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Thread: The Cold War

  1. #1
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    Here we go lads:

    So far both teams have made significant moves and I think both sides will agree the Red Sox have made the better moves. However, the offseason has a long way to go and I predict some solid moves for the yanks. As a red Sox fan I wonder how Nomar will react longterm to all the A-Rod stuff (which now appears dead in the water), and I also wonder how disruptive the yankee clubhouse might get with the addition of Kevin Brown. I like him a lot and I'm not happy to see him in pinstripes. However, unless he can change his ways I don;t see him as being a good yankee fit.

  2. #2
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    Originally posted by ScottishJet@Dec 13 2003, 09:37 PM
    Here we go lads:

    So far both teams have made significant moves and I think both sides will agree the Red Sox have made the better moves.
    Ummmmm, I don't agree

    I agree that RSN and their Yankee hating media hacks see it that way, but I don't see it that way

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    Who is the more accomplished closer Foulke or Rivera? No question it is Mo. The guy has been lights out and is truly the best closer the game has seen. However, last year he wasn't the most dominant. He has had problems with injuries the last couple of years and that has dramaticaly affected the yankees. I see no coincidence in that with the yanks not winning World Series, i see it as being directly a factor. When Mo is on and is healthy, the yanks are very hard to beat. However, the last couple of years the yanks armour has been weakened due to Rivera's drop in performance. Last year Foulke was the #1 closer in the American League. There is no disputing that. So yeah, based on career totals Rivera is the best closer, and I don't see anyone coming close to him anytime soon. But you have to admit that Red Sox have signed a legitimate hammer to close games.

  4. #4
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    Originally posted by ScottishJet@Dec 13 2003, 09:37 PM
    I also wonder how disruptive the yankee clubhouse might get with the addition of Kevin Brown.
    I don't know ... you tell me ... you have more experience with this thing

    Will Manny be the cause of your undoing in 2004?

    Was he the reason you lost in extra innings of Game 7 in the 2003 ALCS?

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    Originally posted by Green Jets & Ham+Dec 13 2003, 10:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Green Jets & Ham @ Dec 13 2003, 10:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--ScottishJet@Dec 13 2003, 09:37 PM
    Here we go lads:

    So far both teams have made significant moves and I think both sides will agree the Red Sox have made the better moves.
    Ummmmm, I don&#39;t agree

    I agree that RSN and their Yankee hating media hacks see it that way, but I don&#39;t see it that way [/b][/quote]
    Schilling and Foulke Vs Vazquez and the loss of their best pitcher.

    My bad, you&#39;re right. The yanks have made the better moves. Cough.

  6. #6
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    Originally posted by Green Jets & Ham+Dec 13 2003, 10:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Green Jets & Ham @ Dec 13 2003, 10:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--ScottishJet@Dec 13 2003, 09:37 PM
    Here we go lads:

    So far both teams have made significant moves and I think both sides will agree the Red Sox have made the better moves.
    Ummmmm, I don&#39;t agree

    I agree that RSN and their Yankee hating media hacks see it that way, but I don&#39;t see it that way [/b][/quote]
    Who are you?? Freaking Yoda??&#33;&#33; Hmmm bad the sox the are, good are yanks. Overrated I see Schilling and yet much to prove has the young Theo. Mmmmmm. Clouded minds are and soon the dark side will achieve dominance. King of pitchers Brown is but yet you speak still of Andy.

  7. #7
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    Originally posted by ScottishJet@Dec 13 2003, 10:02 PM
    Who is the more accomplished closer Foulke or Rivera? No question it is Mo. The guy has been lights out and is truly the best closer the game has seen. However, last year he wasn&#39;t the most dominant. He has had problems with injuries the last couple of years and that has dramaticaly affected the yankees. I see no coincidence in that with the yanks not winning World Series, i see it as being directly a factor. When Mo is on and is healthy, the yanks are very hard to beat. However, the last couple of years the yanks armour has been weakened due to Rivera&#39;s drop in performance. Last year Foulke was the #1 closer in the American League. There is no disputing that. So yeah, based on career totals Rivera is the best closer, and I don&#39;t see anyone coming close to him anytime soon. But you have to admit that Red Sox have signed a legitimate hammer to close games.
    HOLD ON A SECOND

