUD BE GOING BROKE MY FRIEND!!!

    so the guy has ONE complaint and you say 'he complained and complained'

    that's not right

    there are about 3 people who participate in this thread regularly why do you have to take it upon yourself to keep it that way?

    gscott don't listen to this blowhard - your opinion is valued and my advice is to come back from time to time and contribute.

  12. #12
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti+Sep 3 2003, 03:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (bitonti @ Sep 3 2003, 03:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--jets5ever[/i]@Sep 3 2003, 04:03 PM
    [b] maybe I ma being hard on gscott, but he blames Bush for his situation and complains about his company.* Leave or shut up&#33;
    [/b][/quote]
    Hey man i think we can all agree that NAFTA sucks - you always accuse me of being partisan yet at every turn yourself try to turn this into a partisan mudslinging - yes Clinton signed it but he had a REpublican congress begging for it - all in all its not important and more than that its not just nafta and you know it - this goes all the way back to regeanomics -

    all im saying is how is Gscot whiny? He says

    "i am in the technical field and am lucky enough to be working for a very large company that provides me with a very good living. i am also not so closed minded or blind to the fact that there are lot&#39;s of people out there that are very talented and are unemployed."

    that doesn&#39;t sound whiny to me. that doesn&#39;t sound like hates his situation and blames bush for it.

    I mean he goes on yes - his one beef is that the company he works for hasn&#39;t given a wage increase for 8 years - i mean nothing, nada, not keeping pace with inflation - that&#39;s something a man can complain about and not be told to shut up IMO. That&#39;s a legit complaint. You say just get a new job or shut up but that&#39;s so elitist its ridiculous.

    i think you are more pissed about:

    "the point is that this administration has failed miserably in my opinion. there is more to running this country than boosting patriotic morale. this is a business and we&#39;re going broke."

    in many senses he is correct - what has the Bush Admin done RIGHT? as a nation we are on the way to the biggest deficit EVER. If you were running a business and were spending at the rate of the gov&#39;t and taking in the revenues that the gov&#39;t was taking in - by any evaluation YOUD BE GOING BROKE MY FRIEND&#33;&#33;&#33; [/b][/quote]
    How is my post elitist? Seriously. He has complaints about his company, obviously they haven&#39;t been addressed to his satisfaction. Suggesting that he stop complaining and look elsewhere is elitst.

    [b]e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-ltzm, -l-)
    n.
    The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

    The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
    Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class. [/b]

    Please tell me how my post fits that definition. It is hilarious to me that I rail against what I perceive to be his sense of entitlement, yet get accused of being elitist. Unbelievable.


    I am not pissed about anything he wrote. He was complaining. You are saying he didn&#39;t blame Bush. If so, you can&#39;t read. His last sentence sums up his feelings perfectly. The tech sector was hit the hardest after the bubble burst, Bush had nothing to do with it and could do nothing to stop it or ameliorate it, unless you want him to spend evern more. He is combining two separate issues and rationalizing.

    Bush spends like a drunken sailor on leave in Thailand. I can add and subtract just fine, I know this. What does that have to do with the bubble bursting? Also - what do you know about the impact of deficits, seriously? Friggin PhD&#39;s disagree as to how important they are, but yes, you and gscott have it all down pat. Just say "Reaganomics" and accuse ME of being overly partisan, when your answer on every issue is, "If we pulled out of Iraq, cancer would we cured&#33;&#33;&#33;"

  13. #13
    your post isn&#39;t elitist - that one statement about "just get a new job or shuttup" is elitist IMO - without going into the specifics (i don&#39;t know gscott) changing industries or jobs is not something that people can just "DO" or "shutup" - its usually very complex and takes period of adjustment (with no income coming in), also a certain level of education that not everyone has to allow this - yes its possible and yes its something that perhaps he should look into but when you say "get another job or shut up" that&#39;s just harsh and not really based in reality. lets just say oppoutunity knocks alot more for some than others and its not all based on how hard you work. i know you know that.

    im still waiting for an explaination that will convince me deficit economics is a good thing. if you have one, im all ears. Seriously - ive said time and time again i don&#39;t understand how it can work out to be a positive. at least i am trying to grapple with these issues - youd rather insult people than enlighten them. Why don&#39;t you tell us what you know?

