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Thread: Yes...President Bush was wrong to go into Iraq....

  1. #1
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    Continued UN inspections would've stopped this sort of torture...the kind liberals turned a blind eye to. Link is to the [b]C[/b]ommie [b]N[/b]ews [b]N[/b]etwork story:

    Gruesome videotape allegedly shows brutal Fedayeen Saddam punishment
    Thursday, October 30, 2003 Posted: 8:05 PM EST (0105 GMT)


    WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A gruesome videotape found in April by U.S. troops in Iraq allegedly shows the brutal punishment administered by the Fedayeen Saddam to enforce discipline under the regime of Saddam Hussein.

    The tape was recovered by the 308th Civil Affairs Brigade from a building near the Al Saadoan Police station on April 22, according to Pentagon sources.

    The tape was not released by the Pentagon, but was obtained by CNN from independent sources. It could not be determined when the tape was made.

    An analysis by the U.S. military concludes the victims on the tape appear to be members of the Fedayeen Saddam who have been accused of crimes ranging from desertion to disobeying orders.

    The Fedayeen, which at one point numbered between 18,000 and 40,000 troops, were young soldiers recruited from regions loyal to former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, according to globalsecurity.org, a nonpartisan international policy research group. The unit reported directly to the Presidential Palace, rather than through the army command, and were responsible for patrol and anti-smuggling duties. It was a politically reliable force that could be counted on to support Saddam against domestic opponents.

    Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said he's seen the tape, and it is typical of the brutality of the former Iraqi regime.

    "There are a lot of them around," Rumsfeld said, referring to tapes of brutal punishment, "and they portray a regime that was about as vicious as any regime could conceivably be."

    On the tape, what appear to be Fedayeen Saddam members and Republican Guard troops are shown administering cruel punishments, including chopping off fingers, cutting off tongues, breaking a wrist with a heavy stick, and throwing people off a multi-story building.

    Also depicted is a beheading by sword, which takes several attempts to complete.

    "When you have people filming in front of crowds cheering and clapping, you have people cutting off people's tongues and cutting off people's heads and chopping off their fingers and chopping off their hands, throwing them off three-story buildings, you learn something about a group of people and how they lived their lives and how they treated their people," Rumsfeld said at a Pentagon briefing.

    [url=http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/10/30/sprj.irq.torture.tape/index.html]http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/10/30/...tape/index.html[/url]

    BTW: and for all the deaf idiots out there who first said, "no blood for oil" and are now screaming, "where are the WMD" the President was straight forward all along about the main objective of this mission: [b]Regime Change in Iraq!![/b]

  2. #2
    [b]hey guess what there are atrocities occuring all over the world but the US doesn't give a s**t about any of that. [/b]

    pakistan is a military dictatorship, just like Iraq was and they are our biggest "allies" in the war against terror. There is some bad s**t going down there but no one ever talks about that. We don't care.

    Saudi Arabia is a place where 10 select people control the entire wealth of the nation, and the rest of people have no hope, no food, no chance. We don't care.

    the entire african continent is a collection of massacres and AIDS. We don't care.

    Playing the morality card with IRAQ is hypocritical.

    Its like saying its wrong that Bill Clinton lied about a blowjob but its ok that Arnold molested dozens of women.

    the right needs to pick a morality and stick to it, not trot out stories that fit its agenda when its convenient and ignore the stories that don't.

    frankly for my money id rather see the US improving the life of AMERICANS not raghead IRAQI's who think they are living in 2000 BC still - maybe that's just me.

    or at least be honest about it. If this thing was called OPERATION SECURE OIL id have less of a problem with it. at least it makes sense that way. but you can't send boys to die in the name of oil. It has to be marketed. There hasn't been a legitimate military action since WWII. Everything since then has been agenda driven, unneccesary bull****. This whole preemptive strike --> establishing democracy is laughable. it defies all logic, more than that hasn't ever worked. Id rather see them glass the joint then "establish democracy."

    you can't just establish democracy in a nation lacking infrastructure, economy, employment sources etc. Not in 1 year or in 10. Maybe in a generation or two but who has time or energy for that?

