Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 21

Thread: The Plane that crashed in PA on 9-11

  1. #1
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    11,692
    Post Thanks / Like
    I mean no disrespect to anyone if they lost a loved one on that plane. But I think and have thought for a while that the government shot that plane out of the air. I further think that the Hero story was either invented or exaggerated.

    There have been very few public details released about the forensic evidence and I have heard that several witnesses have said that they saw the plane explode in the air and that there may not have been a crash scene that was consistent with the type of impact from a 100% intact plane. I.e. - parts of the plane that were simply too far apart to have been attached up until impact, etc.

    Does anyone else think so?

    I should stipulate that I think the government would have been perfectly in the right to have shot this plane down, and further, I think the public would have understood. However, if true, I also can understand why they would squash this story. This is one of those things that is beyong two-party politics, IMO. I think that the USA would do this regardless of who was President and would also cover it up.

    In fact, I kind of hope they did shoot it down. It saved lives and this story, even if false, had a good effect.

    The black box, to my knowledge, was never recovered or at least, never declassified? The only "evidence" about a passenger revolt was a few cell phones calls about "let's roll" etc? Flimsy, IMO.


    Am I crazy? I usually hate conspiracy theories....am I missing some evidence, was the black box made public??

  2. #2
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Kingston, NY
    Posts
    3,975
    Post Thanks / Like
    I'm inclined to believe that the passengers on this flight were indeed hero's who spared our nation another devastating pshycological blow. I shudder when I conjur up the image of the Capitol Dome or the White House destroyed.

    If you recall, the families if the victims were allowed to listen to the tape from the cockpit voice recorder. The recording on this tape indicates that there was a "struggle" in the cockpit.

    Additionally, at the time there were still thousands of planes flying within the U.S. Airspace. It's my guess that it would've been extremly difficult to locate, identify, and destroy this aircraft with the precision needed all the while under the most stressful conditions.

    No, these passengers were indeed hero's. God Bless them.

  3. #3
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    11,692
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by tailgators[/i]@Oct 10 2003, 02:57 PM
    [b] I'm inclined to believe that the passengers on this flight were indeed hero's who spared our nation another devastating pshycological blow. I shudder when I conjur up the image of the Capitol Dome or the White House destroyed.

    If you recall, the families if the victims were allowed to listen to the tape from the cockpit voice recorder. The recording on this tape indicates that there was a "struggle" in the cockpit.

    Additionally, at the time there were still thousands of planes flying within the U.S. Airspace. It's my guess that it would've been extremly difficult to locate, identify, and destroy this aircraft with the precision needed all the while under the most stressful conditions.

    No, these passengers were indeed hero's. God Bless them. [/b][/quote]
    How do they know that the tape they listened to was authentic?

    But you're right, it would have been difficult to locate it and shoot it. That is a good point.

    Hey - I am just throwing this out there, I could be and probably am wrong....

  4. #4
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Kingston, NY
    Posts
    3,975
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by jets5ever+Oct 10 2003, 04:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (jets5ever @ Oct 10 2003, 04:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--tailgators[/i]@Oct 10 2003, 02:57 PM
    [b] I&#39;m inclined to believe that the passengers on this flight were indeed hero&#39;s who spared our nation another devastating pshycological blow. I shudder when I conjur up the image of the Capitol Dome or the White House destroyed.

    If you recall, the families if the victims were allowed to listen to the tape from the cockpit voice recorder. The recording on this tape indicates that there was a "struggle" in the cockpit.

    Additionally, at the time there were still thousands of planes flying within the U.S. Airspace. It&#39;s my guess that it would&#39;ve been extremly difficult to locate, identify, and destroy this aircraft with the precision needed all the while under the most stressful conditions.

    No, these passengers were indeed hero&#39;s. God Bless them. [/b][/quote]
    How do they know that the tape they listened to was authentic?

    But you&#39;re right, it would have been difficult to locate it and shoot it. That is a good point.

    Hey - I am just throwing this out there, I could be and probably am wrong.... [/b][/quote]
    From what I remember some of the family members were able to recognize the voices of their family members.

    On the difficulty issue another factor would&#39;ve been shooting the plane down so it would crash in a unpopulated area.

