Enjoy an Ads-Free Jets Insider - Become a Jets Insider VIP!
Results 1 to 16 of 16

Thread: Hey Jet Set....

  1. #1
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    11,692
    Post Thanks / Like
    [url=http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/West/12/02/prosecuting.polygamy.ap/index.html]http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/West/12/02/pros...y.ap/index.html[/url]

    The slope isn't that slippery after all, huh? Like I said - at some point marriage has to be defined and no matter how it is defined, it can be construed as exclusionary to some people. I think, then, that a proper "default" setting would to define as it ALWAYS has been defined, throughout thousands of years and among hundreds of different cultures, as a union between a man and a woman.

    Anyway - you wanted me to tell you when the polygamists would clamor for the same "civil rights" as the rest, so here you are. Sure, this guy seems like a whack-job and most likely will not win and probably is a pedophile. But this ruling, coupled with a move towards allowing gay marriage, will open the floodgates. Transgender bisexuals are not far behind, trust me. :lol: :D ;)

    In terms of civil rights and discrimination - I find that argument rather specious. If you can name a single gay man who is not allowed to marry any woman he chooses (like I am) than I will agree. Similarly, I, like gay men, am not allowed to marry another guy. Seems to me that there is no discrimination there - neither straight nor gay men can marry men. ;) (Funny - yes, but I do think the "discrimination!" shriek is over-used and is in this case...especially by liberal people who consider this a violation of civil rights, but aborting a second-trimester, living child a "choice." The hypocrisy is stunning.)

    Seriously, though, if any two consenting adults can marry and get recognition from the government, why even attach any romantic significance at all to the union? My brother just graduated college and can't find work or health coverage. His platonic buddy is working and has coverage. Why can't they just marry so my brother gets coverage, his buddy gets a tax break and they can just get a quickie no fault "divorce" afterwards, when my brother finds work...especially since there is no social stigma attached to divorce these days. Why can't that happen? Why can't I marry two people? Why can't I marry 8 people? Who gets the kids after these larger unions dissolve?

    Look, I know you probably don't want to get in to the whole debate again, but there are more things that contribute to this issue than simply "civil rights" of gay people. This isn't even taking into account the obvious biological aspects of child-rearing, although, with cloning and gen-enging, pretty soon it will be likely that two men and two women will be able to have an offspring, with assistence.

    I also have questions - if being gay is 100% pre-determined and biological, is being bi-sexual 100% pre-determined and biological too? What about being transgender? ALL of that stuff is 100% pre-determined??

    If someone is bisexual, are they ALWAYS bisexual, or do they start out gay and then become straight, or do they start out thinking they are straight, then realize they are gay, but don't want to totally give up being straight? I don't know. I have two gay friends who get annoyed that bisexuals and transgender people are coupled in with their "lobby" since they feel like they are freaks. (Yes, these buddies know my feelings about marriage - they don't even want marriage.)

    I have no doubt that gay people honestly feel that they have no choice in who they are attracted to. But the science and biology of "gayness" is far from conclusive and personally, I feel that a combination of nature and nurture are the cause. You can call me ignorant all you want, but the studies are very inconclusive at this point and there is an overwhelming need for people to disbelieve in the "nurture" aspect, for PC and "discrimination!!!" reasons - simply, unless you believe it is 100% biological you are a bigot. That's a great way to start a scientific investigation. It reminds me of a British author who wrote a book on supposedly "moderate" Islam and how it had violent and anti-semitic tendencies. He has recieved death threats and been stalked by Angry Muslims. His quote was funny, "If you don't write that Islam is peaceful, they'll kill you."

  2. #2
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Kingston, NY
    Posts
    3,975
    Post Thanks / Like
    Why are modern day conservatives so overly interested in how other people want to live their lives? What ever happened to minding your own business?

    My religion teaches me and I accept that the sacrament of marriage is reserved only for a man and a woman, but I recognize that other people have different values.

    Therefore, I have no problem if the civil government grants civil marriage permits to same sex couples. Afterall as Americans aren't they entitled to their own pursuit of happiness?

  3. #3
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    2,393
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by tailgators[/i]@Dec 3 2003, 10:27 AM
    [b] Why are modern day conservatives so overly interested in how other people want to live their lives. What ever happened to minding your own business? [/b][/quote]
    Oh, you mean like driving an SUV, attaining wealth, flying a flag (whether American or conferate), smoking a cigarette, owning a gun, eating fast food, keeping our communities safe by keeping convicted felons and child molesters in jail where they belong, allowing our [b]own[/b] kids to pray in their schools (not forcing others to do so), choosing which school to send our kids and tax money to...

