I've been getting more and more fed up with ESPN for a while, from Chris Bermans Retard Act to the complete dumbing down of everything from pre-game shows to their own brand of "original" tripe programming.
Well, this thing with Rush Limbaugh is simply the last straw, he was brought in to state OPINIONS, he stated his OPINION, and he "resigns" 3 days later? Give me a break. What ever happened to Freedom of Expression in this country? Does that only go 100% if you're a minority? He said what he said being critical of the MEDIA, NOT McNabb, and anyone who doesn't understand that, from McNabb himself all the way to idiot posters here, are simply stupid. Did Tom Jackson and Michael Irvin have a problem with what he said, or did they "develop" a problem with it when they were TOLD TO by Jesse Jackson etc., or were they just to STUPID to even comprehend what the man was saying?
Where was the outcry and demands for resignation when that MORON Dusty Baker stated his ridiculous opinion on White Ballplayers "not being as good in the heat" as blacks? Thats a far more blatantly RACIST statement, but there were ZERO calls for his resignation, just, "Oh, that rascal Dusty, hes so funny..."
I'm just so tired of it all. I also think its PATHETIC how the oh so "TOLERANT" liberals are revelling in Rushs apparent addiction to painkillers. If its some Hollywood Liberal or Brett Favre, its "Oh, how sad. He needs therapy and support" for his condition, but when its someone you disagree with, its, "Good, I hope his life is ruined". Tolerant my ass. Kinda like how the Libs keep telling us its wrong to speak unkindly toward the "Peacefull people of Islam", but anyone who worships God or is religious in any way here in the U.S. is a "religious Zealot, Right-Wing Fundamentalist, or Ignorant Hillbilly". We're going to ****ing hell in a handbasket, but as long as Tim Robbins is happy, God is exiled from all U.S. Public areas and Rush goes to jail, we're OK...
In either event, I am done HERE AND FOREVER watching ANY product of ESPN. Its either Fox Sports, the 'net or a newspaper from here on out.
Another take-Barra has worked for ESPN, the Wall Street Journal and several other publications. I'm not saying I agree with him, but numbers don't lie. But they aren't everything.The problem most statisitical analyses of football run into don't take into account is how an offense is run, what part a QB is responsible for relative to other skill players, how his talent adds or detracts from other players, how the games situation and score impact on play selection and what an offense is trying to do in that situation, and so on. Football can't be reduced to numbers like baseball. I don't know, but assume that if the Eagles were winning most of their games in the 2nd half, with that defense you might not be inclined to do much more than run out the clock rather than try to score. The Eagles having a poor to nothing running game hasalso put alot of the burden of the offense on McNabb. On his one comparison, I'd bet that the Bucs would package Johnson to Philly tommorrow for Mcnabb.
Rush was right: McNabb isn’t a great quarterback, and the media does overrate him because he is black
By Allen Barra
Oct. 2 — In his notorious ESPN comments last Sunday night, Rush Limbaugh said he never thought the Philadelphia Eagles’ Donovan McNabb was “that good of a quarterback.” If Limbaugh were a more astute analyst, he would have been even harsher and said, “Donovan McNabb is barely a mediocre quarterback.” But other than that, Limbaugh pretty much spoke the truth. Limbaugh lost his job for saying in public what many football fans and analysts have been saying privately for the past couple of seasons.
LET’S REVIEW: McNabb, he said, is “overrated ... what we have here is a little social concern in the NFL. The media has been very desirous that a black quarterback can do well-black coaches and black quarterbacks doing well.”
“There’s a little hope invested in McNabb, and he got a lot of credit for the performance of his team that he didn’t deserve. The defense carried this team.”
Let’s take the football stuff first. For the past four seasons, the Philadelphia Eagles have had one of the best defenses in the National Football League and have failed to make it to the Super Bowl primarily because of an ineffective offense — an offense run by Donovan McNabb. McNabb was a great college quarterback, in my estimation one of the best of the ’90s while at Syracuse. (For the record, I helped persuade ESPN Magazine, then called ESPN Total Sports, to put him on the cover of the 1998 college-football preview issue.) He is one of the most talented athletes in the NFL, but that talent has not translated into greatness as a pro quarterback.
McNabb has started for the Eagles since the 2000 season. In that time, the Eagles offense has never ranked higher than 10th in the league in yards gained. In fact, their 10th-place rank in 2002 was easily their best; in their two previous seasons, they were 17th in a 32-team league. They rank 31st so far in 2003.