    Besides If I chose to believe your theory, wouldn&#39;t I be calling Bush a liar. I&#39;d never want to do that.

  5. #5
    All League
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    851
    Post Thanks / Like
    The plane crashed in Western PA, well after the other 3 had hit their targets. Whether or not the actual crash was the result of passenger revolt or being shot down, I am confident there was no way they were letting that thing get within 100 miles of Washington.

    Equally interesting is the documentation that they were tracking the South Tower #2 plane well before its impact, but simply did not know how or when to react before it was over congested ground space to do anything. Not to make this thread political, but this is EXACTLY why I think it&#39;s unfair to "blame" 9/11 singularly on Bush or Clinton or even one alphabet soup agency. Nobody saw anything like this coming down the pipe, and nothing like this had ever happened before.

  6. #6
    All League
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Middletown Md
    Posts
    673
    Post Thanks / Like
    Wow.....What a question to ask.....If you must know I was one of the Air Traffic Controllers on duty that day and the plane that went down in Pennsylvania went through one of the sectors in my particular area { along with the plane that hit the pentagon } so I think I can probably add a little insight into what we think happened that morning.

    As for the plane that hit the pentagon we had no idea at that time what was going on, we handed that plane off to Indianapolis Center about 50 or so miles west of Charleston West Virginia and were told they lost radar contact 2 or 3 minutes after that, We in the actual control room had no idea at that time what happened in New York and us and Indy Center thought at the time that there was a tragic mechanical problem that may have brought that plane down, we then learned about what happened at the WTC and were told to look for anything suspicious, A buddy of mine working in another area closer to D.C swears the military found the plane headed to the pentagon but with all the confusion going on the military couldn&#39;t get approval to take it down, To me that seems likely because by the time that plane got close to D.C they had scrambled the fighters and were patrolling the area so a jet headed straight for D.C with no transponder would&#39;ve had to draw someones attention but it was equally likely to get anyone to give the order to take it down at that time would&#39;ve been tough, what if the plane just lost radios and transponder and was trying to head back to Dulles, that&#39;s unlikely but possible so to shoot it down at that time was a tough thing to do.

    As for Pennsylvania, All I can say is everybody and I mean everybody who was in my control room as well as Cleveland Centers control room {who was actually working the plane } was completely aware that plane reversed course and was headed towards D.C, the military by that time had figured out what was going on and also were on top of that situation the moment that plane turned off its transponder and radios, there were fighters in the immediate area who were aware as well, I and everybody else who worked with me that day believes the military took it down, if you remember the initial news reports about it they mentioned 2 crash sites, one 5 or so miles from the other, anyone who can explain what those passengers could&#39;ve done to cause that please clue me in cause I don&#39;t see it, it seems something shooting a chunk off the plane would be the only thing to do that, after the first days coverage we stopped hearing about the 2 seperate sites and began hearing about the courageous passengers which is fine with me, maybe we neded something to feel good about at that time and if they had to concoct a feel good story to take a little edge off what happened that tragic day, then so be it.

  7. #7
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    11,692
    Post Thanks / Like
    Thanks Maryland.

    Do you know if they ever recovered the black box, or, I mean, if they&#39;ve said if they&#39;ve recovered it?

    I am pretty sure someone, somewhere has it. But has it been released?

  8. #8
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Kingston, NY
    Posts
    3,975
    Post Thanks / Like
    I must be living in an altered state today because I&#39;m gonna defend Bush on this.

    No way in the world would any U.S. president be brazen enough to tell a lie of this proportion. Besides do you guys realize how many people would need to be in on a secret like this? It would leak like a sieve.

    IMO Bush was 100% truthful about this very tragic event.

  9. #9
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Philly
    Posts
    38,782
    Post Thanks / Like
    i agree - how can a plane that supposedly did nothing but hit the ground have two crash sites, seperated by miles? it doesn&#39;t make sense.

    Also i agree it was the right call to shoot em down and also the right call to cover it up. People are idiots and can&#39;t handle the fact that its the job of the gov&#39;t to protect them, even if it means killing them in the process.

  10. #10
    All League
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Middletown Md
    Posts
    673
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by jets5ever[/i]@Oct 13 2003, 08:32 AM
    [b] Thanks Maryland.

