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Thread: Saddam's trial

  1. #1
    OK they got Saddam - great.

    however Any trial is bound to put the US on trial as well - why?

    in 1968 the US supported Saddam's Coup. Throughout the 80's we covertly propped Saddam up and sold him a ton of arms during the Iran/Iraq conflict.

    these are facts, gentlemen. Over here we might be willing to overlook these truths in patriotic support of the President - however over there, in an anti-American region of the world these will not be facts easily swept under the rug.

    We as a nation made Saddam what he was. When the Cold War ended we left him high and dry a heavily armed, meglomanical and possible INSANE military dictator.

    All the crimes he committed in the 80's against his people were committed during a period when he was DIRECTLY SUPPORTED by the United States.

    The gas for the Kurds? Sold to him by US weapons makers with a licence granted by the Secretary of State.

    The guns and money that were in the end symbols of Saddam's failed pillars of power will in any trial be traced back to the US.

    Also - look at the milosevic hearings - that happy crappy is still going on with no end in sight. International beaurcacy at its worst - Saddam won't be brought to justice for another decade at the least.

    It would have been better for everyone if they did toss that grenade down the hole.

  2. #2
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    Wherever it's held, the trial of Saddam Hussein gonna be the mother of all trials.

    IMO it would be in the best national security interests of the United States to have Saddam Hussein tried at the United Nations tribunal in The Hague, Netherlands.

    The time has come for the United States to begin to systematically lower it's profile in Iraq.

  3. #3
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    Screw the Hague. Milosevic has turned his trial into a complete farce. Weasley Clark is testifying this week. Slobbo's attorney must be having a field day with The General's smiling hat-swapping photo op with Slobbo back in the day.

    Shoot Saddam full of the best sodium penathol or it's equivalent the CIA has, deprive him of sleep, make him hot and cold and disorient him without torturing him, pump the bastid for all the intelligence they can get and when they're done, turn him over to the Iraqis for their own trial, followed by a lovely Mussolini/Ceacescu finale.

  4. #4
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Bugg[/i]@Dec 17 2003, 04:25 PM
    [b] Screw the Hague. Milosevic has turned his trial into a complete farce. [/b][/quote]
    I disagree. You can't judge a trial until the verdict is in. Patience is the key.

  5. #5
    my initial post is assuming the US actually adhere to the international law convention - which they likely won't since they have no respect for it.

    here's a nice little excerpt by Geov Parrish RE: the US precidence for putting dictators on trial.

    [quote][b]When concerning the fate of political leaders who have allegedly killed hundreds of thousands of their own (or anyone's) people -- crimes properly called "crimes against humanity" -- the global community now has a procedure in place for international trials. The United States, under Clinton and now Bush, has refused to honor it, concerned that a truly impartial process could reflect poorly on American foreign policy and its leaders.

    It's easy to understand why, given that we've just completed what is referred to in various quarters as "The American Century" and/or "The bloodiest century in human history." Among its more genocidal names, most recently we have Slobodan Milosevic, whisked off to a show trial of the NATO variety. His defense -- a tawdry list of American and European administrations, arms financiers, and corporations that sold to and winked at the Serb butcher during the brutal ten years between his 1989 annexation of Kosovo and his toppling by Belgrade crowds in 2000 -- was largely absent from American media.

    There is the recent ordeal of Augusto Pinochet, the Chilean dictator installed in a Sep. 11, 1973 coup backed by Nixon, Kissinger, the CIA, and the American mining company Anaconda, a man detained in the late '90s by Spanish and British judges until "poor health" and heavy American diplomatic pressure arranged for his return to Chile, exempt from trial.

