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Thread: Drug Wars

  1. #1
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    [url=http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/bandow200312190920.asp]http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/band...00312190920.asp[/url]



    Thoughts??

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by jets5ever[/i]@Dec 19 2003, 09:27 PM
    [b] [url=http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/bandow200312190920.asp]http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/band...00312190920.asp[/url]



    Thoughts?? [/b][/quote]
    It's a difficult topic.

    Most (not all) of the countries mentioned at the top have socialized medicine (which is a nightmare many who experienced it have told me). There would be a large temptation for some doctors on this side to prescribe weed for someone's "hay fever" or "psoriasis" because his buddy wants to smoke pot.

    I don't think pot should be legal even in small amounts. I definitely don't agree with this paragraph:

    [i]Why government tosses pot smokers in jail while tolerating use of alcohol and cigarettes, far more dangerous substances by most measures, has never been obvious. [/i]

    I can drink a beer and it won't effect me. In fact I can drink three beers and it probably wouldn't effect me the way smoking half a joint would (haven't smoke it since my college days 18 years ago and it did nothing for me then). The fact is if someone drinks too much alcohol they can be jailed for a number of reasons.

  3. #3
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    Come Back -

    Do you think that jailing people for possession is a smart thing to do, especially in light of the costs involved?

    Certainly, you can get drunk and be a danger to others. But that is outside the issue. You cannot get arrested for merely [i]possessing [/i]alcohol (if you are of age) and you cannot get arrested for drinking a beer, but similar penalties exist for marijuana - possession and smoking. You can certainly get a D&D if you are causing a scene and being a public nusiance, but safeguards like that can easily be incorporated were pot to become legal...just call it a H&D, although making a 9-1-1 call to complain about someone who is "high and creating a loud disturbence" seems unlikely to this guy ;) . Also - instead of a "open container" law, weed could have a 'pariphenalia (sp?)' law, where it is illegal to have a bowl, bong or rolled joint in a vehicle, or something like that. Legalizing safe, private, personal use is what I am talking about - put an age limit of 21 on it, if need be. I see no need for "hash bars" to exist a la Amsterdam, but that should really be up to each municipality, IMO.

    Seriously, though, as with alcohol, marijuana use should be up to the individual to moderate, IMO. Driving while intoxicated should 100% include driving while high...no doubt and there are any number of tests readily available to calculate the THC level in a perp. The government could tax the hell out of it and all that jazz.

    The true fact is that it is completely arbitrary that alcohol is legal and pot is not (and not too long ago, this was actually reversed in this country). There is a major black market in weed and a lot of violent crime is associated with it - perhaps legalization would ameliorate this issue.

  4. #4
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    maybe this is urban legend... but i think the weed thing goes back to the days when people were deciding what to print newspapers on. Hemp paper was real popular and was going to be used instead of tree paper - and that's when the traditional paper-makers started to spread rumors about "reefer" causing people to go on axe murderer sprees and what not. Hemp was actually lauded as a high quality crop by many of the founding fathers, including but not limited to George Washington and Ben Franklin. You can do a hell of a lot with it, besides paper and smoking the buds you can make clothes, rope, and about a million other things.

    Its just some cultural bull**** remaining from the 1820's that weed is illegal. These days the status quo is perpetuated by alcohol lobby, if weed was legalized their business would go in the crapper. Cotton, Paper industries also are threatened for reasons discussed above.

  5. #5
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@Dec 29 2003, 02:53 PM
    [b] maybe this is urban legend... but i think the weed thing goes back to the days when people were deciding what to print newspapers on. Hemp paper was real popular and was going to be used instead of tree paper - and that's when the traditional paper-makers started to spread rumors about "reefer" causing people to go on axe murderer sprees and what not. Hemp was actually lauded as a high quality crop by many of the founding fathers, including but not limited to George Washington and Ben Franklin. You can do a hell of a lot with it, besides paper and smoking the buds you can make clothes, rope, and about a million other things.

    Its just some cultural bull**** remaining from the 1820's that weed is illegal. These days the status quo is perpetuated by alcohol lobby, if weed was legalized their business would go in the crapper. Cotton, Paper industries also are threatened for reasons discussed above. [/b][/quote]
    Weed was legal well after the 1820's. I'll search around for a link to back this up when I get home (not at work!)

    You're right though - it's arbitrary (at best) bullsh*t.

  6. #6
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    Careful guys snoopy shakin is lurking to see what type of language your using.

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    [i]Do you think that jailing people for possession is a smart thing to do, especially in light of the costs involved?[/i]

    The law is the law. Personally I would think it depends on the amount and prior history of the person who possesed it.