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@Sep 3 2003, 03:31 PM
    [b] your post isn&#39;t elitist - that one statement about "just get a new job or shuttup" is elitist IMO - without going into the specifics (i don&#39;t know gscott) changing industries or jobs is not something that people can just "DO" or "shutup" - its usually very complex and takes period of adjustment (with no income coming in), also a certain level of education that not everyone has to allow this - yes its possible and yes its something that perhaps he should look into but when you say "get another job or shut up" that&#39;s just harsh and not really based in reality. lets just say oppoutunity knocks alot more for some than others and its not all based on how hard you work. i know you know that.

    im still waiting for an explaination that will convince me deficit economics is a good thing. if you have one, im all ears. Seriously - ive said time and time again i don&#39;t understand how it can work out to be a positive. at least i am trying to grapple with these issues - youd rather insult people than enlighten them. Why don&#39;t you tell us what you know? [/b][/quote]
    Bitonti - Ok, I agree that the "leave or shut up" statement is harsh. [b]GSCOTT - I apologize. [/b] Seriously. But I have to stress that I am not saying he should change industries, just change [i]companies.[/i] Why can&#39;t he get his resume together and look around while he still is employed at his current firm? Why does he have to quit first? I [i]suspect [/i]that he&#39;s either not really that annoyed by his company or that he&#39;s just trying to dig Bush and rationalizing to do it by mentionning something about his company that he does&#39;t like. If you want to critque Bush, fine, but Bush has NOTHING AT ALL to do with how his company treats their employees.

    I was trying to make a point about individual responsibility and accountability, not butcher Gscott. Again, I apologize to him.

    Regarding deficits, read "Deficit Hysteria" by Arthur Benavie. It&#39;s good.

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    Federal Budget Deficits in and of themselves aren&#39;t a bad thing. However, the out of control deficits that we have today are a disaster.

    Its interesting that Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush and George W. Bush [b]NEVER[/b] submitted a balanced budget proposal to the Congress.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by tailgators[/i]@Sep 3 2003, 03:49 PM
    [b] Federal Budget Deficits in and of themselves aren&#39;t a bad thing. However, the out of control deficits that we have today are a disaster.

    Its interesting that Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush and George W. Bush [b]NEVER[/b] submitted a balanced budget proposal to the Congress. [/b][/quote]
    Hey, Bush spends like a drunk at a casino, I know this and am not pumped about it, believe me.

    The GOP-controlled Congress during Clinton&#39;s years definitely blocked a lot of his planned spending and that was very instrumental in the "balanced" budget, which wasn&#39;t really balanced anyway considering how errouneously optimistic their projections were. Also - the companies that engaged in fraud and essentially reached back in time and re-stated earnings didn&#39;t help either, but that has nothing to do with Clinton, Bush or Reagan and everything to do with greed and (yes Bitonti) [b]elitism&#33;[/b] ;)

  17. #17
    5ever appreciate that post and will look into the book.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by tailgators[/i]@Sep 3 2003, 04:49 PM
    [b] Its interesting that Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush and George W. Bush [b]NEVER[/b] submitted a balanced budget proposal to the Congress. [/b][/quote]
    It&#39;s interesting that they never sold state of the art technology to our enemies for campaign cash or diddled their interns either&#33;

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Spirit of Weeb+Sep 3 2003, 05:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (Spirit of Weeb @ Sep 3 2003, 05:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--tailgators[/i]@Sep 3 2003, 04:49 PM
    [b] Its interesting that Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush and George W. Bush [b]NEVER[/b] submitted a balanced budget proposal to the Congress. [/b][/quote]
    It&#39;s interesting that they never sold state of the art technology to our enemies for campaign cash or diddled their interns either&#33; [/b][/quote]
    Weeb I guess you forgot about Iran-Contra?

  20. #20
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Spirit of Weeb[/i]@Sep 3 2003, 05:06 PM
    [b] It&#39;s interesting that they never sold state of the art technology to our enemies for campaign cash [/b][/quote]
    well you are right about campaign cash but don&#39;t forget

    -Reagan&#39;s CIA armed and trained Bin Ladin

    -Saddam Hussain was considered a strong US ally during the early 80s and he bought his share of weapons.

    -don&#39;t forget Iran-Contra affair

    if you judge Clinton by who he was selling weapons to then its only fair to judge the others by who they were not just SELLING but also GIVING weapons to

    as for the interns - hey man get over it - id rather the Prez be bangin interns than sending Americans to die for nothing.

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