    Do you know if they ever recovered the black box, or, I mean, if they&#39;ve said if they&#39;ve recovered it?

    I am pretty sure someone, somewhere has it. But has it been released? [/b][/quote]
    Yes, I believe they did recover the black box and cockpit voice recorder { I&#39;m no pilot but I believe they are 2 different things }.

    I believe they allowed relatives of the victims to hear the voice recorders final minutes and I recall something in the news stating the relatives heard a struggle going on in the cockpit.

    I believe their very may have been a struggle going on at the time but IMHO the passengers ran out of time and that plane was taken down { rightfully so } by the fighters who were in the immediate area.

    I have spoken to other controllers about this and we all believed at the time the military took it down and still believe it to this day.

    I also wonder how this never got out, I&#39;ve heard of a couple of books about 9/11 who speculate the plane was shot down but the media doesn&#39;t play it up so the word really doesn&#39;t spread, the media IMHO has a stake in this too, how else can it be explained about them initially reporting two seperate crash sites, then, totally disregarding that info and reporting about the passenger theory, the only reasonable explaination is that they felt it was better for the country to believe the passengers rose up and thwarted the terrorists and I for agree with them and am glad they did.

  11. #11
    All League
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    851
    Post Thanks / Like
    I also have never had a problem with any of Bush&#39;s actions that day other than the weird thing about not leaving the classroom he was teaching kids in; it&#39;s not that I believe there was any conspiracy or cover-up or advance knowledge etc., just that it was &#39;odd&#39; to say the least.

    But to me, even bigger than the mystery of the PA plane was the one that hit the pentagon. Wasn&#39;t that thing in the air for barely 12 minutes? That&#39;s a hell of a short time to arrange a hijacking, successfully take out a cockpit, and crash a plane. Forget a military plane having time to react, which by that time would have been within 3 minutes of the impact over one of the most sensitive airspaces in the US.

    As for whether the PA plane was shot down, I can see both sides of the story and it no doubt will make for one of those endless debates up there with "did Oswald act and fire alone" (I for one believe he clearly didn&#39;t). But, it happened so fast and was so overshadowed by the rest of the day&#39;s events... maybe the commanding officer doesn&#39;t even tell Bush to preserve "plausible deniability", but that&#39;s probably too far-fetched.

  12. #12
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    11,692
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Jet Set Junta[/i]@Oct 13 2003, 03:24 PM
    [b] I also have never had a problem with any of Bush&#39;s actions that day other than the weird thing about not leaving the classroom he was teaching kids in; it&#39;s not that I believe there was any conspiracy or cover-up or advance knowledge etc., just that it was &#39;odd&#39; to say the least.

    But to me, even bigger than the mystery of the PA plane was the one that hit the pentagon. Wasn&#39;t that thing in the air for barely 12 minutes? That&#39;s a hell of a short time to arrange a hijacking, successfully take out a cockpit, and crash a plane. Forget a military plane having time to react, which by that time would have been within 3 minutes of the impact over one of the most sensitive airspaces in the US.

    As for whether the PA plane was shot down, I can see both sides of the story and it no doubt will make for one of those endless debates up there with "did Oswald act and fire alone" (I for one believe he clearly didn&#39;t). But, it happened so fast and was so overshadowed by the rest of the day&#39;s events... maybe the commanding officer doesn&#39;t even tell Bush to preserve "plausible deniability", but that&#39;s probably too far-fetched. [/b][/quote]
    There is no way in HELL Oswald acted alone and no way in hell he makes that shot. With a pump-action firearm, with a target moving AWAY and we&#39;re supposed to believe he gets off a kill shot with his third try in about seven seconds, all rushed and sh*t??

    Oliver Stone may be a j*ackass, but his movie at least captured what my biggest problem was with the lone gunman theory.... Russian and German WWII snipers would struggle with that shot in that time frame and everyone knows you shoot at a target that moves towards you, not away, if it has to be moving at all.

    The government (cover up) and whoever was behind that hit (that&#39;s what it was) did not account for the Zapruder film getting out and giving forensic and ballistic experts chances to refute that fairy tale about Oswald. Oswald acted like an innocent man after he was captured and even SAID he was a patsy - then he&#39;s offed?&#33;? I suppose the guy who offed him just LOVED JFK, right? Riiiight....