  4. #4
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    11,692
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by tailgators[/i]@Dec 3 2003, 09:27 AM
    [b] Why are modern day conservatives so overly interested in how other people want to live their lives? What ever happened to minding your own business?

    My religion teaches me and I accept that the sacrament of marriage is reserved only for a man and a woman, but I recognize that other people have different values.

    Therefore, I have no problem if the civil government grants civil marriage permits to same sex couples. Afterall as Americans aren't they entitled to their own pursuit of happiness? [/b][/quote]
    True, they are entitled to a pursuit of happiness, but those pursuits have limits.

    What if my pursuit of happiness entails group marriage, sex with a 15-year old, sex with a dog, engaging in prostitution, gambling, drug use, yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater, slandering people because I am racist against them, etc. How do any of these things affect you? Well, they are still illegal. The government has been legislating morality for a long time. Take a look at divorce cases - if one spouse commits adultery, they would be the ones blamed for dissovling the union and would generally lose the house, etc. That is the government being "interested in how people live their lives."

    I don't think stoning women for being seen in public with a man who is not their spouse is cool, but hey, different people have different values, so the Taliban was cool. I don't think a father should murder his daughter if she has been raped, cause I don't consider a rape victim a whore, but hey, I recognize that other people have different values.

    These are extreme exmaples, but Tail - are you down with group marriages, incestuous relationships, etc? Why can't I marry my cousin if it would make me happy?

    At some point, a line has to be drawn. Draw it at hetero or gay sex, and you STILL discriminate, by (liberal) definition. So, I think that ALL OF RECORDED HISTORY and the simple natural, biological order of child bearing is a good place to draw it, since it has already been drawn that way forever.

    Dick Gephardt actually used the phrase "non same-sex marriage" in a debate last week. I mean, it is just crazyness....

  5. #5
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Kingston, NY
    Posts
    3,975
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Spirit of Weeb+Dec 3 2003, 10:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (Spirit of Weeb @ Dec 3 2003, 10:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--tailgators[/i]@Dec 3 2003, 10:27 AM
    [b] Why are modern day conservatives so overly interested in how other people want to live their lives. What ever happened to minding your own business? [/b][/quote]
    Oh, you mean like driving an SUV, attaining wealth, flying a flag (whether American or conferate), smoking a cigarette, owning a gun, eating fast food, keeping our communities safe by keeping convicted felons and child molesters in jail where they belong, allowing our [b]own[/b] kids to pray in their schools (not forcing others to do so), choosing which school to send our kids and tax money to... [/b][/quote]
    Weeb, last time I checked you&#39;re free to do all of things that you listed.

    Drive an SUV? Go ahead knock yourself out&#33;

    Attain wealth? I do that every day, quite well I might add.

    Fly the Flag? It&#39;s a great thing to do&#33;&#33;

    Fly a Confederate Flag? Go ahead, bad taste runs rampant in America.

    Smoke a cigarette? Smoking causes cancer, so I hope you smoke a pack a day. Just as long as I don&#39;t have to smell your foul smoke.

    Own a Gun? Go ahead no one is stopping you. In your case it would work quicker than smoking.

    Eat Fast Food? Well someone is eating it, because there&#39;s a McDonald&#39;s Wendy&#39;s or Burger King on every corner.

    Keep convicted felons in prison. Well as long as they&#39;ve "paid there debt to society" they ought to resume a normal life. However, I&#39;m all for making that "debt" a lot higher in many cases than it is today.

    School Prayer? Children pray in school every day. If there wasn&#39;t prayer in school I never would have passed trigonometry. If you mean organized prayer in public schools well I&#39;m against that. Why? Well its that old seperation of church and state concept that&#39;s served our nation so well for over 200 years.

    Choose where you spend your school tax dollars? You did that when you bought your house. Good schools add value to real estate, I&#39;m sure jetman or brenda could fill you in on that.

  6. #6
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    11,692
    Post Thanks / Like
    Where does the phrase "separation of church and state" appear in the Constitution, which part?

  7. #7
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Kingston, NY
    Posts
    3,975
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by jets5ever[/i]@Dec 3 2003, 11:07 AM
    [b] Where does the phrase "separation of church and state" appear in the Constitution, which part? [/b][/quote]
    I said concept. I didn&#39;t claim it was in the constitution.