    Iraq will be nothing but an economy bolstered by government subsitidies for as long as we will be there. Period.

    Was Saddam an a**hole? Yes. Are the IRAQI people better without him? YES.

    Is the fate of the Iraqi people our problem? NO.

    If there wasn't oil in Iraq we wouldn't care if Saddam skinned its people alive and ate them for dinner. Thats a fact jack.

    its all academic anyway. No matter who the next president is this country is committed to Iraq for decades. The horses have been let out of the barn.

    Come to NY you want to believe some heartwarming stories to make you feel good about it? Hey that's great good luck with that. I have enough self-delusion in my life just hoping that the JETS will win every sunday.

  3. #3
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@Oct 31 2003, 11:01 AM
    [b] Its like saying its wrong that Bill Clinton lied about a blowjob but its ok that Arnold molested dozens of women.
    [/b][/quote]
    So you do nothing in Iraq because dictators are torturing people around the world. That is a brilliant solution to a problem.

    [i]People are starving all over the world too, so since we can't feed 'em all, let those we can help starve. Crimes get committed everyday, but since we can't catch all the felons, let's not pursue anyone.[/i]

    And just to clarify your other brilliant point: Bill Clinton lied [u]under oath in a court of law[/u]. Arnold admitted and appologized for his indiscretions. Both wrong, one illegal. And the (mostly Democratic) Calfornians knew all the facts before election day and still overwhelmingly voted for Arnold.

    By the way: Whanita Broderick accused Clinton of rape (not just a boob squeeze).

  4. #4
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Spirit of Weeb[/i]@Oct 31 2003, 11:25 AM
    [b] So you do nothing in Iraq because dictators are torturing people around the world. That is a brilliant solution to a problem.
    [/b][/quote]
    Weeb thats right i'd do nothing in Iraq. Screw em. who's problem is it exactly? I would contend that its not ours.

    The lives of every single IRAQI isn't to me worth the life of 1 single US serviceman.

    --

    RE: Bill vs Arnold im not talking about right and wrong or what happened -

    im talking about the attitudes of conservatives to one of their own. Cause Arnold is a Republican he gets a moral hall pass. Its ok cause he aplogized? Cause Bill is a Democrat he gets nailed to the wall and is the subject of endless indignation.

    Shades of similarity to the Rush Limbaugh situation. The guy is jacked up on enough hillbilly heroin to kill a horse but he needs HELP and SUPPORT. But an unknown guy caught with a couple grams of weed should get sent up the river and the key thrown away.

    Morality in its very nature is not individually flexible. They are absolute standards of behavior that should be applied to all people equally. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. If Bill is a womanizing scumbag then so is Arnold case closed.

    PS - if we are discussing who did what - Bill Clinton never disclosed detailed interview accounts of back room gangbangs. :blink:

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@Oct 31 2003, 12:25 PM
    [b] Shades of similarity to the Rush Limbaugh situation. The guy is jacked up on enough hillbilly heroin to kill a horse but he needs HELP and SUPPORT. But an unknown guy caught with a couple grams of weed should get sent up the river and the key thrown away.

    [/b][/quote]
    To make matters worse, considering the quantity of drugs Rush had its even possible that he was trafficking.

    Lest we forget that there is still an ongoing criminal investigation into this matter.

  6. #6
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@Oct 31 2003, 12:25 PM
    [b] Weeb thats right i'd do nothing in Iraq. Screw em. who's problem is it exactly? I would contend that its not ours.

    The lives of every single IRAQI isn't to me worth the life of 1 single US serviceman.