In contrast, the Eagles defense in those four seasons has never ranked lower than 10th in yards allowed. In 2001, they were seventh; in 2002 they were fourth; this year they’re fifth. It shouldn’t take a football Einstein to see that the Eagles’ strength over the past few seasons has been on defense, and Limbaugh is no football Einstein, which is probably why he spotted it.
The news that the Eagles defense has “carried” them over this period should be neither surprising nor controversial to anyone with access to simple NFL statistics — or for that matter, with access to a television. Yet, McNabb has received an overwhelming share of media attention and thus the credit. Now why is this?
Let’s look at a quarterback with similar numbers who also plays for a team with a great defense. I don’t know anyone who would call Brad Johnson one of the best quarterbacks in pro football — which is how McNabb is often referred to. In fact, I don’t know anyone who would call Brad Johnson, on the evidence of his 10-year NFL career, much more than mediocre. Yet, Johnson’s NFL career passer rating, as of last Sunday, is 7.3 points higher than McNabb’s (84.8 to 77.5), he has completed his passes at a higher rate (61.8 percent to 56.4 percent) and has averaged significantly more yards per pass (6.84 to 5.91). McNabb excels in just one area, running, where he has gained 2,040 yards and scored 14 touchdowns to Johnson’s 467 and seven. But McNabb has also been sacked more frequently than Johnson-more than once, on average, per game, which negates much of the rushing advantage.
In other words, in just about every way, Brad Johnson has been a more effective quarterback than McNabb and over a longer period.
WIN OR LOSE
And even if you say the stats don’t matter and that a quarterback’s job is to win games, Johnson comes out ahead. Johnson has something McNabb doesn’t, a Super Bowl ring, which he went on to win after his Bucs trounced McNabb’s Eagles in last year’s NFC championship game by a score of 27-10. The Bucs and Eagles were regarded by everyone as having the two best defenses in the NFL last year. When they played in the championship game, the difference was that the Bucs defense completely bottled up McNabb while the Eagles defense couldn’t stop Johnson.
In terms of performance, many NFL quarterbacks should be ranked ahead of McNabb. But McNabb has represented something special to all of us since he started his first game in the NFL, and we all know what that is.
Limbaugh is being excoriated for making race an issue in the NFL. This is hypocrisy. I don’t know of a football writer who didn’t regard the dearth of black NFL quarterbacks as one of the most important issues in the late ’80s and early ’90s. (The topic really caught fire after 1988, when Doug Williams of the Washington Redskins became the first black quarterback to win a Super Bowl.)
So far, no black quarterback has been able to dominate a league in which the majority of the players are black. To pretend that many of us didn’t want McNabb to be the best quarterback in the NFL because he’s black is absurd. To say that we shouldn’t root for a quarterback to win because he’s black is every bit as nonsensical as to say that we shouldn’t have rooted for Jackie Robinson to succeed because he was black. (Please, I don’t need to be reminded that McNabb’s situation is not so difficult or important as Robinson’s-I’m talking about a principle.)
Consequently, it is equally absurd to say that the sports media haven’t overrated Donovan McNabb because he’s black. I’m sorry to have to say it; he is the quarterback for a team I root for. Instead of calling him overrated, I wish I could be admiring his Super Bowl rings. But the truth is that I and a great many other sportswriters have chosen for the past few years to see McNabb as a better player than he has been because we want him to be.
Rush Limbaugh didn’t say Donovan McNabb was a bad quarterback because he is black. He said that the media have overrated McNabb because he is black, and Limbaugh is right. He didn’t say anything that he shouldn’t have said, and in fact he said things that other commentators should have been saying for some time now. I should have said them myself. I mean, if they didn’t hire Rush Limbaugh to say things like this, what they did they hire him for? To talk about the prevent defense?
Allen Barra is the author of “Clearing the Bases: The Greatest Baseball Debates of the Last Century.”
On the other side of the coin, How about the racist, ignorant, bigot that Michael Irvin is. Everything he says revolves around the color of someones skin.
It's always a black & White thing with him.
No one says anything about that. ...... Fackin Amazing
I'm done with ESPN too...and have been ever since they stooped to the level of hiring a POLITICAL COMMENTATOR -- a man with a clear agenda -- for a sports show, just for the sake of attracting more conservative (read white men) viewers. Pathetic...
His comments made no sense anyway...has he heard of McNair, Culpepper, Vick? It's not like the media has only McNabb to chose from if they're looking to promote a black quarterback. I don't think his comments were the result of racism, I think they're the result of knowing nothing about football...which is why he should never have been hired.