  8. #8
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    11,692
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by tailgators+Dec 3 2003, 10:11 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (tailgators @ Dec 3 2003, 10:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--jets5ever[/i]@Dec 3 2003, 11:07 AM
    [b] Where does the phrase "separation of church and state" appear in the Constitution, which part? [/b][/quote]
    I said concept. I didn&#39;t claim it was in the constitution. [/b][/quote]
    True - I was being picky. But I think that &#39;concept&#39; as currently implemented is nowhere near what was actually intended by the framers. I think we have agreed on this in the past, no?

  9. #9
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    2,393
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by tailgators[/i]@Dec 3 2003, 11:03 AM
    [b] Weeb, last time I checked you&#39;re free to do all of things that you listed.
    [/b][/quote]
    Yeah, and its the modern liberal trying his damnest stop them&#33;

  10. #10
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Kingston, NY
    Posts
    3,975
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Spirit of Weeb+Dec 3 2003, 12:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (Spirit of Weeb @ Dec 3 2003, 12:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--tailgators[/i]@Dec 3 2003, 11:03 AM
    [b] Weeb, last time I checked you&#39;re free to do all of things that you listed.
    [/b][/quote]
    Yeah, and its the modern liberal trying his damnest stop them&#33; [/b][/quote]
    Ridiculous.

    You just reminded me of why I&#39;ve scaled back on posting here.

  11. #11
    All League
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    851
    Post Thanks / Like
    I hadn&#39;t been coming to this section of the board as much lately, so I totally missed this thread.

    First off, Weeb, no matter how many ridiculous caricatures you want to paint of the left as the true "deprivers of freedom", it doesn&#39;t even come close to what the far right would like to implement in this country. As I&#39;ve said 100 times before, I wish fiscal conservatism -- a noble ideal I can support in many cases -- wasn&#39;t so tied to religious fear-mongering and authoritarianism, but thanks to the two-party system it often is. Come and talk to me when anyone has actually succeeded in banning tobacco, outlawing sale of SUVs, and congregating in churches. Until then, your comparisons of any of these to gay marriage are classic smokescreens and pretty intelligence-insulting when you consider which ones are truly "illegal" in the current climate.

    Just as a case in point that is all too common in this country, I am NOT free to buy a bottle of wine on a Sunday in the state of New York, which is often lampooned as a stranglehold of evil beaurocratic liberalism. Who can I thank for this? The religious right and their harkening back to 17th century blue laws. Guess who&#39;s fighting a measure in the State congress to end this ludicrous restriction? The far-right Republicans.

    Back to 5ever&#39;s threadstarter, I can turn the same question on you -- is the gender of the two parties the ONLY element of marriage? Because if it were, than polygamist marriages would be legal (so long as none of those wives are getting side action, wink wink), as would marriage between an 8 year old and a 60 year old. The gender is only one facet. The ideals of monogamy and consenting "of age" adults are two other things that make marriage what it is "traditionally".

    Nobody on ANY side of this issue would ever try to argue that gay marriage is "more" traditional than hetero marriage. And it probably never will be, which is why I laugh at people who claim that it is any real "threat" to a happy marriage between two staunch heterosexual "normal" people.

    But, gay marriage does satisfy 2 of the 3 facets I outlined, and I think those are important as well to defining a marriage that promotes "family values". The pediophiliac, group-foursome-orgie, and bestiality unions you continually cite don&#39;t even come THAT close. That fact, along with the statistic that there are a lot more monogamous gay couples who desire marriage in this country than there are sheep-****ers who want to tie the knot (sic), keeps it from being a slippery slope IMO.

    The same arguments you keep making with me here are the ones most extreme anti-gay-marriage people use against smoking pot, playing violent video games, and supporting women&#39;s rights. And yes, they are similar to lame arguments the far left makes against owning firearms and attaining wealth. I don&#39;t even believe that the slippery slope argument is invalid; each case is different and deserves its own analysis.