    There is Efrain Rios Montt, the general who led a Reagan-backed 1981 military coup to "restore democracy" to Guatemala, who instead delivered, in a mere 16 months of power, some 70,000 mostly indigenous corpses. A total of 200,000 were slaughtered by U.S.-backed regimes during three decades of civil war following the 1954 CIA coup ousting a democratically elected Jacobo Arbenez. The agents of Montt's death included numerous graduates, like Montt, of the U.S. Army's "School of the Americas" and its infamous CIA torture manuals; his diplomatic cover included the U.S. embassy in Guatemala, which issued a 1982 report dismissing as commie disiformation emerging claims of genocide -- while 440 Mayan villages were being eradicated from the face of the planet in a systematic scorched earth campaign. Pres. Reagan, in signing a 1982 waiver allowing continuing arms sales to the Guatemalan generals, insisted that Montt was being given a "bum rap" and was "totally dedicated to democracy."

    Today, instead of being in jail, Montt is President of Guatemala's Congress and recently placed third in an unsuccessful campaign for president. Because he also retires from Congress next month, the 65-year-old Montt will lose diplomatic immunity (!) against accusations of war crimes now pending in both Spanish and Guatemalan courts. It will be interesting to see if the Bush Administration pursues him with anything approaching the zeal of its "justice" for Saddam.

    It's a safe bet not. The people who aided Montt -- and the equally murderous 1980s death squads in El Salvador, and ones from then until today in Colombia -- now pepper Bush 43's foreign policy establishment. One of them, Donald Rumsfeld, also helped seal the 1988 deal that sent military aid to Saddam Hussein, even as reports of the gas attacks emerged.

    And so the bodies go. It is this sort of 50-year-history that is remembered by much of the world, rather than the triumph of capturing Saddam Hussein. [b]As with the Taliban, Saddam's depredations were of no concern to Washington until he proved no longer useful. As with all the past Latin American juntas in our hemisphere, the bulk of remaining despots in the world that now rule over Muslim countries do so with U.S. aid -- assistance to regimes like Egypt and Saudi Arabia and to former pariahs like Pakistan or Uzbekistan, converted post-9/11, to subservient U.S. allies. There's also Africa, from the trail of past and present dictators, to decades of support for apartheid South Africa, to the willful refusal to block bloodshed in Rwanda, the Sudan and the Congo, and now Nigeria. There's the two million dead in Southeast Asia, in Vietnam and Cambodia and Laos, many of them under the command of Nixon and Kissinger. And, hovering above it all for every Muslim, there lies the U.S. backing for Israel's illegal, 35-year military occupation and subjugation of Palestine -- a subjugation that began, ironically, at almost exactly the same time the CIA backed Saddam's rise to Ba'athist power. [/b]

    With this history, born of blood and convenience, it's reasonable to assume that many, many Iraqis will be extremely dubious as to the ability or willingness of Washington to use a trial of Saddam Hussein for anything other than a cynical foreign policy showpiece.
    [/b][/quote]

  6. #6
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    America is awful and should be blamed for everything - we get it.

  7. #7
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    I'm so guilt-ridden. Shoulda stayed in bed, lest I perpetuate any more evil hegemony. If only we could run naked in the fields and forage for nuts and berries. Which would suck without any Bud tins chillin' on ice.

    [url=http://www.crichton-official.com/speeches/speeches_quote05.html]http://www.crichton-official.com/speeches/...es_quote05.html[/url]

  8. #8
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by tailgators[/i]@Dec 17 2003, 04:06 PM
    [b] The time has come for the United States to begin to systematically lower it's profile in Iraq. [/b][/quote]
    More like the time has come for liberals to lower their profile in America.

    You guys like to believe we created the monster, well George Bush destroyed him -- with NO help friom the UN, the Hague or you lilly livered liberals.

  9. #9
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Spirit of Weeb[/i]@Dec 17 2003, 05:06 PM
    [b] You guys like to believe we created the monster, well George Bush destroyed him. [/b][/quote]
    You mean they captured Osama bin Laden?