Originally posted by gaffneycatch@Oct 3 2003, 12:37 AM I'm done with ESPN too...and have been ever since they stooped to the level of hiring a POLITICAL COMMENTATOR -- a man with a clear agenda -- for a sports show, just for the sake of attracting more conservative (read white men) viewers. Pathetic...
His comments made no sense anyway...has he heard of McNair, Culpepper, Vick?
Want to attract "White Men" to watch a show? Hire LITERATE, knowledgable commentators, rather than the current "Yo Dawg, you my brutha'", "Booyah, kid", "I gots to wear my pimp-daddy zoot suits" crowd behind the desks nowadays.
Between Brian Cox, Michael Irvin, Deion Sanders and for a short time Eric "unintelliginle" Dickerson, I think NFL shows have hired the dumbest, most inarticulate human beings on the planet to "speak" on television. I'm just tired of everything marketed towards the lowest common denominator, and in fact, if Black "Leaders" truly cared about the advancement of the Black Community, THEY should be outraged that these are the types of idiots representing the Black Community on television while Black women wear T-Shirts that say "Condeleeza ain't MY sister". Sad. I guess education, intelligence and bearing can't compete with being "pimped out, sportin the bling-bling and phat".
Whatever. If I worked for ESPN and expressed this opinion, I guess I'd be out of a job because I'm obviously a rampant, backwater bigot not deserving of having an opinion or Freedom of Speech protected by the First Amendment....
P.S. Vick already IS overrated as a QB along with McNabb, so whats your point about naming him?
Originally posted by Bloodflowsgreen@Oct 3 2003, 12:15 AM On the other side of the coin, How about the racist, ignorant, bigot that Michael Irvin is. Everything he says revolves around the color of someones skin.
It's always a black & White thing with him.
No one says anything about that. ...... Fackin Amazing
I haven't heard much from Irvin, but I can tell you for a fact, that former Jet Brian Cox caused quite a stir on message boards devoted to the Colts recently, after he said something like this: "Peyton Manning is what white America wants for a QB"* <_<
Look, Cox, like Rush, should have the right to say what he feels, but where's the consistency here? I wonder if Cox has now been told to cut those "types" of remarks out of his schtick?
Thing is, Manning was just named AFC player of the month, with a 104 passer rating and is on pace to throw 36 TD's and 4,000 yards this season......
Let Cox say what he wants, and deal with reality when the facts emerge. Disney, a far left-wing company, has decided that despite making similar comments, Rush would have to leave, while Brian could stay.
By the way, no one here is gonna come out the better for this, except the race baitors like Sharpton, Jackson and Wesley Clark. McNabb never asked this, but regretably this thing could be a huge harm to his career or confidence. Even aside from the race issue, too many are feeling he's "overhyped" and this is turning up the already "stifling" pressure on him quite a bit.
*Just to explain more, most in Indy got the feeling that he was trying to say Peyton is so "unathletic/ non-mobile", that he doesn't really belong as a QB in modern day NFL :o :blink:
Hey, Canada Jet what's up buddy? Kevin Lowe couldn't get Messier to go back to Alberta? :lol: .....
I bet a bunch of Rangers fans were hoping he would
By the way, check in more often and earlier. I think I'm about ready to bust out another post that urges the Jets to sign to Rickey Ray to develop as a back-up, until he gets ready to start in the NFL.
I'd be utterly shocked if there wasn't a "bidding war" for Ray at some point. May not be as intense as the Marc Boerigther bidding was, but he seems to be much better coming out than Dickenson and Burris and, perhaps, Jeff Garcia
Let's start some NHL threads around here (Sooth said they can stay on the main board). It's been severely lacking around here since the NHL draft
My post was not in defense of Michael Irvin or any of the other commentators on ESPN. It was condemning the hiring of Limbaugh, who has no qualifications to be on the show, as was put there soley to appeal to, as I said, conservative viewers (who are largely white men, an important demographic to ESPN). Hiring someone with such a blatant political agenda is inappropriate for a show on the NFL, and, in my opinion, offensive. At least the others, idiots or not, have resumes that would suggest some expertise in the subject (i.e., they're former players).
As for Vick, I agree that he's been hyped big time...perhaps even over-rated. And I take no issue with arguing that McNabb was over-rated...I don't agree that it's because of their skin color, however. Brady was also over-rated, in my opinion...and, perhaps Chad is too (although I hope not...it remains to be seen though). My point was, I think the press has plenty of good black quarterbacks to chose from -- that the days of desperately searching for a black quarterback to hype, whether he's good or bad, just to show that the NFL doesn't have some type of glass ceiling when it comes to qb's, are long over. There are plenty of good black qb's...some are over-hyped, as are some white qb's, because that's just what the press does.
by the way, I agree that Limbaugh shouldn't have been fired for his comments...as I said, they reflected ignorance, in my opinion, not racism. But, I'm not shedding any tears for him either...I don't need politics along with my football.