    --

    RE: Bill vs Arnold im not talking about right and wrong or what happened -

    im talking about the attitudes of conservatives to one of their own. Cause Arnold is a Republican he gets a moral hall pass. Its ok cause he aplogized? Cause Bill is a Democrat he gets nailed to the wall and is the subject of endless indignation.

    Shades of similarity to the Rush Limbaugh situation. The guy is jacked up on enough hillbilly heroin to kill a horse but he needs HELP and SUPPORT. But an unknown guy caught with a couple grams of weed should get sent up the river and the key thrown away.

    Morality in its very nature is not individually flexible. They are absolute standards of behavior that should be applied to all people equally. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. If Bill is a womanizing scumbag then so is Arnold case closed.

    PS - if we are discussing who did what - Bill Clinton never disclosed detailed interview accounts of back room gangbangs. :blink: [/b][/quote]
    Looking at the small picture, one thousand Iraqi lives aren't equal to one American. That's your problem: you guys only see a window of what you want to see. Expand your horizons and think about the big picture for once, and maybe you'll understand.

    I didn't vote or support Arnold. I would have rather McClintock won. Californians ignored his indiscretions and voted him in. And Bill Clinton lied about everything, including [u]forcible rape[/u] which your side seems to convieniently forget. If you feel so strongly about it, never pay to see his movies, don't support the sponsors of his TV movies and don't eat or drink at Planet Hollywood.

    If you want to make a list of the politicos and the skeletons in the closet, I guarantee that the Democrats are far superior in that category than their Republican rivals. The Dems have congressmen running gay prostitution rings from their basement, a (drunken) senator that drowned a young woman in his car and a former klansman on the payroll -- THIS VERY MINUTE!

    As far as Limbaugh, I've been very clear and consistant. If the guy did something illegal (proven in a court of law and not the NY Times Editorial Page) he's got to pay the penalty (treatment, fines, jail, whatever the law says).

    It's the left that will overlook Jesse Jacksons indiscretions and illegalities, yet try to crucify Jim Baker. Both should be canned. But they aren't - are they?

  7. #7
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@Oct 31 2003, 12:25 PM
    [b] im talking about the attitudes of conservatives to one of their own. Cause Arnold is a Republican he gets a moral hall pass. Its ok cause he aplogized? Cause Bill is a Democrat he gets nailed to the wall and is the subject of endless indignation.

    Shades of similarity to the Rush Limbaugh situation. The guy is jacked up on enough hillbilly heroin to kill a horse but he needs HELP and SUPPORT. But an unknown guy caught with a couple grams of weed should get sent up the river and the key thrown away.

    Morality in its very nature is not individually flexible. They are absolute standards of behavior that should be applied to all people equally. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. If Bill is a womanizing scumbag then so is Arnold case closed.

    PS - if we are discussing who did what - Bill Clinton never disclosed detailed interview accounts of back room gangbangs. :blink: [/b][/quote]
    Well, to me there is quite a difference between an actor / bodybuilder admitting he had done some reprehensible things and apologizing and a sitting president getting blown by an intern and then lying to the american people and more importantly under oath about it, what sickened me most about it was he was more than willing to try to ruin her by calling her a liar and having his people trash her until she produced the dress, then all of a sudden he got repentant, he always has and always will disgust me.

    That said, I still think you are correct pointing out the hypocricy of alot of conservatives, either you are principled or your not and apparantly some conservatives are just selectively principled which to me is sad, if I'd been out there I would've voted for McClintock and if Bustamonte won by one vote I'd have been fine with that, actually, I'd have blamed Arnold if Bustamonte won cause if he just wouldn't have entered then we could've had a principled republican candidate win.

    As for the Limbaugh situation this obviously doesn't put him a good light and he does have questions to answer, but, what happened to him could happen to anybody, It's pretty clear Rush didn't intentionally get himself hooked on Oxycotton and the like, it's something that happened to him and once hooked he was powerless to stop, I think that's the difference between Rush and a guy with a couple of grams of weed, the guy with the weed intentionally sought out an illegal drug for pleasure while Limbaugh unintentionally got hooked on the narcotic, heck, he tried twice to detox unsuccessfully, that to me indicates he was not in control of his situation.