  10. #10
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by tailgators+Dec 17 2003, 05:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (tailgators @ Dec 17 2003, 05:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Spirit of Weeb[/i]@Dec 17 2003, 05:06 PM
    [b] You guys like to believe we created the monster, well George Bush destroyed him. [/b][/quote]
    You mean they captured Osama bin Laden? [/b][/quote]
    According to Sir Dr. Madeline Albright, a democrat -- so it must be true.

  11. #11
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by tailgators+Dec 17 2003, 04:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (tailgators @ Dec 17 2003, 04:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Bugg[/i]@Dec 17 2003, 04:25 PM
    [b] Screw the Hague. Milosevic has turned his trial into a complete farce. [/b][/quote]
    I disagree. You can&#39;t judge a trial until the verdict is in. Patience is the key. [/b][/quote]
    but no death penalty in hague...the iraq people have already stated they want him to face the death penalty....it woul dmake sense to try him somewhere where the iraqi peoples wishes counted more than non iraqis...

  12. #12
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    Exactly - Saddam&#39;s crimes were against Iraqis, not some nebulous concept like "humanity." He&#39;s their prisoner, they should decide his fate, IMO.


    BTW - A majority of Europeans, when polled, favor the death penatly. Their governments are just less representative then ours, the government can largely thrust anti-death penalty laws onto them, subverting their will.

    (Incidentally, I am against the death penalty as well...although it is one of the few issues where my opinion isn&#39;t quite that strong..I can honestly see both sides)

  13. #13
    [quote][i]Originally posted by jets5ever[/i]@Dec 17 2003, 04:56 PM
    [b] America is awful and should be blamed for everything - we get it. [/b][/quote]
    5ever cmon i never said that -

    however the fact remains Saddam was put into power by the US and was supported during his period of worst crimes against the Iraqi people. If you are going to put Saddam on trial for what he did in 1980&#39;s then its impossible to NOT put the US on trial as well for putting him there in the first place.

    how can you brush aside a mountain of evidence, time and time again the US has supported brutal dictators all over the world with that "America is awful" - at best its dismissive - at worst, condecending.

  14. #14
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti+Dec 18 2003, 02:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (bitonti @ Dec 18 2003, 02:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--jets5ever[/i]@Dec 17 2003, 04:56 PM
    [b] America is awful and should be blamed for everything - we get it. [/b][/quote]
    5ever cmon i never said that -

    however the fact remains Saddam was put into power by the US and was supported during his period of worst crimes against the Iraqi people. If you are going to put Saddam on trial for what he did in 1980&#39;s then its impossible to NOT put the US on trial as well for putting him there in the first place.

    how can you brush aside a mountain of evidence, time and time again the US has supported brutal dictators all over the world with that "America is awful" - at best its dismissive - at worst, condecending. [/b][/quote]
    Stop posting recycled garbage...I thought you were smarter than that.

    Saddam came to power on his own -- the US had nothing to do with it. Look it up (besides recycling talking points from moveon.org).

    Also, during the Iran/Iraq war, the US considered Iran more of a threat. And with good reason, it was just after the hostage crisis and America deamed the Ayatollah the worse of two evils. The support America gave Saddam was conventional weapons - guns, bombs, missiles, NOT nuclear, NOT biological, NOT chemical.

    The country you despise so much, Israel, had the balls to destroy an Iraqi nuke facility. The UN and the world cried bloody murder about that, but how many military and civilian lives did that save in the long run?

    The UN, France, Germany and Russia supplied Saddam with money and technology, even while it was banned by the very organization lining his pockets. At that time, there was no doubt about Saddam&#39;s character. After he invaded a neighbor. After he gassed his people. After he signed a treaty. And after he violated just about every resolution the UN threw at him.

    So I ask you, who is more complacent in the support of Saddam?

  15. #15
    Weeb its a proven fact that the US Sold Iraq MANY items that they used to enhance their biological and nuclear weapons program.