    When last we saw Mariano he was blowing hitters away in the post season ... absolutely anihilating them ... and for the season he posted his all-time lowest ERA

    When last we saw Keith Faulke he was blowing the lead in what could have been an ALDS clincher verses the Red Sox

    Me thinks rumors of Mariano&#39;s demise are GREATLY EXAGERATED

  8. #8
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    Originally posted by Green Jets & Ham+Dec 13 2003, 10:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Green Jets & Ham @ Dec 13 2003, 10:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--ScottishJet@Dec 13 2003, 10:02 PM
    Who is the more accomplished closer Foulke or Rivera? No question it is Mo. The guy has been lights out and is truly the best closer the game has seen. However, last year he wasn&#39;t the most dominant. He has had problems with injuries the last couple of years and that has dramaticaly affected the yankees. I see no coincidence in that with the yanks not winning World Series, i see it as being directly a factor. When Mo is on and is healthy, the yanks are very hard to beat. However, the last couple of years the yanks armour has been weakened due to Rivera&#39;s drop in performance. Last year Foulke was the #1 closer in the American League. There is no disputing that. So yeah, based on career totals Rivera is the best closer, and I don&#39;t see anyone coming close to him anytime soon. But you have to admit that Red Sox have signed a legitimate hammer to close games.
    HOLD ON A SECOND

    When last we saw Mariano he was blowing hitters away in the post season ... absolutely anihilating them ... and for the season he posted his all-time lowest ERA

    When last we saw Keith Faulke he was blowing the lead in what could have been an ALDS clincher verses the Red Sox

    Me thinks rumors of Mariano&#39;s demise are GREATLY EXAGERATED [/b][/quote]
    Here lies the problem with stats.

    You are right. But by your own argument we could say that the Red Sox bullpen was lights out as it was during the post seaosn. Was that a fair reflection to its 2003 season?

    But if you read my post again you will see me acknowledge that when Rivera is on then the yanks are very hard to beat.

  9. #9
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    Scot, when I look at the off-season I am counting the following for the Yankees ... all of which is either done or the entire civilized world knows will BE DONE any moment now

    Kevin Brown
    Javier Vazquez
    Tom Gordon
    Paul Quantrill
    Gary Sheffield or Vlad Guerrero {likely Shef}
    Kenny Lofton

    Not a bad haul for starters ... and I&#39;ll be damned if I would call what the Sox have done thus far "clearly better"

  10. #10
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    Originally posted by Green Jets & Ham@Dec 13 2003, 10:13 PM
    Scot, when I look at the off-season I am counting the following for the Yankees ... all of which is either done or the entire civilized world knows will BE DONE any moment now

    Kevin Brown
    Javier Vazquez
    Tom Gordon
    Paul Quantrill
    Gary Sheffield or Vlad Guerrero {likely Shef}
    Kenny Lofton

    Not a bad haul for starters ... and I&#39;ll be damned if I would call what the Sox have done thus far "clearly better"
    Vazquez is clearly your greatest addition. I am truly envious of that pick up.
    Flash was good, but may still be useful.
    Quantrill is a cold medicine.
    Shef I like.
    Lofton has a little David Justice quality, but is nothing outstanding.

    I have said all along (and you can go check my posts), that I feel the yanks are still very strong. I see all this 1918 and anti-Red Sox stuff as a direct indication that for once the Boston franchise looks to be in good hands. Nothing will be proven until ball is played next year, but for now it is abundantly clear that Red Sox are holding their own and have landed the bigger fish so far.

  11. #11
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    Scot, I&#39;m not only counting the post season for Rivera

    The man pitched to a microscopic 1.66 ERA in 2003 ... HIS ALL-TIME LOW&#33;&#33;

    Foulke had an outstanding season in 2003 ... his best ever ... and his ERA was 2.08

    You know how many times Mariano has matched or topped that in his career?