    But, as you said so yourself when starting this thread, this guy putting this case up is a nutjob who is obviously trying to cash in on the momentum from the Massachusetts case to push something about 20x as fringe and as gay marriage. It bothers me that so many people pretty much consider homosexuality and pedophilia interchangeable, as if they are both equally "evil" as far as Jesus is concerned and the argument ends there. Much as you cringe when anyone suggests fundamentalist Christians have things in common with Al-Queda (when this comparison to a blatant terrorist group is used, I agree it is wrong -- but I do think they have a lot more in common with non-terrorist fundamentalist Muslims than many in this country want to admit). In this thread, you basically equated homosexual marriage with shooting your daughter for being raped, which is extremely grotesque even by your typical devil&#39;s advocate standards. :rolleyes:

    We&#39;ve pretty much argued all other facets of this before, so no need to rehash. But I keep seeing a weird undercurrent to a lot of the more passionate anti-gay-marriage arguments that suggests that it&#39;s "encouraging" homosexuality. This has the logical converse that if we were subtly doing more to "discourage" homosexuality maybe it would just "go away" and never come back. While I acknowledge (and have met in real life living in Ithaca) people who are confused as to what their sexuality really is and waver once or twice in their lifetime, I don&#39;t think outlawing gay marriage does anything to "help straigthen out" these people. Anyone that fickle about sexuality in general probably would be fickle about choosing one life partner and thus would have an equal chance of being a miserable failure in a life-binding gay OR straight marriage.

    Remember, we&#39;re not arguing about the "freedom to f**k the same gender" here; that "freedom" has more or less been grated in most states that don&#39;t have sodomy laws. We&#39;re talking about the freedom to enter a monogamous union until death do you part and dare to call it "marriage". It goes back to my main question, which I still haven&#39;t seen answered satisfactoraly here: How does the legality of &#39;gay marriage&#39; affect anyone who isn&#39;t already gay, and REALLY committed to a lifetime of gay monogamy at that? If you know you&#39;re not gay, then you don&#39;t need or want this sort of marriage.

    And don&#39;t even get me started on people who think the potential of "Gay marriage" is one of the things causing the high divorce rate in this country, often the EXACT SAME PEOPLE who post with avatars of Coors Light models in g-strings and go to strip clubs regularly. I don&#39;t think either of those things is &#39;wrong&#39; or should be outlawed either, but I&#39;d easily wager this causes about 30 times as much marital failure in this country than people who are confused about their sexuality and left their marriage for a gay romance.

    Think about it: you find out your kid is gay, what would you rather have for them? A miserable heterosexual marriage they&#39;re coerced into that fails within 5 years, a lifetime of noncommital singlehood with any amount of dangerous sex, or a legally binding monogamous union with someone they feel really commited to? I know what answer I&#39;d choose in a heartbeat, personally. The only thing that would even give me a moment&#39;s pause would be their decision and ability to raise kids, and with technology (and hopefully tolerance) getting better in the future, even that could be a moot point down the road.

    Anyway, way too long-winded here, and I know we aren&#39;t going to change each other&#39;s opinions. The idea that "gay marriage" is even 1/1000th the threat to our society as poverty, terrorism, the failure of schools, the bankrupcy of local and state treasuries, and -- I&#39;ll spot you here -- even abortion, is just mind-boggling to me. And part of why I don&#39;t post on these threads as much these days ... :ph34r:

  12. #12
    Board Moderator
    Jets Insider VIP
    Charter JI Member

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    State Location Here
    Posts
    7,737
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Jet Set Junta[/i]@Dec 10 2003, 12:24 PM
    [b] Just as a case in point that is all too common in this country, I am NOT free to buy a bottle of wine on a Sunday in the state of New York, which is often lampooned as a stranglehold of evil beaurocratic liberalism. Who can I thank for this? The religious right and their harkening back to 17th century blue laws. Guess who&#39;s fighting a measure in the State congress to end this ludicrous restriction? The far-right Republicans.
    [/b][/quote]
    Liquor stores are open on Sundays in my New York.

  13. #13
    All League
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    851
    Post Thanks / Like
    It&#39;s in the process of being lifted in some areas, but they&#39;re still fighting for a weird "compromise" where the store has to be closed one other day of the week so it&#39;s still effectively only open 6 days of any given week.

    I did some research after you posted, and it looks like Southern New York is on the road to lifting the Sunday ban despite a veto by good ol&#39; Pataki.

    [url=http://www.discus.org/mediaroom/2003/release.asp?pressid=99]http://www.discus.org/mediaroom/2003/relea....asp?pressid=99[/url]
    [url=http://www.discus.org/mediaroom/2003/release.asp?pressid=90]http://www.discus.org/mediaroom/2003/relea....asp?pressid=90[/url]

    I think plain ol&#39; common sense and the idea of increased capitalism will eventually prevail, and from doing research it looks like Massachusetts is in the same boat right now. The idea that anyone in this day in age could be in favor of a Sunday ban is just ludicrous to me. It&#39;s always been legal to buy beer after noon on Sundays, and most Catholics up here drink wine with family gatherings and church functions on Sunday. I have yet to hear one good argument in favor of keeping the ban other than inertia and some fringe temperance or Protestant crusaders.