    Here&#39;s a little tidbit that you won&#39;t get from FOXNEWS

    [url=http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/medsearch/FocusAreas/riegle_report/report/report_index.htm]http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/medsearch/Focu...eport_index.htm[/url]

    first paragraph of the Riegle Report aka

    "U.S. Chemical and Biological Warfare-Related Dual Use Exports to Iraq and Their Possible Impact on the Health Consequences of the Persian Gulf War."

    [quote][b]In October 1992, the Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs, which has Senate oversight responsibility for the Export Administration Act (EAA), held an Inquiry into the U.S. export policy to Iraq prior to the Persian Gulf War. [b]During that hearing it was learned that UN inspectors identified many U.S.- manufactured items exported pursuant to licenses issued by the U.S. Department of Commerce that were used to further Iraq&#39;s chemical and nuclear weapons development and missile delivery system development programs.[/b]
    [/b][/quote]

    Report created May 25, 1994.

    Yet again Facts fall to the wayside in favor of Propoganda.

    Honestly Weeb i am jealous of your ability to plunge your head so deeply into the sand that everything our nation does is morally blameless. It must be nice to believe that the US is always right - sorta like a kid waiting for santa claus on Xmas eve. Awww, how touching. <_<

  16. #16
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    Getting back to the trial.

    What would be so wrong about letting the UN handle Saddam Hussein&#39;s trial in The Hague. Why should the U.S. have to do the heavy lifting all by ourselves? Considering all of the costs, ramifications and dangers of a trial in Iraq, I&#39;d just as soon let this cup pass.

    On the other hand if the U.S. ever captures Osama bin Laden, he should be tried in the U.S. Federal Court in Manhattan. Why? Because unlike Saddam Hussein he actually was the mastermind of an attack right here in the United States.

  17. #17
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by tailgators[/i]@Dec 18 2003, 03:34 PM
    [b] Getting back to the trial.

    What would be so wrong about letting the UN handle Saddam Hussein&#39;s trial in The Hague. Why should the U.S. have to do the heavy lifting all by ourselves? Considering all of the costs, ramifications and dangers of a trial in Iraq, I&#39;d just as soon let this cup pass.

    On the other hand if the U.S. ever captures Osama bin Laden, he should be tried in the U.S. Federal Court in Manhattan. Why? Because unlike Saddam Hussein he actually was the mastermind of an attack right here in the United States. [/b][/quote]
    Wrong again.

    If you set a world precedent with Saddam, then the world will cry foul if Osama is tried here (and he should be). And Saddam should be tried there -- that&#39;s only fair to the victims.

    Let&#39;s all hope a well place bullet or bomb renders this debate about Osama moot.

  18. #18
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Spirit of Weeb[/i]@Dec 18 2003, 03:42 PM
    [b] Let&#39;s all hope a well place bullet or bomb renders this debate about Osama moot. [/b][/quote]
    On that we&#39;re in total agreement.

  19. #19
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@Dec 18 2003, 03:18 PM
    [b] Honestly Weeb i am jealous of your ability to plunge your head so deeply into the sand that everything our nation does is morally blameless. It must be nice to believe that the US is always right - sorta like a kid waiting for santa claus on Xmas eve. Awww, how touching. [/b][/quote]
    Quick, put on your tin foil hat&#33; Note the words "dual use".

    Harmless chemicals such as chlorine bleach and ammonia window cleaner could kill you where you stand. Guys like Saddam and Osama could probably find a way to make a lollipop lethal. Bin Laden probably uses cell phones and computers made here too. So what?

    That&#39;s why the best way to neutralize threats like this is to TAKE THEM OUT.

    So put America on trial. That&#39;s what the UN wants, that what our enemies want and that&#39;s what you liberals want. And you all claim to be so patriotic.

    By the way, how is it you live in such an evil country, bitonti? That makes you a part of the worlds problem.

  20. #20
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by tailgators[/i]@Dec 18 2003, 03:52 PM
    [b] On that we&#39;re in total agreement. [/b][/quote]
    On the Jets, too.

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