    FIVE ... FIVE TIMES ... and that was Foulke&#39;s BEST YEAR

  12. #12
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    Scot, let me say this ... I agree with your assessment that both teams have done themselves well

    I also agree that the Red Sox have done VERY WELL for themselves ... even outstanding

    I believe the arguement about who has done better is RAZOR THIN ... you can argue it either way

    But this media perception that the Yankees are having a terrible off-season while the Red Sox are lighting the world on fire is TOTAL BS

    Trust me my friend, even the media in NY hates George Steinbrenner ... they might hate him even more than the Boston media ... they are ALWAYS looking for an opportunity to pounce

    That&#39;s what you&#39;re seeing here ... cause the Yankees are moving in another direction {NOT NECESSARILY WORSE}, the media has all jumped on the "George has spit the bit" bandwagon

    By I gave you the list ... you saw the list of INCOMING ... how in the world can anyone who is being even halfway fair not be even a little bit impressed?

    I&#39;m gonna let you in on a secret ... I believe these additions {along with the losses} makes us a BETTER TEAM

    JMO

  13. #13
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    Brown may be a ML a-hole. But he pitched more innings than Pettitte. ANd had a much lower ERA. I&#39;d agree that he&#39;ll be moving into a better hitter&#39;s park and he&#39;ll be facing DHs. But he was the best starter in the NL last year, and he had almsot zero run support. If you want to say the same things about Schilling, he alomoving into a much better hiiter&#39;s park and a league with the DH. ANd he hasn&#39;t really been all that dominant. In fact, in a pitcher&#39;s home park, he gives up a lot of homers. He&#39;s a bit younger than Brown(and born in Alaska-who knew?). Schilling is a nicer man, but Brown is now a better pitcher.

    Schilling- 17 HRS in 168 innings;
    Brown- 11 HRs in 211 innings


    Brown&#39;s stats-

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/brownke01.shtml

    Schilling&#39;s stats

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/schilcu01.shtml

  14. #14
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    Originally posted by Green Jets & Ham@Dec 13 2003, 10:32 PM
    Scot, let me say this ... I agree with your assessment that both teams have done themselves well

    I also agree that the Red Sox have done VERY WELL for themselves ... even outstanding

    I believe the arguement about who has done better is RAZOR THIN ... you can argue it either way

    But this media perception that the Yankees are having a terrible off-season while the Red Sox are lighting the world on fire is TOTAL BS

    Trust me my friend, even the media in NY hates George Steinbrenner ... they might hate him even more than the Boston media ... they are ALWAYS looking for an opportunity to pounce

    That&#39;s what you&#39;re seeing here ... cause the Yankees are moving in another direction {NOT NECESSARILY WORSE}, the media has all jumped on the "George has spit the bit" bandwagon

    By I gave you the list ... you saw the list of INCOMING ... how in the world can anyone who is being even halfway fair not be even a little bit impressed?

    I&#39;m gonna let you in on a secret ... I believe these additions {along with the losses} makes us a BETTER TEAM

    JMO
    GJ&H you are hearing me but not listening. I&#39;ve said all along the yanks have made strong additions. My point is that the volume of yankee abuse towards the Red Sox is a direct reflection on the strength of the Red Sox organization in terms of beating the yanks to players during this off season, but mostly a relection of how well prepared and better run this Red Sox franchise is. Smarter heads seem to be in place. The proof will always be in a World Series title, however.

    No matter how we all spin this, it is only ever going to be settled next season. But for now we&#39;re enjoying the best offseason in a very long while.

  15. #15
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    The media is making the Sawx out to be their darlings&#33;&#33;


    Let me tell you something......unless Terry Francona is some kind of miracle worker..AND..Manny and Nomah are still on the roster....the chemistry in that locker room will be HORRIBLE&#33;&#33;&#33;

    Also.....no way..NO WAY do the Sawx hitters have career years once again&#33;&#33;


    This is why I love Sawx fans......they get over hearache....year after year...but that bubble will burst once again&#33;&#33;



    Pathetic.....will they ever learn?