    Ah well, at least it&#39;s legal to mail order beer, wine, and spirits into New York from other states. And a good thing, too, since the liquor stores up here suck.

  14. #14
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    11,692
    Post Thanks / Like
    The owners of the "packys" here in Boston are the ones whining about lifting the ban&#33; Essentially, they are saying that Sunday sales will not help them move additional units, but rather it would merely spread six days&#39; worth of sales over seven days, and that they are going to lose money by having to pay staff members to run the stores on Sundays. Also - some weird provision in the MA law states that MA stores within 10 miles of the RI and NH borders (states that do sell on Sundays) are also allowed to be open on Sundays, and have been forever. So, naturally, these proprietors do not want to lose their competitive advantage.

    It&#39;s just nonsense. In Mass, Sunday sales have been allowed for years during the Holiday Season (from Thanksgiving through New Years) and then after that it went back to the Puritan blue laws. It just makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Thankfully, they seem to have gotten rid of the ridiculous law.

    You can&#39;t even bring a six-pack home "to go" from a bar in Mass on Sundays...so dumb. (But you are allowed to STAY at the bar, get stewed and then drive home, rather than get stewed at home and remain at home where you aren&#39;t a danger to anyone else&#33;)

    What about PA? Liquor and wine have to be sold in a separate location than beer (They call beer stores "distributors" in PA) and neither is open on Sunday. You can, however, go to a convenient mart and get a 12 pack on Sundays, but not more than a 12-pack per a single transaction. So kids just go in and out of these convenient stores a zillion times buying as many 12 packs as they want. Ludicrous.

    One of my brothers went to VA Tech. In Blacksburg, you can drive up to a friggin gas station at 11:00pm on a Sunday and buy a keg&#33;&#33;

  15. #15
    All League
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    851
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blacksburg, VA is home to one of the best beer mailorder places in the country: [url]www.vintagecellar.com[/url] ... I make this an annual stop now on my trek through to Charlotte NC to visit my brother at xmas. They also ship to NY State. Lots of great belgian stuff and West Coast regional/micro stuff I can&#39;t get locally.

    In googling that liquor store ban, I noticed PA is in fact lifting some Sunday sales as well. But they continue to only sell wine and spirits through the state-run stores, which is ludicrous. I think New Hampshire does this as well, and I know for a fact North Carolina does it and has them locked down on Sunday. But then Georgia and Florida sell wine at Supermarkets, go figure.

    For the record, Canada, home to all things evil and socialist by some peoples&#39; standards, has province-run stores with bad hours as well. Even though, as you said w/ Boston, you can go to a bar on any day of the week and be a potential death hammer to everyone in your path if you drive home trashed.

    I like this tack better; booze is so much more fun to talk about than the politics of gay marriage. :D

  16. #16
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    11,692
    Post Thanks / Like
    Beer rules. My buddies and I all watched that World Series of Poker stuff on ESPN and have taken a shine to playing Texas Hold &#39;em and drinking Harpoon once a week (mixed in with other things, among those who choose to partake ;) ) while we listen to Blue Note Jazz. We&#39;ve been doing it a ton recently. (We each put in like 20 or 25 bucks and play with quarters, fifties and dollar chips - short, short money)


    The problem with short-money poker is that you can&#39;t really tell how good anyone is, because bluffing and "pushing around" doesn&#39;t occur that much, so usually the best hand wins and everyone sees what that hand is. But it is still fun.

    I have a buddy who went to Fairfield, in CT. The liquor stores closed at 8pm&#33; It was brutal for them cause they would always have to know exactly how much beer they&#39;d need early on. If one keg kicked, they couldn&#39;t just get another one late at night like most normal college kids. So, inevitably, they&#39;d always run out at 9:00 or end up havnig two or three kegs and no one around (which isn&#39;t that bad of a problem&#33;)

    I am not the beer aficianado (sp?) you are Jet Set, although I do love beer and am open to trying new ones. I don&#39;t know much about making it, microbrews, etc. I usually drink Bud Light&#33; But my favorites are Yuengling Lager, St. Pauli Girl, Harp, McSorely&#39;s, Beck&#39;s and Pete&#39;s Wicked Ale. (I don&#39;t mind some Sarnac stuff, some of it is just too weird) I have to say that I can&#39;t STAND Sam Adam&#39;s and everyone blows that beer up here.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Follow Us