    Yeah - he acted alone my a&#036;&#036;....

    I don&#39;t know who killed JFK and don&#39;t know if we&#39;ll ever know, but it wasn&#39;t Oswald himself, that&#39;s for sure.

  13. #13
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Kingston, NY
    Posts
    3,975
    Post Thanks / Like
    5-ever...you&#39;ve got to read Gerald Posner&#39;s book "Case Closed". In this outstanding book he methodically proves in painstaking detail that Oswald indeed acted alone in the assasination of the beloved President Kennedy.

    As history has shown the Federal Government leaks like a sieve, a secret of this nature would have been spilled long ago.

    BTW... a close examination of the Zapruder film actually proves that the only shots fired that day came from the book depository.

  14. #14
    All League
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Middletown Md
    Posts
    673
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Jet Set Junta[/i]@Oct 13 2003, 04:24 PM
    [b]
    But to me, even bigger than the mystery of the PA plane was the one that hit the pentagon. Wasn&#39;t that thing in the air for barely 12 minutes? That&#39;s a hell of a short time to arrange a hijacking, successfully take out a cockpit, and crash a plane. Forget a military plane having time to react, which by that time would have been within 3 minutes of the impact over one of the most sensitive airspaces in the US.

    [/b][/quote]
    That plane that hit the pentagon departed Dulles airport in Virginia and traveled to apprx 40 miles east of Henderson Ky, about 200 miles or so { if I was at work I could be exact } before it turned around and headed back east, I&#39;d say that plane was in the air for a little over an hour if you consider it flew around 7 to 8 miles a minute once it got up to it&#39;s cruising altitude which I believe was 35,000 feet.

  15. #15
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    11,692
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by tailgators[/i]@Oct 13 2003, 05:19 PM
    [b] 5-ever...you&#39;ve got to read Gerald Posner&#39;s book "Case Closed". In this outstanding book he methodically proves in painstaking detail that Oswald indeed acted alone in the assasination of the beloved President Kennedy.

    As history has shown the Federal Government leaks like a sieve, a secret of this nature would have been spilled long ago.

    BTW... a close examination of the Zapruder film actually proves that the only shots fired that day came from the book depository. [/b][/quote]
    I appreciate your comment, but I respectfully disagree.

    I have read that book, although it was a while ago. It [i]proves [/i]nothing and certainly doesn&#39;t prove that the kill shot came from the book depository.

  16. #16
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Kingston, NY
    Posts
    3,975
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by jets5ever[/i]@Oct 14 2003, 08:33 AM
    [b] I have read that book, although it was a while ago. It [i]proves [/i]nothing and certainly doesn&#39;t prove that the kill shot came from the book depository. [/b][/quote]
    Are you sure you read this book?
    [img]http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1400034620.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg[/img]

    Because in it Gerald Posner absolutely proved that the only shots fired that terrible day were from the book depository.

  17. #17
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    11,692
    Post Thanks / Like
    Tail -

    Have YOU read this book?

    [b]Case Open; The Omissions, Distortions, and Falsifications of Case Closed[/b]
    Author Publisher Year #Pages Notes Index Extras
    Harold Weisberg Carroll and Graf 1994 178

    I have read it. I have also read Posner&#39;s book. I do not believe Oswald was a lone gunman. Posner spends too much time on Oswald the man. Here is one example of Posner&#39;s inconsistency, contained in a review of Weisnberg&#39;s book:


    [i]Harold Weisberg was among the first critics of the Warren Commission and began self publishing a series of books entitled "Whitewash" in 1965. Since then he has filed many Freedom of Information requests for documents about the assassination, Oswald, and the cover-up. When Gerald Posner began to write "Case Closed" he asked for and received permission from Mr. Weisberg to access his files.
    When "Case Closed" was published Mr. Weisberg was shocked to learn that instead of being a fresh look at the case it seemed a very one sided "prosecutor&#39;s brief" against Lee Oswald. Mr. Weisberg found many "omissions, distortions, and falsifications" in "Case Closed".