    As for us being in Iraq and republicans using the torture tapes of the Saddam regime to justify our presence there all I can say is I'm glad such a sick regime was ousted and it's an extra added benefit to us being over there but it was never the reason we went and never should have been, there are brutal dictators all over the world and there's nothing the U.S.A can or should do about it, I wish it were different, I wish we had the resources to fight every brutal regime and make the world better but we don't, maybe that would be something the U.N could look into but they've got more important things to worry about like whose sitting next to whom at the next black tie gala so they won't be able to fit inconveinances like brutal dictatorships into the schedule in the foreseeable future.

  8. #8
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@Oct 31 2003, 11:01 AM
    [b] [b]hey guess what there are atrocities occuring all over the world but the US doesn't give a s**t about any of that. [/b]

    pakistan is a military dictatorship, just like Iraq was and they are our biggest "allies" in the war against terror. There is some bad s**t going down there but no one ever talks about that. We don't care.

    Saudi Arabia is a place where 10 select people control the entire wealth of the nation, and the rest of people have no hope, no food, no chance. We don't care.

    the entire african continent is a collection of massacres and AIDS. We don't care.

    Playing the morality card with IRAQ is hypocritical.

    Its like saying its wrong that Bill Clinton lied about a blowjob but its ok that Arnold molested dozens of women.

    the right needs to pick a morality and stick to it, not trot out stories that fit its agenda when its convenient and ignore the stories that don't.

    frankly for my money id rather see the US improving the life of AMERICANS not raghead IRAQI's who think they are living in 2000 BC still - maybe that's just me.

    or at least be honest about it. If this thing was called OPERATION SECURE OIL id have less of a problem with it. at least it makes sense that way. but you can't send boys to die in the name of oil. It has to be marketed. There hasn't been a legitimate military action since WWII. Everything since then has been agenda driven, unneccesary bull****. This whole preemptive strike --> establishing democracy is laughable. it defies all logic, more than that hasn't ever worked. Id rather see them glass the joint then "establish democracy."

    you can't just establish democracy in a nation lacking infrastructure, economy, employment sources etc. Not in 1 year or in 10. Maybe in a generation or two but who has time or energy for that?

    Iraq will be nothing but an economy bolstered by government subsitidies for as long as we will be there. Period.

    Was Saddam an a**hole? Yes. Are the IRAQI people better without him? YES.

    Is the fate of the Iraqi people our problem? NO.

    If there wasn't oil in Iraq we wouldn't care if Saddam skinned its people alive and ate them for dinner. Thats a fact jack.

    its all academic anyway. No matter who the next president is this country is committed to Iraq for decades. The horses have been let out of the barn.

    Come to NY you want to believe some heartwarming stories to make you feel good about it? Hey that's great good luck with that. I have enough self-delusion in my life just hoping that the JETS will win every sunday. [/b][/quote]
    There is so much idiocy in this post I'd miss the Jets game Sunday going over it line-by-line but here's the best:

    [b][i]Its like saying its wrong that Bill Clinton lied about a blowjob but its ok that Arnold molested dozens of women. [/i][/b]

    Arnold's sexual indiscretions suddenly popped up the weeks prior to the recall election, and the media source that fabricated much of the information, the LA Times, is paying a heavy price as there have been subscription cancellations by the thousands....blowjob bill clinton's sexual misdeeds is a trail miles long that started somewhere back in Arkansas. How many women have sued Arnold for his "molestations"?... now how many have sued blowjob bill?...Arnold did learn from blowjob bill though; instead of getting in front of a nation and lying Arnold immediately apologized [/i]if[I] he had misbehaved (which I'm sure he did, but with fine looking chicks, not the fat ass, big nosed fugly's blowjob bill seems to like!)

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