I dont agree with Rush on this one but he should not have been fired or had to quit over it. It was just an opinion that he was over hyped due to his skin color. If he said Mcnabb is not good due to his skin color that would be another thing all together. he did not. he said the media hyped him. I don't agee that they did but what is wrong with that.
P.S. I think McNabb is a great QB no matter what color he is.
yeah, good point, Omaha...the distinction between saying he's been over-hyped because he's black rather than he's not that good because he's black is an important one...and one that a lot Limbaugh critics are not making. now, i'm a strong Limbaugh critic -- but want to be fair.
whoever said they are going to watch fox pre game?! what the hell are you thinking...racism sucks, but so does horrible pre game shows...and fox is the king of horrible pre game shows...a bunch of dumbasses who would rather joke about nothin than talk about football../
When member of a "protected group", makes a blatantly racist statement it is over look. From Baker to Sharpton, to Cox it is over looked and ignored by the national media.
When a member of the most maligned and discriminated against group, white males, makes a statement they are hung out to dry in a heart beat.
Further example that you may not have heard of, in CA there is a young lady looking to explore her heritage. So she checked out the current social groups promoted and supported by the school system. The Hispanic club, the Black organization, the Asian club, and nothing addressed her heritage.
So she proposed to start a club that fits, as the other fit their member's background, her needs. Problem being is she is white. And every one from the school administration to that loud mouth philanderer Jesse Jackson has called her a racist.
East Coast of the United States - subject to change on short notice
You know I have to tell you the black community in general is way too sensitive about racial issues. the simple truth is race has not been the issue it once was for a long time now and the whole racial oppression thing has long been played out. There needs to be consistency in criticism. If the black community called for Limbuaghs job because of what he said (which in my opinion was blown out of proportion as well as out of context) then Irvin and Cox should have both lost their jobs a long time ago, it seems like every other broadcast they say something blatantly racist or just downright ignorant. But the white community as well as the black community continually over look it. Why? Because the white community doesn't take offense to it and the black community think's it's O.K. Freedom of speech, where has it gone? I am Puerto-Rican and I bore my share of racial slurs as a kid growing up in a predominantly white community but race has never been an issue to me and I look at everyone as equals but in my opinion if what happened to Rush Limbaugh is going to be used an as an example of what not to do, then Irvin and Cox should have both been fired a long, long time ago! I will continue to watch ESPN cause in my opinion you can't get better sports coverage and news on T.V. anywhere and there are some good commentators such as Tom Jackson. Cox and Irvin could both learn alot about how to conduct yourself like a professional by watching him for a few years. <_<
I`ll say only this when replying about the comments Dusty made,and the lack of out over them.Who`s suppose to complain,the same people who complain about Rush or those who are looking to explain away his comments.Opposition outcry cause Rush to resign,why didn`t opposition outcry do the same for Dusty.It was reported on all the newspapers and TV stations,just like Rush situation was.Maybe you should look in the mirror,and ask yourself if you did enough yourself,together with all those who agree with your position to attain the proper outcome.Monorities have had years of practice at complaining,maybe that`s why they`re so good at it.By the way,I`m a Monority,and my 1st Impression of the comments were:"The guy`s right,but you can`t talk like that in the media.Problem is,Rush has been talking like that forever.Note,the Man wasn`t fired,he resigned.It would have been interesting to see if ESPN would have fired him if he didn`t resigned.Now I know you will say that he didn`t resigned,but a person like Rush,with all his supporters,should have forced ESPN to publicly fire him,because they hired him for exactly what they got. The situation that exist now is not right,but it`s why did it have to be created in the 1st place.Do you know what the difference is between Racism and prejudice.You are prejudice,and so am I,and just about everyone i`ve ever met.Neither of us our racist,and I find absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Tailgators, just curious which you think is more effective - Prostesting by waving little signs and yelling catchy slogans like your liberal cronies do OR by simply not patronizing a business by not buying/viewing their product ?
Originally posted by kevin45@Oct 3 2003, 09:13 AM Tailgators, just curious which you think is more effective - Prostesting by waving little signs and yelling catchy slogans like your liberal cronies do OR by simply not patronizing a business by not buying/viewing their product ?
Usually neither. Most protests are ignored and boycotts (which really is just another form of protest) are just too difficult to organize.