    [i]Certainly, you can get drunk and be a danger to others. But that is outside the issue. You cannot get arrested for merely possessing alcohol (if you are of age) and you cannot get arrested for drinking a beer, but similar penalties exist for marijuana - possession and smoking. [/i]

    Not totally true as you've answered...in many states if you have an open container of alcohol in public or in a car you can get a summons or arrested. Also, if someone is showing the effects of being drunk either behind the wheel or in public they can get arrested...I've never heard of anyone being busted for showing the effects of smoking weed.

    [i]The true fact is that it is completely arbitrary that alcohol is legal and pot is not (and not too long ago, this was actually reversed in this country). There is a major black market in weed and a lot of violent crime is associated with it - perhaps legalization would ameliorate this issue. [/i]

    The alter arguement to that is weed would lead to the use of stronger, more lethal drugs.

    Again, its' a tough call...its' not for me and I don't believe in it yet were someone I knew stricken with cateracts or cancer or something whose pain could be relieved by smoking weed I could understand using it.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Come Back to NY[/i]@Dec 29 2003, 03:37 PM
    [b] [i]Do you think that jailing people for possession is a smart thing to do, especially in light of the costs involved?[/i]

    The law is the law. Personally I would think it depends on the amount and prior history of the person who possesed it.

    [i]Certainly, you can get drunk and be a danger to others. But that is outside the issue. You cannot get arrested for merely possessing alcohol (if you are of age) and you cannot get arrested for drinking a beer, but similar penalties exist for marijuana - possession and smoking. [/i]

    Not totally true as you've answered...in many states if you have an open container of alcohol in public or in a car you can get a summons or arrested. Also, if someone is showing the effects of being drunk either behind the wheel or in public they can get arrested...I've never heard of anyone being busted for showing the effects of smoking weed.

    [i]The true fact is that it is completely arbitrary that alcohol is legal and pot is not (and not too long ago, this was actually reversed in this country). There is a major black market in weed and a lot of violent crime is associated with it - perhaps legalization would ameliorate this issue. [/i]

    The alter arguement to that is weed would lead to the use of stronger, more lethal drugs.

    Again, its' a tough call...its' not for me and I don't believe in it yet were someone I knew stricken with cateracts or cancer or something whose pain could be relieved by smoking weed I could understand using it. [/b][/quote]
    Come Back -

    Do you think alcohol is a "stepping stone drug?" How many people who smoke weed do you think DIDN'T drink alcohol first? Probably not many. The Gateway Drug argument is specious, IMO, because it does not address alcohol as well. Again, this is evidence that the distinction between the two is arbitrary at best, or, at worst fueled by a powerful booze lobby and the very true fact and "lesson learned" that prohibition just didn't work and that, legal or not, demand cannot be stifled. I think we are seeing the same thing happening with weed. The demand is there and even getting bigger and I think that at the very least it should be de-criminallized. Possession should be a fine, similar to a traffic ticket. Yes, repeat offenders can have stiffer penalties, so someone's history is very germane, but the cost of the mandatory sentencing movement has been an astronomical failure. (Also, there are threshholds for "possession with intent to distribute" that apply - so a guy caught driving a truckload of 200 pounds can't argue that he's merely really into getting high - he would be charged as a "dealer.")

    I think that were the situation reversed - that is, if weed were legal and alcohol illegal - you'd be telling me that "the law is the law" and that alcohol was a stepping stone drug and all. I'll never forget a telling moment from college - I was smoking with a few buddies and this girl (drunk off her t*ts) stumbles in to the room thinking it's the bathroom. My buddy offers her a hit and she says, "I don't touch that stuff, I'm not a [i]druggie[/i]!!" Then she proceeded to puke all over herself. Hilarious. Yeah - WE'RE the ones with problem, honey....

    Again, I fee that it is arbitrary and fully admit that my history of using and your history of not using probably taints this discussion. I just can't really see any rational reason why one is legal and the other isn't. I really can't. In fact, I would argue that booze is far MORE of a threat in many, many ways...but that's just me.

  9. #9
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by jets5ever+Dec 29 2003, 04:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (jets5ever @ Dec 29 2003, 04:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Come Back to NY[/i]@Dec 29 2003, 03:37 PM
    [b] [i]Do you think that jailing people for possession is a smart thing to do, especially in light of the costs involved?[/i]

    The law is the law. Personally I would think it depends on the amount and prior history of the person who possesed it.

    [i]Certainly, you can get drunk and be a danger to others. But that is outside the issue. You cannot get arrested for merely possessing alcohol (if you are of age) and you cannot get arrested for drinking a beer, but similar penalties exist for marijuana - possession and smoking. [/i]

    Not totally true as you&#39;ve answered...in many states if you have an open container of alcohol in public or in a car you can get a summons or arrested. Also, if someone is showing the effects of being drunk either behind the wheel or in public they can get arrested...I&#39;ve never heard of anyone being busted for showing the effects of smoking weed.