    One of the main points Mr. Weisberg brings out is that in "Case Closed" Mr. Posner sites a computer analysis of the assassination done by Failure Analysis Associates, Inc. that shows the Kennedy could have been shot from the rear and implies this analysis was commissioned for his book. In fact a computer simulation had been done showing shots coming from the back, and another one done showing the shots coming from the grassy knoll. FAA Inc. had done both simulations for the American Bar Association as a demonstration of how computer modeling could be used to present evidence in a trial. The models were used by the ABA in a mock trial before Mr. Posner wrote his book. Mr. Posner not only implied the simulation was original but conveniently left out the fact that the same company and done a similar simulation showing the shots could have come from the front.

    Recommendation:
    When "Case Closed" came out many national publications rushed to praise it. "Case Open" probably never received a mention. If you are interested in reading about the MANY problems with Case Closed this is the book for you. [/i]

  18. #18
    All League
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    851
    Post Thanks / Like
    I love it, 5ever and tailgators swapping their "Conspiracy&#33;" and "Business as usual&#33;" hats. Just goes to show how relative history can be.

    I flipped through Posners book a long time ago when it came through the store, and wasn&#39;t convinced. I also saw some documentaries where he was interviewed going through his main arguments. The Warren Commission Report is still the weakest link in the "It was all Oswald" theory. Magic bullets and all.

    MARYLAND JET, I apologize sincerely for misrepresenting history w/ my plane thing. I haven&#39;t done enough detailed research of that day, and vaguely remembered the news media saying the Dulles plane turned quickly to hit the Pentagon. The hour of flight time does indeed make a lot more sense. Do any of the main gov&#39;t agencies have definitive reports of each flight pattern at their websites, out of curiosity?

  19. #19
    All League
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Middletown Md
    Posts
    673
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Jet Set Junta[/i]@Oct 14 2003, 12:37 PM
    [b] MARYLAND JET, I apologize sincerely for misrepresenting history w/ my plane thing. I haven&#39;t done enough detailed research of that day, and vaguely remembered the news media saying the Dulles plane turned quickly to hit the Pentagon. The hour of flight time does indeed make a lot more sense. Do any of the main gov&#39;t agencies have definitive reports of each flight pattern at their websites, out of curiosity? [/b][/quote]
    You have nothing to apologize for.....So you thought the plane was in the air for less time than it actually was.....no big deal &#33;.....You&#39;re recollection that you thought you heard it on the news is probably accurate, they were tossing out alot of theories with few { if any } facts to support them at that time trying to be the first with new information, I find it likely that one or more of them would toss out bad info on the flight time of the plane that hit the pentagon.

    What do you mean about " definitive reports of each flight pattern ", do you mean the actual route of flight that the 4 planes took on 9/11, if that&#39;s what you mean I don&#39;t know anywhere to look for those flights specifically, that doesn&#39;t mean they aren&#39;t out there somewhere, just that I personally don&#39;t know where they would be.

  20. #20
    Jets Insider VIP
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Charter JI Member

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Posts
    31,407
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by jets5ever[/i]@Oct 10 2003, 03:45 PM
    [b] I mean no disrespect to anyone if they lost a loved one on that plane. But I think and have thought for a while that the government shot that plane out of the air. I further think that the Hero story was either invented or exaggerated.

    There have been very few public details released about the forensic evidence and I have heard that several witnesses have said that they saw the plane explode in the air and that there may not have been a crash scene that was consistent with the type of impact from a 100% intact plane. I.e. - parts of the plane that were simply too far apart to have been attached up until impact, etc.

    Does anyone else think so?

    I should stipulate that I think the government would have been perfectly in the right to have shot this plane down, and further, I think the public would have understood. However, if true, I also can understand why they would squash this story. This is one of those things that is beyong two-party politics, IMO. I think that the USA would do this regardless of who was President and would also cover it up.

    In fact, I kind of hope they did shoot it down. It saved lives and this story, even if false, had a good effect.

    The black box, to my knowledge, was never recovered or at least, never declassified? The only "evidence" about a passenger revolt was a few cell phones calls about "let&#39;s roll" etc? Flimsy, IMO.


    Am I crazy? I usually hate conspiracy theories....am I missing some evidence, was the black box made public?? [/b][/quote]
    You&#39;ve been watching to many Oliver Stone flix...

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Follow Us