  16. #16
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    Originally posted by Green Jets & Ham+Dec 13 2003, 10:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Green Jets & Ham @ Dec 13 2003, 10:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--ScottishJet@Dec 13 2003, 10:02 PM
    Who is the more accomplished closer Foulke or Rivera? No question it is Mo. The guy has been lights out and is truly the best closer the game has seen. However, last year he wasn&#39;t the most dominant. He has had problems with injuries the last couple of years and that has dramaticaly affected the yankees. I see no coincidence in that with the yanks not winning World Series, i see it as being directly a factor. When Mo is on and is healthy, the yanks are very hard to beat. However, the last couple of years the yanks armour has been weakened due to Rivera&#39;s drop in performance. Last year Foulke was the #1 closer in the American League. There is no disputing that. So yeah, based on career totals Rivera is the best closer, and I don&#39;t see anyone coming close to him anytime soon. But you have to admit that Red Sox have signed a legitimate hammer to close games.
    HOLD ON A SECOND

    When last we saw Mariano he was blowing hitters away in the post season ... absolutely anihilating them ... and for the season he posted his all-time lowest ERA

    When last we saw Keith Faulke he was blowing the lead in what could have been an ALDS clincher verses the Red Sox

    Me thinks rumors of Mariano&#39;s demise are GREATLY EXAGERATED [/b][/quote]
    GJ&H:
    I argued that back in May and June when they said that Mariano was done. As far as Scottish saying that the Yankees stopped winning WS because of Rivera that makes no sense. He is the best postseason reliever of all time. He is one of the best post season performers of all time.

    How is any of this his fault?

  17. #17
    Maxman
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    Originally posted by ScottishJet@Dec 13 2003, 10:19 PM
    Lofton has a little David Justice quality, but is nothing outstanding.
    The one area that Lofton really helps the Yankees is with the lineup. They will now have a true leadoff hitter, allowing Soriano to move down and drive in some runs. This is huge, don&#39;t undersestimate its importance.

  18. #18
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    Originally posted by Maxman+Dec 15 2003, 10:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maxman @ Dec 15 2003, 10:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--ScottishJet@Dec 13 2003, 10:19 PM
    Lofton has a little David Justice quality, but is nothing outstanding.
    The one area that Lofton really helps the Yankees is with the lineup. They will now have a true leadoff hitter, allowing Soriano to move down and drive in some runs. This is huge, don&#39;t undersestimate its importance. [/b][/quote]
    Won&#39;t Soriano have to learn to stop swinging at every pitch first??

  19. #19
    Maxman
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    Originally posted by jets5ever+Dec 15 2003, 11:26 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (jets5ever @ Dec 15 2003, 11:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
    Originally posted by -Maxman@Dec 15 2003, 10:19 AM
    <!--QuoteBegin--ScottishJet
    @Dec 13 2003, 10:19 PM
    Lofton has a little David Justice quality, but is nothing outstanding.

    The one area that Lofton really helps the Yankees is with the lineup. They will now have a true leadoff hitter, allowing Soriano to move down and drive in some runs. This is huge, don&#39;t undersestimate its importance.
    Won&#39;t Soriano have to learn to stop swinging at every pitch first?? [/b][/quote]
    Donnie Baseball will make sure of that.

    In all seriousness Soriano always liked the first pitch (ala Nomar). But that really didn&#39;t become a huge problem until this past offseason. Once teams realized that they could roll it and he would still swing, that hurt his chances of making contact.

  20. #20
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    Originally posted by ScottishJet@Dec 13 2003, 10:02 PM
    Who is the more accomplished closer Foulke or Rivera? No question it is Mo. The guy has been lights out and is truly the best closer the game has seen. However, last year he wasn&#39;t the most dominant. He has had problems with injuries the last couple of years and that has dramaticaly affected the yankees. I see no coincidence in that with the yanks not winning World Series, i see it as being directly a factor. When Mo is on and is healthy, the yanks are very hard to beat. However, the last couple of years the yanks armour has been weakened due to Rivera&#39;s drop in performance. Last year Foulke was the #1 closer in the American League. There is no disputing that. So yeah, based on career totals Rivera is the best closer, and I don&#39;t see anyone coming close to him anytime soon. But you have to admit that Red Sox have signed a legitimate hammer to close games.
    You have to be kidding. Rivera last season, especially in Sept and Oct., was a dominant as he ever was. Ask the Twins, Sox and Marlins about him.

    You are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy off base with this one.

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