    [i]The true fact is that it is completely arbitrary that alcohol is legal and pot is not (and not too long ago, this was actually reversed in this country). There is a major black market in weed and a lot of violent crime is associated with it - perhaps legalization would ameliorate this issue. [/i]

    The alter arguement to that is weed would lead to the use of stronger, more lethal drugs.

    Again, its&#39; a tough call...its&#39; not for me and I don&#39;t believe in it yet were someone I knew stricken with cateracts or cancer or something whose pain could be relieved by smoking weed I could understand using it. [/b][/quote]
    Come Back -

    Do you think alcohol is a "stepping stone drug?" How many people who smoke weed do you think DIDN&#39;T drink alcohol first? Probably not many. The Gateway Drug argument is specious, IMO, because it does not address alcohol as well. Again, this is evidence that the distinction between the two is arbitrary at best, or, at worst fueled by a powerful booze lobby and the very true fact and "lesson learned" that prohibition just didn&#39;t work and that, legal or not, demand cannot be stifled. I think we are seeing the same thing happening with weed. The demand is there and even getting bigger and I think that at the very least it should be de-criminallized. Possession should be a fine, similar to a traffic ticket. Yes, repeat offenders can have stiffer penalties, so someone&#39;s history is very germane, but the cost of the mandatory sentencing movement has been an astronomical failure. (Also, there are threshholds for "possession with intent to distribute" that apply - so a guy caught driving a truckload of 200 pounds can&#39;t argue that he&#39;s merely really into getting high - he would be charged as a "dealer.")

    I think that were the situation reversed - that is, if weed were legal and alcohol illegal - you&#39;d be telling me that "the law is the law" and that alcohol was a stepping stone drug and all. I&#39;ll never forget a telling moment from college - I was smoking with a few buddies and this girl (drunk off her t*ts) stumbles in to the room thinking it&#39;s the bathroom. My buddy offers her a hit and she says, "I don&#39;t touch that stuff, I&#39;m not a [i]druggie[/i]&#33;&#33;" Then she proceeded to puke all over herself. Hilarious. Yeah - WE&#39;RE the ones with problem, honey....

    Again, I fee that it is arbitrary and fully admit that my history of using and your history of not using probably taints this discussion. I just can&#39;t really see any rational reason why one is legal and the other isn&#39;t. I really can&#39;t. In fact, I would argue that booze is far MORE of a threat in many, many ways...but that&#39;s just me. [/b][/quote]
    I know of or heard of more people who started with pot and got into big trouble moving onto coke, etc then someone who started to drink then moved onto other things. Usually people who abuse alcohol go straight from drinking into rehab.

    [i]In fact, I would argue that booze is far MORE of a threat in many, many ways...but that&#39;s just me. [/i]

    That&#39;s probably because you see more people drinking in the open as opposed to smoking pot.

    The fact is people who abuse alcohol would abuse pot, etc, were it legal. I never bought into "alcoholism is a disease" or "drug addiction is a disease"; to me its&#39; just a lack of discipline and self-control.

  10. #10
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Come Back to NY[/i]@Dec 29 2003, 04:16 PM
    [b]
    The fact is people who abuse alcohol would abuse pot, etc, were it legal. I never bought into "alcoholism is a disease" or "drug addiction is a disease"; to me its&#39; just a lack of discipline and self-control. [/b][/quote]
    I don&#39;t know if I necessarily agree with yoiur first sentence, but I appreciate the opinion.

    As far as your second sentence goes, I do mostly agree, in that I do feel that a lack of discipline and self-control is a HUGE part of alcoholism and drug "addiction." Still, regardless of what name we choose to give it, certain substances (alcohol included) DO cause some people to become physically dependent on them. This is just a fact. It matters little what that substance is - booze or weed or blow, however, research has shown that weed is far, far LESS physically addictive than booze or blow or cigarettes, and that is yet ANOTHER argument for legalization.

    Saying something like "alcoholism is hereditary" is an over-simplification, but it is not one to state that children of drunks are more likely to become drunks themselves and it is NOT all due to environment...there are biological and physiological forces at work. Some people have what are commonly referred to as &#39;addictive personalities&#39; and that addiction can be anything from cigarettes, booze, blow, weed or religion. (How many former drug addicts are Born-Again Christians?? To me, they have simply transferred one addiction to another...however, being "addicted" to religion, one would think, is far more preferrable to being addicted to blow or booze.

    Lastly - as far as the stepping stone drugs are concerned, I still disagree slightly. Every person I knew in college who smoked grass or did shrooms or acid or blow started out by drinking and, to a lessar extent, smoking cigarettes. I find it hard to believe that a large percentage of people out there bypass booze, go straight to weed, and then from there go on to harder things. I would think the most common progression would be booze, weed, shrooms/blow. To attach a significance to weed that you would not attach to booze in this "progression" is simply absurd, IMO.

    But I appreciate the discussion, as always, Come Back.

  11. #11
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    Most studies I&#39;ve seen say that cigarettes rather than booze are the gateway drug. No matter-

    Whether the rest of the country knows it or not, the courts at least in New York are already treating this as a public health problem. Most courts today defer everyone except the worst offenderstreatment programs that the court monitors on a monthly basis.To get heavy duty state jail time, you have to be a bad guy dealing heavy weight or have violent felonies on their record. into This idea that some kid with a joint is going to jail for 30 years(or even a year) just isn&#39;t reality. The stick is that if they fail to comply with the program they do go to jail. If they finish the program(ususally in-patient for at leat 18 months) over 2 years, their record is wiped clean of the case. As an aside, over 60% of the people in treament will relapse, and the courts pretty much allow for that.

    Problem I have is that we&#39;re wasting oodles of resources in police and court costs to place legions of drug users in rehab. There has to be a more direct way. Because to have undercover cops risk lfe and limb to put addicts in rehab is a complete waste. We can never completely give up on interdiction, or allow the cartels to openly sell in America. Education as to what drugs do to your mind and the scocial costs have to be done moreso than ever. It would be a big help for everyone to stop pretending that a street level (probably addicted) dealer is going to jail, because he&#39;s not. And the same goes for most users. Nobody with low-level drugs is going for a long stretch. We should get these people into programs , and there are many fo them available that do a good job.

  12. #12
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by jets5ever+Dec 30 2003, 09:20 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (jets5ever @ Dec 30 2003, 09:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Come Back to NY[/i]@Dec 29 2003, 04:16 PM
    [b]
    The fact is people who abuse alcohol would abuse pot, etc, were it legal. I never bought into "alcoholism is a disease" or "drug addiction is a disease"; to me its&#39; just a lack of discipline and self-control. [/b][/quote]
    I don&#39;t know if I necessarily agree with yoiur first sentence, but I appreciate the opinion.

    As far as your second sentence goes, I do mostly agree, in that I do feel that a lack of discipline and self-control is a HUGE part of alcoholism and drug "addiction." Still, regardless of what name we choose to give it, certain substances (alcohol included) DO cause some people to become physically dependent on them. This is just a fact. It matters little what that substance is - booze or weed or blow, however, research has shown that weed is far, far LESS physically addictive than booze or blow or cigarettes, and that is yet ANOTHER argument for legalization.

    Saying something like "alcoholism is hereditary" is an over-simplification, but it is not one to state that children of drunks are more likely to become drunks themselves and it is NOT all due to environment...there are biological and physiological forces at work. Some people have what are commonly referred to as &#39;addictive personalities&#39; and that addiction can be anything from cigarettes, booze, blow, weed or religion. (How many former drug addicts are Born-Again Christians?? To me, they have simply transferred one addiction to another...however, being "addicted" to religion, one would think, is far more preferrable to being addicted to blow or booze.

    Lastly - as far as the stepping stone drugs are concerned, I still disagree slightly. Every person I knew in college who smoked grass or did shrooms or acid or blow started out by drinking and, to a lessar extent, smoking cigarettes. I find it hard to believe that a large percentage of people out there bypass booze, go straight to weed, and then from there go on to harder things. I would think the most common progression would be booze, weed, shrooms/blow. To attach a significance to weed that you would not attach to booze in this "progression" is simply absurd, IMO.

    But I appreciate the discussion, as always, Come Back. [/b][/quote]
    I think a lot of it is mental dependency as much as anything else.

    I am a workout warrior; three-to-four days a week I&#39;ll usually hop in the pool, swim 50 laps then get out, dry off and go out to run 3.5 miles.

    The statement was not made as a chest beating comment rather I am addicted to working out. Even on Christmas Day; I originally said, "the heck with it, I&#39;m not doing anything today," but about 10AM I realized I needed to get my butt out there and run a few miles to get my day going. I could never imagine a day going by without doing some kind of hard workout for at least 30-45 minutes otherwise I would be mentally shot all day.

    I think in that vane it is similiar to a chemical dependency; the mental need for that "high", whatever it is, is always there.

    [i]Problem I have is that we&#39;re wasting oodles of resources in police and court costs to place legions of drug users in rehab. There has to be a more direct way. Because to have undercover cops risk lfe and limb to put addicts in rehab is a complete waste.[/i]

    Totally agree; my dad was in the NYPD for 23 years, about six of them spent in the SEU-Street Enforcment Unit. His friend was the undercover who bought the drugs and I basically heard horror stories how the poor guy was always looking over his shoulder.

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